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R+L=J v.83


Angalin

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I gotta get me this app. My thanks.

What if Elia approved? She knew she couldn't have more children but if she knew that Rhaegar was determined to have these three in accordance with propechy, then what if she acutally encouraged him to be with Lyanna. Gods that makes her death even more sad.

During Q&A last weekend, GRRM apparently said the relationship between Rhaegar and Elia was "complicated".

That could still mean anything, of course. Just thought I'd mention it.

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I'm going to speak broadly here. This pertains largely to R+L=J, but could also fit other theories, like the valonqar.

I think people obsess too much over the "who" in these sorts of things. "Who is Jon's mother? Who is the valonqar?" When the answers to those questions are hinted at in the books (e.g. it's hinted that Lyanna is Jon's mother and Rhaegar is his father and that Jaime is the valonqar), people create their own backlash to it. "If I was able to figure it out, it must be a false lead! He must be having us on! It can't be that easy!"

I think that at least a few of these mysteries, especially those two, aren't really predicated on the "who," so much as the "why" and the "how." In R+L=J's terms, the great mystery at this point isn't who his parents are (I think we who believe R+L=J can all say that all of the pieces are there for those paying attention and willing to examine them), but it's why they got together, how it happened and what effect it will have on the story. Likewise, if Jaime (or whoever) ends up being the valonqar, the operative conclusion isn't simply the "who" of it, but how it came to pass and why.

In other words, rejecting R+L=J out of a belief that it settles the "who" too easily is probably missing the point of what GRRM is going for. He's not actually hiding anything or using trickery with these clues; we're meant to solve the mystery. It's all the other components that comprise the "real" enigma.

I completely agree, and think this post should be required reading for anyone who likes to participate in the theorizing threads.

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Somewhat off topic but inside the realm of Ned/Robert/Lyanna/Rhaegar/Wyalla pengtagon so I'll just say it.

Nedbert get in serious argument over Rhaegar's kids & Ellia murders by Lannisters. Jon Arryn calms Robert. Ned goes south,

relieving the seize at Storm's End. Goes to Dorne & ToJ happens. Goes to Starfall to return Dawn. Next we find Ned in Winterfell with Jon and his wet nurse. He returned from Dorne (ToJ/Starfall) with Jon. Most possibly he finds Jon at ToJ,Starfall also probable but less so then ToJ.

Now we know Nedbert reconciled over their shared grief for Lyanna

We must assume it happened in KL becoz Ned didnt leave North after Rebellion untill Balon's Rebellion.

Now my question is where was Jon Snow when Nedbert were weeping over Lyanna? If he was in KL Robert must have asked Ned who was his mother. So, did Robert asked and Ned ignored under the excuse of grief or Robert simply didnt ask? Because we have Robert in AGOT complaining to Ned that he never told who was his bastard's mother.

Answering my question myself I'll guess Ned sent Jon North with Howland & Wet Nurse (wyalla a possibility or not?) via Sea Route along east coast of Westeros. This would mean they would enter North via White Harbour. Maybe Howland purposefully (under instructions from Ned) let slip that boy was Ned Stark's bastard. That could explain the rumor regarding fisherman's daugnhter on Sisterton. And it would also give Ned ample time to create a plausible cover story to explain the Bastard if Robert learns about Jon and decides to investigate the matter.

Am I too crackpotting here?

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Somewhat off topic but inside the realm of Ned/Robert/Lyanna/Rhaegar/Wyalla pengtagon so I'll just say it.

Nedbert get in serious argument over Rhaegar's kids & Ellia murders by Lannisters. Jon Arryn calms Robert. Ned goes south,

relieving the seize at Storm's End. Goes to Dorne & ToJ happens. Goes to Starfall to return Dawn. Next we find Ned in Winterfell with Jon and his wet nurse. He returned from Dorne (ToJ/Starfall) with Jon. Most possibly he finds Jon at ToJ,Starfall also probable but less so then ToJ.

Now we know Nedbert reconciled over their shared grief for Lyanna

We must assume it happened in KL becoz Ned didnt leave North after Rebellion untill Balon's Rebellion.

Now my question is where was Jon Snow when Nedbert were weeping over Lyanna? If he was in KL Robert must have asked Ned who was his mother. So, did Robert asked and Ned ignored under the excuse of grief or Robert simply didnt ask? Because we have Robert in AGOT complaining to Ned that he never told who was his bastard's mother.

Answering my question myself I'll guess Ned sent Jon North with Howland & Wet Nurse (wyalla a possibility or not?) via Sea Route along east coast of Westeros. This would mean they would enter North via White Harbour. Maybe Howland purposefully (under instructions from Ned) let slip that boy was Ned Stark's bastard. That could explain the rumor regarding fisherman's daugnhter on Sisterton. And it would also give Ned ample time to create a plausible cover story to explain the Bastard if Robert learns about Jon and decides to investigate the matter.

Am I too crackpotting here?

I suggested White Harbor too a little while back, but someone wonderful (though I'm sorry, I can't remember the username) suggested Greywater Watch. Imagine the confusion if Ned was at KL alone, yet emerged from the Neck with a babe.

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I suggested White Harbor too a little while back, but someone wonderful (though I'm sorry, I can't remember the username) suggested Greywater Watch. Imagine the confusion if Ned was at KL alone, yet emerged from the Neck with a babe.

I think White Harbour is more plausible. It would also dovetail quite nicely with his sea voyage at the start of RR to call his banners & provide good cover story, should he need one in the near future.

How would he father a bastard in Neck. He maybe never entered the Neck. Howland must have met him at Winterfell/Moat Cailin or on Kingsroad before going,to Riverlands.

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I think White Harbour is more plausible. It would also dovetail quite nicely with his sea voyage at the start of RR to call his banners & provide good cover story, should he need one in the near future.

How would he father a bastard in Neck. He maybe never entered the Neck. Howland must have met him at Winterfell/Moat Cailin or on Kingsroad before going,to Riverlands.

Ned travelled through the Neck with his host ;)

But I didn't mean that Ned would want to make it seem he had fathered a bastard in the Neck. What I meant was, Ned leaves KL without a babe, and the next time someone sees him, a lot further north, after crossing the Neck into his own territory, he suddenly has a babe with him. Where did the babe come from? There's a big distance between KL and the borders of the North for Ned to pick up a child.

Meanwhile, it would be Howland to keep the child safe. And why in White Harbor, where he didn't have command, when he could have taken his ship to his own grounds, Greywater Castle, where he was ruling lord (or son of the ruling lord). Easier to keep Jon a secret that way.

Ned would have marched over the Kingsroad when going to war, wouldn't he? That includes crossing the Neck.

Though I've always wondered how Ned crossed the Twins? When Robb marches south, he makes it sound as if that really is the only way across. Lord Walder wasn't part of the fighting... how did Ned get south enough for Riverrun then?

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When was Aegon Targaryen born? Wiki says it was after Harrenhall:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest#Year_282_After_the_Conquest

Harrenhal's tourney took place in 281AC, Aegon's birth in 282AC.

It seems that Elia wasn't pregnant yet during Harrenhal, since

  1. She was allowed to travel, which she most likely wouldn't have been due to the fact she had already been on bedrest for 6 months after giving birth to Rhaenys, who was born the year before Harrenhal, making it quite recent that Elia had been on bedrest

Even if Elia would have been allowed to travel while being in early pregnancy stages, the fact that she was pregnant would only have added to the insult Rhaegar did her. Thus, had she truly been pregnant, it seems that would have been told while telling the Harrenhal story. Even if the people of Westeros only found out after tourney had actually taken place that Elia had been pregnant at the time. And we know Aegon wasn't conceived on the way to Harrenhal, during Harrenhal, or during the travel back to KL, for it is a known fact Rhaegar and Elia had been in KL when he was conceived.

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Then Ned would have lost thousands of his soldiers crossing the Neck. ;) ;)

I'm looking at this from this angle that as soon as Ned made his promise to Lyanna he decided that he would raise as his own son at Winterfell. So the wider realm knows Jon as his bastard the better.

So he went by the saying "Offense is the best defense". And sending Howland through White Harbour would dovetail nicely with his trip through White Harbour at the start of Rebellion. It will make Jon older than Robb by three months at most. Not impossible to prove.

And the Fisherman's Daughter rumor has to have some basic facts right. Just like Ned Dayne's story. Fisheran's daughter is more compatible with timeline than Ashara Dayne or Wyalla the wet nurse. Howland going through White Harbour & "accidently dropping the,name of Eddard Stark's bastard" would immediately get smallfolk talking about "Ned Stark's dishonour". KiIt would only help stregnthen Ned's "official story". And it also gives Howland ample time to deliever Jon and wet nurse (wyalla?) to Winterfell or wait at Moat Cailin for Ned as he returns North from King's landing.

Kingsroad passes from the fringe of Neck. Kingsroad acts as kind of border between High Road to bloody gate and Neck. Army doesnt have to "pass through the Neck" to get to Riverlands.

Robb had to cross the Twins becoz he had to devide his Army in two parts. One part Cavalry rode for Riverrun to break the siege there, another Infantry went to engage Tywim on Ruby Ford/Green Fork. Ned had no such prolem. He simply rode down Kingslanding, crossed the Green Fork and then steered his army towards Riverrun to link up with Hoster for their attack on Stony Sept.

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Then Ned would have lost thousands of his soldiers crossing the Neck. ;) ;)

I'm looking at this from this angle that as soon as Ned made his promise to Lyanna he decided that he would raise as his own son at Winterfell. So the wider realm knows Jon as his bastard the better.

So he went by the saying "Offense is the best defense". And sending Howland through White Harbour would dovetail nicely with his trip through White Harbour at the start of Rebellion. It will make Jon older than Robb by three months at most. Not impossible to prove.

And the Fisherman's Daughter rumor has to have some basic facts right. Just like Ned Dayne's story. Fisheran's daughter is more compatible with timeline than Ashara Dayne or Wyalla the wet nurse. Howland going through White Harbour & "accidently dropping the,name of Eddard Stark's bastard" would immediately get smallfolk talking about "Ned Stark's dishonour". KiIt would only help stregnthen Ned's "official story". And it also gives Howland ample time to deliever Jon and wet nurse (wyalla?) to Winterfell or wait at Moat Cailin for Ned as he returns North from King's landing.

Kingsroad passes from the fringe of Neck. Kingsroad acts as kind of border between High Road to bloody gate and Neck. Army doesnt have to "pass through the Neck" to get to Riverlands.

Robb had to cross the Twins becoz he had to devide his Army in two parts. One part Cavalry rode for Riverrun to break the siege there, another Infantry went to engage Tywim on Ruby Ford/Green Fork. Ned had no such prolem. He simply rode down Kingslanding, crossed the Green Fork and then steered his army towards Riverrun to link up with Hoster for their attack on Stony Sept.

But it isn't dishonour if Ned fathered a child before wedding Catelyn, and that is when he passed White Harbor, before marrying Catelyn.

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During Q&A last weekend, GRRM apparently said the relationship between Rhaegar and Elia was "complicated".

That could still mean anything, of course. Just thought I'd mention it.

Most likely they were ill suited for each other...JonCon said Elia wasn't good for Rhaegar, iirc.

Someone pointed out yesterday that Ned and Rhaegar would have gotten along; and Brandon with Robert...I don't think so; sullen + sullen makes for very sad times. Jon has Sam of course, and Sam is...perhaps a bit sullen, too...but Jon also has people like Dolorous Edd and Ygritte to cheer him up (+Arya).

Anyway...I imagine that sickly + sullen, made for very sad times too. Just imagine Elia bed ridden, in need of cheering up; and all Rhaegar comes up with his to sing her a sad song...that makes her cry? happy times, that.

My take on it is that they "respected" each other; but were both rather unhappy in their marriage. Elia, imo, would have needed a lot of attention, especially after Rhaenys's and Aegon’s birth and her being bedridden for such a long time... Rhaegar with his star gazing habits at Summerhall, a mad father and abused mother...with his own sad disposition; might not have found it in him to give her that.

It’s possible Viserys showed signs of madness already as well, no? That’s another worry added to the lot. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if the court in KL, disapproved of Elia; not only because of her being dornish, but because of her frail health too; and as a consequence, her frequent absence. This would also have strained their relationship a great deal, imo.

In any case..it's why I’d not exclude Elia being aware of Rhaegar’s intentions; and maybe even being relieved that he’d find himself someone else to make miserable; someone else to share his burdens with – because she had quite enough worries without adding his to the lot, too...

Also things to consider:

  • did Elia even want to be Queen? If no, a second wife, acting queen, is something she could have found solace in.
  • Was she happy staying at the capital, with Aerys? If no, a second wife, is good too...Elia could then leave the capital for Dragonstone, for ex. there'd have been no need for her to show her face at court.
  • Could she have acted as Queen, considering her health problems? And if no, might she not have found it a “good” solution for Rhaegar to have a second wife, one who could take on the responsibilities that were Elia’s, but that Elia couldn’t fulfill?
  • Could they even have sex after Aegon’s birth? What was the risk of her becoming pregnant again; and dying?
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Harrenhal's tourney took place in 281AC, Aegon's birth in 282AC.

It seems that Elia wasn't pregnant yet during Harrenhal, since

  1. She was allowed to travel, which she most likely wouldn't have been due to the fact she had already been on bedrest for 6 months after giving birth to Rhaenys, who was born the year before Harrenhal, making it quite recent that Elia had been on bedrest

Even if Elia would have been allowed to travel while being in early pregnancy stages, the fact that she was pregnant would only have added to the insult Rhaegar did her. Thus, had she truly been pregnant, it seems that would have been told while telling the Harrenhal story. Even if the people of Westeros only found out after tourney had actually taken place that Elia had been pregnant at the time. And we know Aegon wasn't conceived on the way to Harrenhal, during Harrenhal, or during the travel back to KL, for it is a known fact Rhaegar and Elia had been in KL when he was conceived.

Westerosis are not known for being good at math. iirc, Jaime told Sybell that Jeyne would have to wait a year at least before marrying, else people were like to think that any child of hers was fathered by Robb. If people were good at math, the stories about the fisher's girl would not hold up either, since Jon is meant to be younger than Robb. The same goes for the stories about Ashara Dayne and her having been dishonored at Harrenhal. I don't think many stopped to wonder about Elia's pregnancy. If she was in the early stages, she might not have known herself; and why should others do?

How do we know that Aegon was conceived in KL?

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During Q&A last weekend, GRRM apparently said the relationship between Rhaegar and Elia was "complicated".

That could still mean anything, of course. Just thought I'd mention it.

Interesting. It was a political marriage so yeah it could mean anything but most of the relationships/marriages in this series are political at first. And now I'm beginning to suspect that Elia played a role--however minor--in Rhaegar and Lyanna

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So many threads about this favourite and popular theory.


SOooooo here I go.


My general idea on this story:


The theory that the laughing tree knight(I dont really recall what he was called) is Lyana, stands for me.Many believe that it is not true because of her not having experience in combat there is no proof for that. She may have been trained just like Arya had an instructor.She may even have been doing it in secret.And I really really think that the R+L romance is the only romance you know both platonic and erotic and ideal we will ever see in this story(and we wont even see it because it has already happened so we will only assume it once proven-GRRM is not so famous for havng bittersweet stories for teenage girls).So that will be how they met.While Raegar was chasing the knight. And so begins a love story bla bla bla boring staff.


We all know that Robert Baratheon is a pig and we can assume that Lyana didnt love him back. It is nowhere mentioned.It was a one side thing only.


Many ask why doesnt Jon have purple eyes white hair. Maybe somene else has mentioned it but you know genetics are not always accurate? just like in our world 2 white parents can give birth to a black baby, and sometimes two brunetes have a blonde baby with blue eyes. And I think that the black hair most of the time are stronger than the white, lets take it scientificaly black hair comes from the amount of melanin( and many other factors which I wont count) so the less you have inherited the whiter / brighter your hair are.Basicaly just like Ned found out about Roberts bastards black hair wins over blonde in most of the cases.So if black is stronger than blonde then it must surely be stronger than white as well.Same thing works biologicaly on our eye colour.(High school biology).


I really cant think of any reasons why this theory is not true. the only ones would be other Jon theories being stronger like that his mom is Wylla.Which are not.


And for some reasons I really belive that GRRM will give this one satisfaction to the fans indeed but he will also give us a very chaotic ending as a punishment for pleasing us(I mean come on its known for his sadistics urges :P).I mean imagine Jon being truly R+L product and for example dying in the next chapter devoured by a dragon or ripped to pieces by Ghost or dying in the arms of his father( if the M=R theory is true) or that i dont know he becomes a white walker he is already a zombie and we learn who he really is after that.


Prepare yourselves for something terrible if this theory is real


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Many ask why doesnt Jon have purple eyes white hair. Maybe somene else has mentioned it but you know genetics are not always accurate? just like in our world 2 white parents can give birth to a black baby, and sometimes two brunetes have a blonde baby with blue eyes. And I think that the black hair most of the time are stronger than the white, lets take it scientificaly black hair comes from the amount of melanin( and many other factors which I wont count) so the less you have inherited the whiter / brighter your hair are.Basicaly just like Ned found out about Roberts bastards black hair wins over blonde in most of the cases.So if black is stronger than blonde then it must surely be stronger than white as well.Same thing works biologicaly on our eye colour.(High school biology).

We don't really know how Targ + Stark genes combine, do we? The Targs married their siblings or other Targs so they kept the same gene structure of purple eyes and silver hair. It may not be that his genes are accurate so much as Stark blood won out. He looks like Ayra, who looks like Lyanna (according to Ned).

Also, just from a logistic point of view, had GRRM made Jon silver haired and purple eyed, then you loose the whole mystery in an instant.

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We don't really know how Targ + Stark genes combine, do we? The Targs married their siblings or other Targs so they kept the same gene structure of purple eyes and silver hair. It may not be that his genes are accurate so much as Stark blood won out. He looks like Ayra, who looks like Lyanna (according to Ned).

Also, just from a logistic point of view, had GRRM made Jon silver haired and purple eyed, then you loose the whole mystery in an instant.

i cannot disagree completely but there are many reasons to believe that basic Westeros science/ biology works just like in our world.

You know the reason why I basicaly ended up thinking like that was

1 Correct me I may be wrong but I think that some Targaryen+Martell kids had dorne features and not Targaryen

2 The Robert bastards and the Jofrey Myrcella Tommen who are all blonde

3 Jon looks like Arya

I know it is pointless. But I had to get it off my system and say this idea

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snip

A platonic romance? seems an oxymoron... a bromance, then. ;)

Aegon had silver hair, btw. Tyene Sand has blond hair -- the Martell genes do not always trump fair hair... there might be recessive blond/silver genes in their blood too....and the same could be true for other families in westeros; as in real world. In asoiaf, only the Baratheon genes seem to trump all; even the usually recessive blue eyes.

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