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R+L=J v.83


Angalin

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i cannot disagree completely but there are many reasons to believe that basic Westeros science/ biology works just like in our world.

You know the reason why I basicaly ended up thinking like that was

1 Correct me I may be wrong but I think that some Targaryen+Martell kids had dorne features and not Targaryen

2 The Robert bastards and the Jofrey Myrcella Tommen who are all blonde

3 Jon looks like Arya

I know it is pointless. But I had to get it off my system and say this idea

Oh I'm sure it works just like our world; Jon could have come out looking like any number of combos if genetics works the way it does in our world.

1) Pure Targ : silver hair and purple eyes, taking after his father Rhaegar, which would indicate that purple eyes and silver hair is dominant and black hair and dark eyes are recessive

2) Pure northern: dark hair and dark eyes, taking after his sister Lyanna, which would indicate that dark hair and northern eyes are dominatn and Targ features are recessvie

3) Purple eyes and dark hair: pruple eyes are dominant over northern colored eyes and dark hair is dominant over silver

4) Dark eyes and silver hair: again, dominant and recessive

5) Red hair and green eyes: somewhere along the line, someone passed along these genes and they combined in Jon to produce this combo.

Look at how Rhaego would have turned out if he had lived

A tall lord with copper-skin and silver-gold hair beneath a banner of a fiery stallion

It depends on the whole genetic history of the two parents and what they "offer" when combined.

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  • Was she happy staying at the capital, with Aerys? If no, a second wife, is good too...Elia could then leave the capital for Dragonstone, for ex. there'd have been no need for her to show her face at court.

There might be a hint about this in that Mellario has left Doran to stay with family in Norvos. Having produced an heir, Elia might have been able to go to Dorne to stay with family.

Also, early in AGoT, Ned suggests that Catelyn goes to the Vale to visit Lysa, and to bring the children, to "fill the halls with laughter" or somesuch.

Any other examples of wives going away to stay with family?

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I'm going to speak broadly here. This pertains largely to R+L=J, but could also fit other theories, like the valonqar.

I think people obsess too much over the "who" in these sorts of things. "Who is Jon's mother? Who is the valonqar?" When the answers to those questions are hinted at in the books (e.g. it's hinted that Lyanna is Jon's mother and Rhaegar is his father and that Jaime is the valonqar), people create their own backlash to it. "If I was able to figure it out, it must be a false lead! He must be having us on! It can't be that easy!"

I think that at least a few of these mysteries, especially those two, aren't really predicated on the "who," so much as the "why" and the "how." In R+L=J's terms, the great mystery at this point isn't who his parents are (I think we who believe R+L=J can all say that all of the pieces are there for those paying attention and willing to examine them), but it's why they got together, how it happened and what effect it will have on the story. Likewise, if Jaime (or whoever) ends up being the valonqar, the operative conclusion isn't simply the "who" of it, but how it came to pass and why.

In other words, rejecting R+L=J out of a belief that it settles the "who" too easily is probably missing the point of what GRRM is going for. He's not actually hiding anything or using trickery with these clues; we're meant to solve the mystery. It's all the other components that comprise the "real" enigma.

Well put. It is not the who, but the why.

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Thus, I see only these solutions:

1) Rhaegar planned it all on his own, showed up after a year apart, and persuaded her to come along.

2) He really did take her against her will.

3) others like Rickard himself, were involved.

How about this for another? Rhaegar, a year after Harrenhal, was journeying with his bodyguards and happens to meet up with Lyanna. On the spur of the moment Lyanna convinces Rhaegar to protect her from the betrothal to Robert, and later they decide that they were meant for each other. The events at Harrenhal served only to introduce them, give them the small bit of familiarity to build on.

There are many more options than you or I have offered, I am just offering my best guess and saying so. ;)

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There might be a hint about this in that Mellario has left Doran to stay with family in Norvos. Having produced an heir, Elia might have been able to go to Dorne to stay with family.

Also, early in AGoT, Ned suggests that Catelyn goes to the Vale to visit Lysa, and to bring the children, to "fill the halls with laughter" or somesuch.

Any other examples of wives going away to stay with family?

Not quite...but we also have two almost examples of wives being set aside, or "freed" from their vows.

1) Renly; and his suggesting Cersei be swapped for Margaery;

2) Naerys Targaryen, who wanted to join the faith after her son was born.

These, and the Doran/Mellario ex; and indeed Ned's suggestion to Cat....indicates imo, that two reasonable adults, both unhappy in their marriage could find a solution that would suit all parties involved. And that these solutions can range from living on two separate continents but remain married; to undo marriage vows completely (if both consent).... Targaryens have the advantage of polygamy, making it even easier.

Actually, we have Asha as well; and her husband! but, her case is rather...different.

More seriously though.... Did Selyse live in KL while Stannis was at court? Living apart seems to be...acceptable, at least. Ned did not take Cat with him; only the girls... Returning to Dorne would seem a reasonable desire for Elia to have; especially considering her health -- and the viper pit KL is. I don't see her abandoning her children though, so...that's why I suggested Dragonstone; because Aegon could probably have been raised there without anyone objecting to it.

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Thats Mtn Lion's personal theory and I disagree with it. Several timings are unclear, but there is simply too much back and forth travel across the length of the continent for his theory to fit. Its is much more likely, IMO that the betrothal was announced in Winterfell before the Stark kids went south for Harrenhal and Lyanna stayed south afterward. Mtn Lion IIRC from our discussions bases much on the birth year of Mya Stone and the Harrenhal tourney date, but IIRC when we hashed it out it comes down to something like a 2-3 month window of her birthday works works fro annoucement before the tourney and a 9-10 month window of her brithday works aonly after the tourney. As best we can tell. He goes by the odds on that, I go by the other factors like travel options and Lyanna's tomboyism and lack of feminine role models at Winterfell..

Well, let's look closely, then. Ned (and Robert) went directly from the Eyrie to Harrenhal. Lyanna and benjen were at Harrenhal, too. Robert is observed drinking, but doing nothing with Lyanna. It seems all too obvious that there is no betrothal at this point. It is possible that Robert is interested, but Rickard will need to agree. Ned and Lyanna are in Winterfell when Lyanna opposes a possible betrothal to Robert. It seems fair that Ned would present Robert's offer of betrothal to Rickard, and Lyanna wanted him not to. The wording I used was presented, which is not a formal announcement, which we know from GRRM was after the winter following the false spring. After the winter Brandon's betrothal was formally announced and Petyr challenged immediately. Brandon comes from Winterfell to answer the challenge. Petyr is wounded so severely that he cannot be moved for a fortnight. Brandon leaves after the duel, promising Catelyn to return from his errand shortly for the wedding. Petyr leaves before Brandon is on his way back and gets "word" that has him ride for King's Landing. (Lyanna's name is never mentioned again until after the war.)

I do not know where the SSM is that mentions the formal announcement of Brandon and Catelyn's betrothal "after the winter". It does confirm my belief that all of the Starks wintered at Winterfell after the tourney. Insisting that Lyanna would be schooled at Harrenhal instead of any place else is kind of like wishing for something that would make something else more convenient (God's Eye).

What I expect happened is that Lyanna was enroute to Riverrun for Brandon's wedding and encountered Rhaegar on the way, before she met up with Brandon. Brandon searched for her, but had to return for his wedding because of time. It does not put the God's Eye out of reach, it just is not as convenient. Another possibility would be that Lyanna was enroute to Storm's End and met up with Rhaegar in King's Landing, who accompanied her for part of her journey, and more.

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You are forgetting when Rhaegar rejected Cersei. Cersei was rejected in favor of Elia, thus before Rhaegar married E

The real reasons of the rejection aren't clear. Rhaegar was 17 then, he could have insisted his father on looking a bride with dragon blood ("but daaad... the prophecy!"), and Tywin used that to be cruel to Tywin, or, he said no on his own because he really felt what he said. Both are likely possible.

But Tywin still had hopes to marry her to someone, even Viserys. Pycelle was always a Lannister man, he was in KL for both of Elia's births. He could have been there to inform Tywin that she was sick and unable to bear more children, information that Tywin could have use on his favour.

Or.... he could have said that to Rhaegar and it was a lie.

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The real reasons of the rejection aren't clear. Rhaegar was 17 then, he could have insisted his father on looking a bride with dragon blood ("but daaad... the prophecy!"), and Tywin used that to be cruel to Tywin, or, he said no on his own because he really felt what he said. Both are likely possible.

But Tywin still had hopes to marry her to someone, even Viserys. Pycelle was always a Lannister man, he was in KL for both of Elia's births. He could have been there to inform Tywin that she was sick and unable to bear more children, information that Tywin could have use on his favour.

Or.... he could have said that to Rhaegar and it was a lie.

The point here is that Cersei was rejected early on, and Elia was taken instead. Kevan is lamenting the fact that Cersei was rejected and Elia failed to produce more heirs than she did because of her health. It is possible that he is speculating about why Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together, but I am fairly certain that Rhaegar would reject Cersei again if offered after Elia's second child. ;)

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The real reasons of the rejection aren't clear. Rhaegar was 17 then, he could have insisted his father on looking a bride with dragon blood ("but daaad... the prophecy!"), and Tywin used that to be cruel to Tywin, or, he said no on his own because he really felt what he said. Both are likely possible.

But Tywin still had hopes to marry her to someone, even Viserys. Pycelle was always a Lannister man, he was in KL for both of Elia's births. He could have been there to inform Tywin that she was sick and unable to bear more children, information that Tywin could have use on his favour.

Or.... he could have said that to Rhaegar and it was a lie.

My understanding is that Aerys is the one that rejected Cersei and it doesn't appear that Rhaegar was consulted on the matter at all. If I am missing something please let me know.

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I do not know where the SSM is that mentions the formal announcement of Brandon and Catelyn's betrothal "after the winter". It does confirm my belief that all of the Starks wintered at Winterfell after the tourney. Insisting that Lyanna would be schooled at Harrenhal instead of any place else is kind of like wishing for something that would make something else more convenient (God's Eye).

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1292/

[Note: Proofread for clarity. This is in response to a question regarding whether Brandon's duel with Littlefinger was before or after Harrenhal.]

And when I asked him your question, Ran, about Brandon, he said he couldn't be 100% sure without checking his notes but he thought it was after Harrenhal.

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My understanding is that Aerys is the one that rejected Cersei and it doesn't appear that Rhaegar was consulted on the matter at all. If I am missing something please let me know.

That was my understanding as well. Aerys could have decided all on his own to reject the offer, if only to spite Tywin ....but imo, there was more behind it; and Aerys was convinced by someone else to reject Cersei; or was manipulated into thinking it was a good idea. Varys comes to mind; though I’m not certain when he came to KL – it was before the tourney certainly.

No matter what else he is, Tywin was a capable man, and served well as Hand to the King. Alienating him if one sought to undermine the stability of the realm, or Targaryen rule; seems a rather logical step to take.

Cersei was born in 266; and she was 10 when Tywin made his offer. So, that was around 276; and about two years before the death of Seffon Baratheon; who was to find a wife for Rhaegar in Essos....In any case, I don't believe Elia was Rhaegar's choice, so why should he have been consulted for Cersei?

...I’d say R+E married...shortly after Steffon’s death.... would their wedding not have been a huge event with many lords and ladies in attendance? And Robert, among these?...How come we never heard of it?

........

Ser Leftwich,

you wondered about Aerys’s relationship to Robert...might Steffon’s death not have strained it? Might Robert have chosen not to attend Rhaegar’s wedding to Elia; if he blamed Aerys (and by extension Rhaegar) for Steffon’s and Cassana’s death?

It is strange that we hear Stannis reminisce about his parents, but not a peep from Robert, no? And...why does Robert stay in the Vale, after his parent’s death? he becomes Lord of Storm’s End in title then; and he’s no younger than Robb, when Robb accepts the responsibility of King....

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Ser Leftwich,

you wondered about Aerys’s relationship to Robert...might Steffon’s death not have strained it? Might Robert have chosen not to attend Rhaegar’s wedding to Elia; if he blamed Aerys (and by extension Rhaegar) for Steffon’s and Cassana’s death?

It is strange that we hear Stannis reminisce about his parents, but not a peep from Robert, no? And...why does Robert stay in the Vale, after his parent’s death? he becomes Lord of Storm’s End in title then; and he’s no younger than Robb, when Robb accepts the responsibility of King....

I have considered most of those, but there is absolutely nothing in the books on the topic. :frown5:

If Robert had returned to the Vale after his parents' deaths and before the Rhaegar/Elia wedding, I would guess that Jon Arryn would have convinced/told him he had to attend.

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I have considered most of those, but there is absolutely nothing in the books on the topic. :frown5:

If Robert had returned to the Vale after his parents' deaths and before the Rhaegar/Elia wedding, I would guess that Jon Arryn would have convinced/told him he had to attend.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2000/03/

How did Ned manage to become such a paragon Northener and a close friend of Lyanna's if he spent his time in the Vale from age 8 to 18? Or did he return home at some point(when?) and was just visiting Jon Arryn prior to and after the tourney at Harrenhal?

He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.

...So Robert divided his time between Storm's End, the Vale, and tourneys. Might be something happened at the marriage...we know what sort of fool Robert made of himself during Stannis's wedding. :)

I'm thinking Mya Stone was conceived close to the time Robert received news of his parent's death...that would be in the Vale....so sometime in 279, Robert was in the vale. That’s not very helpful.

(Ned, moved around too. He was not "exiled" from Winterfell. He could have brought the offer of betrothal in Robert's name, at any time before the tourney as he visited his father. The conversation with Lyanna can also have happened before the tourney, imo. Do we even know that Ned came to Harrenhal from the Vale? and not from Winterfell with his siblings?)

"I was his lord...My right, to make his match" says Lord Hoster about Brynden. Does it mean that the lord can force anyone under his rule to marry whomever he wishes? Can the people in question legally break the commitments made for them by the lord (i.e. promises, betrothals) and what penalty can the lord visit on them for this? What if they just refuse to exchange the marriage vows, etc?

They can indeed refuse to take the vows, as the Blackfish did, but there are often severe consequences to this. The lord is certainly expected to arrange the matches for his own children and unmarried younger siblings. He does not necessarily arrange marriages for his vassal lords or household knights... but they would be wise to consult with him and respect his feelings. It would not be prudent for a vassal to marry one of his liege lord's enemies, for instance.

As you suggested in your other thread, I think there's a real possibility that Aerys should have been consulted for any match of Roberts; due to blood ties. Also, Hippocras, has mentioned often in the southron ambitions, how the pregnant woman in Bran's vision, the one praying for a "son to avenge her," might have much to do with Rickard's "ambitions." The woman, according to the citadel and the order of sequences (after the one showing Lyanna and Benjen) should be Rickard's generation, or the generation before that.

(I think it's to do with the twice mentioned Flint grandmother = Willam and Rodrick's generation; doesn't that fit with Egg's visit to Winterfell? Brandon's birth is placed at 261; with an average of 20 years; we have Rickard born around 241; Edwyle around 221; and Willam 201. Egg's birth is placed at +/- 199)

...Maekar reigned from 221 - 233...might something of importance have happened between Starks and Targaryens during that time? something that would have strained relationships; and made Aerys wary of Starks?

EDIT: cleared it up, somewhat... hopefully ;)

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http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1292/

[Note: Proofread for clarity. This is in response to a question regarding whether Brandon's duel with Littlefinger was before or after Harrenhal.]

And when I asked him your question, Ran, about Brandon, he said he couldn't be 100% sure without checking his notes but he thought it was after Harrenhal.

Thanks for looking, but that is definitely not the one that came to mind. I believe that the one that I am thinking of relates to Littlefinger's contribution to the rebellion. GRRM says something about the duel taking place right after winter and that Littlefinger was in no condition to contribute. The winter part was the clue I keyed in on, but we know that the duel is a "short time" before Brandon rides for King's Landing, definitely not before Harrenhal. :P

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...Maekar reigned from 221 - 233...might something of importance have happened between Starks and Targaryens during that time? something that would have strained relationships; and made Aerys wary of Starks?

I have read some of those, but I sense that taking evenly spaced intervals between visions is not going to work. The last two visions appear to be way back in time, separated by much more than the first two are separated by.

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I have read some of those, but I sense that taking evenly spaced intervals between visions is not going to work. The last two visions appear to be way back in time, separated by much more than the first two are separated by.

That's possible yes....in any case, the Flint grandmother is mentioned once by Bran, once by Jon. Egg's story is being fleshed out; coming closer and closer to present time, even Rodrick Stark has been mentioned by Tyrion iirc. I don't think this is all a hazard, that Rodrick and Egg seems to be the same generation. All somewhat converges back to Aegon V...well, Maester Aemon and Brynden Rivers sort of do. ;)

EDIT: but it doesn't necessarily have to do with RR, admittedly. Only universe building, linking the stories together....

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Oh I'm sure it works just like our world; Jon could have come out looking like any number of combos if genetics works the way it does in our world.

1) Pure Targ : silver hair and purple eyes, taking after his father Rhaegar, which would indicate that purple eyes and silver hair is dominant and black hair and dark eyes are recessive

2) Pure northern: dark hair and dark eyes, taking after his sister Lyanna, which would indicate that dark hair and northern eyes are dominatn and Targ features are recessvie

3) Purple eyes and dark hair: pruple eyes are dominant over northern colored eyes and dark hair is dominant over silver

4) Dark eyes and silver hair: again, dominant and recessive

5) Red hair and green eyes: somewhere along the line, someone passed along these genes and they combined in Jon to produce this combo.

Look at how Rhaego would have turned out if he had lived

It depends on the whole genetic history of the two parents and what they "offer" when combined.

I think that you are over-analyzing this. basically, Jon's looks shouldn't be taken as some logically and genetically reasonable looks. It is basically a literary ploy. Just like I say in all those threads "what if Jon looked Valyrian?", the point is that he was never meant to look that way. His Stark look is deliberate literary ploy made by Martin and Jon could have never looked any other way than the way he looks. It was a deliberate move, to get us in different direction from all those silver-haired Targaryens. Jon's looks has the value in not just R+L=J, but also the chagrin Catelyn felt for him, the closeness to Arya etc. This is one of those issues that shouldn't be observed scientifically, but rather through the glasses of narrative tool.

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