R+L=J v.83

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Which is why I'm starting to think that she encouraged him to be with Lyanna.

I think there's a fine line between Elia being a scorned wife and Elia being a full enabler. The former, I'd argue, isn't really supported in the text (no one mentions Elia as being jealous or holding a grudge against her husband; people may think this way on her behalf, but we don't see evidence of it from her herself). The latter perhaps too easily absolves Rhaegar of what he did and some might argue, not unfairly, diminishes the consequences and gravity of what Rhaegar did. I think the truth is probably somewhere in between: Elia may have known what was going on and may have resolved herself to it and understood it, but I stop short at seeing her as a willing and eager participant. On the other hand, Elia having some agency in the whole thing elevates her above being what, at face value, she appears to be, namely a victim whose entire life and death were ultimately in the hands of other people: her mother, Aerys, Rhaegar, Tywin, Gregor, etc.

I think there's a lot left to be said about that triangle. I look forward to learning about it. I find Elia very fascinating and I would love to find out that she was much savvier and more in control of what happened than what appears to be the case. We're told that she was a fundamentally good person and very clever. I hope it's the case that she and Rhaegar had a legitimately affectionate relationship.

[Fire Eater]

Going back to the Rhaegar-Elia-Lyanna triangle, it reminds me a lot of the Aegon-Rhaenys-Visenya triangle. Where Aegon married Visenya for duty (and presumably it was the same for her; we never hear or read about her being jealous of her sister) and took the extra wife, Rhaenys, "out of desire." Sounds quite a bit like Rhaegar's situation, doesn't it? It also hints that Rhaegar and Elia probably got along well in a friendly/platonic, but not romantic, way.

And there's the obvious, "Yes, Virginia, it was polygamy" implication.

Rhaenys was Aegon's younger, second wife who died in Dorne while Lyanna was Rhaegar's younger, second wife who died in Dorne. It was Rhaenys's line that sat the IT, and Lyanna's line will sit the IT.

[BearQueen87]

I think there's a fine line between Elia being a scorned wife and Elia being a full enabler. The former, I'd argue, isn't really supported in the text (no one mentions Elia as being jealous or holding a grudge against her husband; people may think this way on her behalf, but we don't see evidence of it from her herself). The latter perhaps too easily absolves Rhaegar of what he did and some might argue, not unfairly, diminishes the consequences and gravity of what Rhaegar did. I think the truth is probably somewhere in between: Elia may have known what was going on and may have resolved herself to it and understood it, but I stop short at seeing her as a willing and eager participant. On the other hand, Elia having some agency in the whole thing elevates her above being what, at face value, she appears to be, namely a victim whose entire life and death were ultimately in the hands of other people: her mother, Aerys, Rhaegar, Tywin, Gregor, etc.

I think there's a lot left to be said about that triangle. I look forward to learning about it. I find Elia very fascinating and I would love to find out that she was much savvier and more in control of what happened than what appears to be the case. We're told that she was a fundamentally good person and very clever. I hope it's the case that she and Rhaegar had a legitimately affectionate relationship.

Agreed with the bolded part. She's the one in this triangle that I feel the most for. Either Rhaegar was a kidnapper or Lyanna was dishonorable to her father (an issue for the world of Westeros) or they "were in love" and I'm not sure how much that absolves them, honestly. But Elia... :( to meet such a brutal end if she either encouraged or agreed to Rhaegar's plans and beliefs.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think there's a lot left to be said about that triangle. I look forward to learning about it. I find Elia very fascinating and I would love to find out that she was much savvier and more in control of what happened than what appears to be the case. We're told that she was a fundamentally good person and very clever. I hope it's the case that she and Rhaegar had a legitimately affectionate relationship.

New poster here (this is my second after the intro). Just finished the books recently. It was the introduction of the Martells on the show that got me interested enough to read the books. I started leaning toward R+L=J by the end of the first book, which my reader friends confirmed. Flew through the rest of the series and have also read TPatQ.

Anyway, Elia fascinates me, as does Dorne, House Martell, and their relationship to the rest of the Kingdoms. I agree with the above post. Sorry, I can't see Elia, a princess of Dorne in her own right, allowing a prince from a diminished House Targaryen to take her agency in any way. One of my main complaints about the series before delving into the books was the apparent role of women in Westeros, which seems even more restricted than in our actual Middle Ages. (Yes, I have read the threads about gender in the series, and have since revised my opinion somewhat.) If something had happened to her older brother before he had children, Elia could have been a reigning monarch in her own right. I just can't see her allowing Rhaegar to shame her without her consent. The Dornish just don't seem to be a culture who is into suffering in mute silence.

I wonder if some readers equate her frail physical health with passivity or weakness? I'm not sure Martin's given us enough clues to know for sure. As a new reader, I get why Elia and her children with Rhaegar had to remain in Kings Landing for the purpose of the plot, but as a fan of that House and Kingdom, it's too bad they couldn't have survived the Sack. Rhaegar is fortunate to have had her, because I am certain a Princess Cersei would have caused RR to unfold VERY differently. I hope we learn more about her in the last two books or in any short stories from this universe.

I also like the idea that if Rhaegar married Lyanna, his consorts would have respectively been from lands of ice and fire... once again, the dominant theme of the series.

[Alia of the knife]

Rhaenys was also quite the flirt, and rumored to surround herself with "comely men" and other bed mates.

Could it be if they all survived the rebellion, Lyanna would have broken Rhaegars heart for all his troubles?

[BearQueen87]

Rhaenys was also quite the flirt, and rumored to surround herself with "comely men" and other bed mates.

Could it be if they all survived the rebellion, Lyanna would have broken Rhaegars heart for all his troubles?

That's a very interesting thought. Lyanna was young and enamored of a sweet prince who played the harp well. Lyanna is that mix of Sansa and Ayra. She's a bit wild and forward thinking but she's got that romantic in her. Lyanna knows that Robert wouldn't keep to one bed but would she? Not saying that she would take many many many lovers, but over time, if the prophecy became more important to Rhaegar, if he began to feel guilty over Elia and their children, if Aerys wasn't killed and continued his mad reign, if arguments broke over do Aegon and Rhayens and Jon all rule together (because how would the Martell's feel about that) and do Aegon and Rhaenys marry..but then what about Jon? If Lyanna never had another child what happens to Jon and his future? If these types of conversations begin to happen as time moves forward, would Lyanna have broken Rhaegar's heart, or indeed would war have happened anyway.

picture it: Lyanna wants Jon to rule alongside Aegon and Rhaenys. But Elia objects and Rhaegar is torn on the matter since that would be 2 kings and one queen (how would rule follow after that?)...the Martell's follow Elia; the Stark's follow Lyanna. The bannermen are called, sides are taken.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So, Lyanna kidnapped Rhaegar and then broke his heart?

Sounds like the version Connington has told Aegon. And I kinda like it.

[Ygrain]

Rhaenys was Aegon's younger, second wife who died in Dorne while Lyanna was Rhaegar's younger, second wife who died in Dorne. It was Rhaenys's line that sat the IT, and Lyanna's line will sit the IT.

Nice!

I wonder... do we know how Visenya felt about sharing her husband?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Nice!

I wonder... do we know how Visenya felt about sharing her husband?

If they went all together, I don't think she cared that much.

[Jane Blackdread]

If not romantic then what, I wonder? Because I don't think Lyanna was stolen in the night by Rhaegar. He's not actually Paris to her Helen, a man who kidnaps someone from her proper leige lord (in our case, Lyanna's father since she was unwed). Lyanna may have been a bit wild but I find it hard to beleive that she could convince the crown prince to just take her away, espeically after the tourrney and the roses. And I know this not 100% for sure (I think) but Rhaegar does die speaking the name of the woman he loved and I don't think it's Elia. I think you're right that romance is a gloss over a harsh truth, but isnt' that totally what Lyanna and Rhaegar ARE? The true romance in the series that turns a kingdom on its head, starts a war, overthrows a 300yr old dynasty and results in the death of both parties (and many more besides?). The harsh truth is that romance and love exist, like in the songs, but it seldom turns out well.

I kind of agree with the fact that there was something more than a romantic issue on the Rhaegar and Lyanna behaviour... may be a Greater Good... We know Rhaegar in his earlier years believed he was The Prince that was promised or Azor Ahai but then he realized he wasn´t the subject but maybe one of his children...

We also know Aerys was a fervent book reader... it has been told he prefered to be with a book than his wife... maybe he found something in his books... maybe he dreamt something important.

We all know that Tywin Lannister was planning to marry his daughter to prince Rhaegar (and Jaime to Lysa Tully) and we know how beautiful Cersei Lannister was. But Aerys decided to marry his son and heir to Elia Martell maybe tu fulfill some prophecy.

We know the Conquerors on their dragons were three Targaryens siblings and partners... Rhaenys was the oldest of the three followed by Aegon and later Visenya.

If Rhaegar an Aerys believed something important was about to begin... after seeing his first child was a girl and the second child a boy obviously he would believed the dragons were about to return. He only needed the third child: Visenya.

But Elia Martel was not on the health to produce another child... He had to found another woman and Cersei Lannister was not that woman.

I am a little bit confused because of the timing but it is probably that when the tournament in the false spring began maybe Elia Martell had birthed Aegon and she was weak. And Rhaegar met Lyanna Stark, a free spirited girl, a she-wolf and probably the "mysterious knight of the laughing tree".

We have not much information on what happened since the tournament ended and the time Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped Lyanna Stark (around one year) We don´t know if Rhaegar and Elia tried to conceive "Visenya" but failed. We don´t know if Rhaegar made some new foundings on the prophecy of AA. They had the dragon stones, the eggs of the dragons that should've been awaken once the dragon riders were complete (Rhaegar's children).

From here I found two alternatives for the Rhaegar and Lyanna's situation:

1) Rhaegar had to travel to some far strange place to look for something (or someone) and he went to wherever Lyanna was at that moment (Winterfell?, the Vale?) and invited her to this quest. She accepted... In the process they fall in love and get married and get pregnant.

2) Rhaegar realized that he had to take another wife in order to fulfill the prophecy and not any woman but this special woman. It is obvious that as a Prince he had the knowledge of the upcoming wedding of Robert Baratheon with Lyanna Stark. He reacted and kidnapped Lyanna (Arthur Dayne helped him) and run away. Maybe Lyanna fought but a fight she wouldn't win. This situation put in a bad predicament the reputation of Rhaegar. I see Rhaegar trying to convince Lyanna to love him... in the end she loves him and accepts to be his wife. His music softens her.

I don´t know what to think about Rhaegar but a rapist I don't think he is. Maybe he kidnapped Lyanna but after that he tried to win her heart. For Lyanna, if Arya Stark looks like her not only in the physical but spirit I don´t see Arya running away with a married man and putting her family in a bad predicament ignoring all the consequences of her acts. If she was kidnapped and she was not interested in Prince Rhaegar she would have found a way to scape.

But she loved him and stayed. He loved her and did anything to protect her.

If the dissapearance of these two lasted one year at least it is probably the intercourse began months later... it was at the end of the war of the rebels that lasted one year at least that Eddard Stark run to take his sister back... Rhaegar was defeated... Aerys was killed... Rhaenys and Aegon were murdered... Rhaella fleed with Viserys and unborned Daenerys... Robert was the king... And Ned found his sister dying in a bed full of blood (and winter flowers) and in fevers and in fears... She just had gave birth future Jon Snow. She knew all the things that had happened. Arthur Dayne and the others King's Guard knew the facts... they told Lyanna... they stayed with her because she was having the future king or queen... She clarified Ned her feelings for Rhaegar. She made her brother to promise her not to tell anyone that baby is Rhaegar's... to promise he will protect her son, he would raise him as his own and guard him from Robert's anger.

That's what haunted Ned the rest of his life... to keep such a heavy secret. Ned had to hide a righful heir to the Iron Throne by putting him a cape of bastard. Not only lie to his wife, his own children about the nature of Jon but hide Jon his own nature and hide Westeros the possibility of having a good king.

So, before I think in the mere romanticism tale of Rhaegar and Lyanna I believe there were more heavy stuff hidden in their actions.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

1) Rhaegar had to travel to some far strange place to look for something (or someone) and he went to wherever Lyanna was at that moment (Winterfell?, the Vale?) and invited her to this quest. She accepted... In the process they fall in love and get married and get pregnant.

This is what I think it happened.

Rhaegar was sure he would be the "prince" until Elia was pregnant a second time. He probably though he would sire the Prince and the three heads of the Dragon. But when he's told Elia couldn't have more children he had, again, doubts. So, he heads North to talk with the only sane Targaryen he could have talked back then: Aemon, who we know exchanged letters about the prophecy with. On his way, he finds Lyanna and whatever happened there, he didn't get to the Wall and he returned South with her to Dorne. (I'm guessing he never got there. Otherwise, people would remember)

Here is where I think there is a (kinda) parallel to Jon. Jon was told by Qhorin that he needed to do ANYTHING the wildings asked them in order to get closer to them and learn about them, and Jon realises that even included sleep with Ygritte, who he eventually got to love although was never his intention. In the same way, he regrets often to break his vows and wonders if his father felt the same. He could have been right about the wrong father. If in a way, Whent and Arthur were conspirators to take down Aerys and crown Rhaegar, maybe they set up to keep him in the Tower of Joy, away from Varys and his little birds, playing the role of "Qhorin" here, but with a different mission. I honestly doubt they simply found an empty tower and crashed there: that place was probably being prepared months before so they could live there for a while. And while Lyanna could have gone willingly with them or they were simply escorting her south, her absence could have been a good alibi to explain Rhaegar's: "Rhaegar? Where is he? Ah, he's with another woman". Anything to keep people shut about Rhaegar's real intentions. Maybe Lyanna was playing along if that would free her from Robert. But like Jon, his plans leaded to real love. Jon broke his vows as a men of the NW while Rhaegar broke his vows as a married man with Lyanna.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Nice!

I wonder... do we know how Visenya felt about sharing her husband?

The fact that Visenya seems to have supported Maegor and his usurping, and the fact that Visenya's kid and Rhaenys' kids did not get along at all (said by GRRM or Ran, IIRC), I doubt Visenya was fully behind it..

[Ghost's Shadow]

*can't believe the fanfiction about Lyanna cheating on Rhaegar when she explicitly didn't want to marry Robert because he would never keep to one bed*

[MtnLion]

I beleive Jamie was 15 when he got the white cloak, and 17 when he killed Aerys. If Rhaenys_Targaryen is correct then Rhaenys is 3 and Aegon is...1+?

Yes, GRRM has said that Aegon was one year old give or take a month or two. I tend to think he was thirteen to fourteen months old, when I lay out the timeline. Between Harrenhal Tourney and Brandon riding for King's Landing is about a year, though nine months of winter following the Tourney will do.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

*can't believe the fanfiction about Lyanna cheating on Rhaegar when she explicitly didn't want to marry Robert because he would never keep to one bed*

She's also a Stark, and it's extremely un-Stark-like thing to do. So is throwing caution to the wind and running off with the man you love (?), but as much as Lyanna's like Arya, I can't help but think that she may have had a AGoT Sansa-like appreciation of a good fairy tale. Especially if she really was (or had something to do with) the whole KotLT business.

I still want to know more about Elia's role in this. Somehow I can't see her as the Visenya to Aegon I's Rhaenys.

The fact that Visenya seems to have supported Maegor and his usurping, and the fact that Visenya's kid and Rhaenys' kids did not get along at all (said by GRRM or Ran, IIRC), I doubt Visenya was fully behind it..

With Visenya being the elder sister, and spending only 1/10th of her nights with Aegon I, who knows? She could have had another lover. She's the blood of the dragon. I'm sure the legends will never tell. But if GRRM is subverting traditional fantasy tropes, it'd be hilarious if she slept with, say, her half-brother Orys, and somehow was a founder of the Baratheon line.

One of the things that's interesting is that Martell and Targaryen mating practices are outliers for Westeros because of their Essosi origins (Rhoynar and Valyrian). And that's putting it mildly. Rhaegar and Elia were part of those cultures and expectations. The real factor in this -- and who we need to know more about -- is Lyanna Stark. She's the one breaking with custom after hearing all her life that "Winter is coming." Why did she either go willingly, or if unwilling, why did she not pull an Arya and slip out of his grasp? I do like R+L=J and believe she loved him because that's where the clues seem to be leaning. But it's such a strange thing for a lady of the North to do.

[BearQueen87]

She's also a Stark, and it's extremely un-Stark-like thing to do. So is throwing caution to the wind and running off with the man you love (?), but as much as Lyanna's like Arya, I can't help but think that she may have had a AGoT Sansa-like appreciation of a good fairy tale. Especially if she really was (or had something to do with) the whole KotLT business.

I still want to know more about Elia's role in this. Somehow I can't see her as the Visenya to Aegon I's Rhaenys.

With Visenya being the elder sister, and spending only 1/10th of her nights with Aegon I, who knows? She could have had another lover. She's the blood of the dragon. I'm sure the legends will never tell. But if GRRM is subverting traditional fantasy tropes, it'd be hilarious if she slept with, say, her half-brother Orys, and somehow was a founder of the Baratheon line.

One of the things that's interesting is that Martell and Targaryen mating practices are outliers for Westeros because of their Essosi origins (Rhoynar and Valyrian). And that's putting it mildly. Rhaegar and Elia were part of those cultures and expectations. The real factor in this -- and who we need to know more about -- is Lyanna Stark. She's the one breaking with custom after hearing all her life that "Winter is coming." Why did she either go willingly, or if unwilling, why did she not pull an Arya and slip out of his grasp? I do like R+L=J and believe she loved him because that's where the clues seem to be leaning. But it's such a strange thing for a lady of the North to do.

It is, even taking into account how much like Arya Lyanna is. But Rhaegar wasn't just some bloke--he's the crowned prince and heir. So it's pushing sociatial expectations (Lyanna being a dutiful daughter and marrying Robert) but it's countered by the reality of the realm (The Targs are large anc in charge). Lyanna might have thought that would be her saving grace. But because it got spun as "abduction" instead of willingly leaving and then because the Mad King was...mad...it all spun out of control.

[Fire Eater]

Nice!

I wonder... do we know how Visenya felt about sharing her husband?

It was said that Visenya had a dark, unforgiving side, and she had no problem screwing over her sister's grandchildren to crown her son king. Visenya knew Aegon was obligated to marry her, but he didn't have to marry Rhaenys. Aegon also spent more time with Rhaenys, and gave her five children compared to Visenya's one child, Maegor. I think she didn't forgive Rhaenys for "stealing" Aegon, or what should have been her line's birthright as kings.

[Ser Leftwich]

The real factor in this -- and who we need to know more about -- is Lyanna Stark. She's the one breaking with custom after hearing all her life that "Winter is coming." Why did she either go willingly, or if unwilling, why did she not pull an Arya and slip out of his grasp? I do like R+L=J and believe she loved him because that's where the clues seem to be leaning. But it's such a strange thing for a lady of the North to do.

Lyanna has also heard all her life that she is property of her father to marry off as he pleases; and that her older brother Brandon and others, like Robert, do as they please with women.

What evidence of the behavior of "ladies of the North" do we have? Just a short list: Alys Karstark, the Mormont clan, Wylla Manderly, Lady Barbrey Dustin nee Ryswell.

Looking at those cases, we have a bunch of women doing as the please.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

It is, even taking into account how much like Arya Lyanna is. But Rhaegar wasn't just some bloke--he's the crowned prince and heir. So it's pushing sociatial expectations (Lyanna being a dutiful daughter and marrying Robert) but it's countered by the reality of the realm (The Targs are large anc in charge). Lyanna might have thought that would be her saving grace. But because it got spun as "abduction" instead of willingly leaving and then because the Mad King was...mad...it all spun out of control.

Very true. Since GRRM is drawing on medieval history, I wonder if we'll find out the real R+L situation was something like Simon de Montfort's supposed "abduction" of Eleanor Plantagenet (Henry III's younger sister) in the mid-13th century. De Montfort had the king's tacit consent to the marriage but the barons knew nothing about it and were furious. So was the king's brother. It was a mess of communication but it's one of my favorite tangled historical chapters from the Middle Ages.

Things turned out fine for Simon, at least in the short term, and he was able to pacify the prince and the barons, but IIRC, Edward I eventually killed him. I could see GRRM asking "well, what if things hadn't gone well, and everyone assumed Simon abducted/raped Eleanor?" I don't know if there's a parallel during the Wars of the Roses, but as I told my best guy friend who's been reading ASoIaF since the 90s, R+L seems so much like a Simon and Eleanor situation gone bad.

Maybe Rhaegar had the tacit consent of Rickard to take Lyanna, but without Rickard's expressed "knowledge" of it. This way, House Stark wouldn't grievously offend House Baratheon... the older LP was dead, Robert was still relatively young, and once Lyanna's elopement was a fait accompli, perhaps they figured Robert would move on to another suitable LP's daughter. Perhaps even Cersei Lannister, who was beautiful and from the House of the King's Hand. If Lyanna knew about Robert's wenching, I'm sure Lord Stark and the Prince knew of it, too. It may have been common knowledge.

Which leads me to wonder if Rhaegar and/or Lyanna tried to leave word, but somehow it was intercepted because of one of the theories. I think I've read that on an earlier thread, but can't recall what the answer was. But I think it's telling that it wasn't Lord Stark who was the first to protest, but his heir Brandon, who may not have had all the information. Some key incident happened that led Rhaegar to speed up the timeline.

There's no way of knowing until or unless GRRM does his big reveal. But I am starting to believe that R+L is something that Princess Elia and Lord Rickard knew about and consented to -- Elia because of the prophecy (especially because of Dany's dream in the House of the Undying), and Rickard because it was a better match than a Baratheon one. I agree with those who say it's interesting that all of a sudden, after many years of preserving the bloodlines of the First Men, Rickard began matching his kids up with LPs in the South.

Putting his daughter on the throne (Targaryen) trumped making her the lady of a powerful Southern house related to the throne (Baratheon). Because at first, I was making the assumption that Rickard was a lot like Ned in personality, so he'd never go for his only daughter becoming a second wife in some weird polygamous situation. However, we don't really know what Rickard was thinking. If Rickard did want the throne, I could see him thinking it would even be justice -- his ancestor Torrhen Stark bent the knee, but one of his grandchildren might sit on the Iron Throne, and another might reign as King in the North. (The hilarious thing is that one or more of his grandchildren might do just that!)

It was said that Visenya had a dark, unforgiving side, and she had no problem screwing over her sister's grandchildren to crown her son king. Visenya knew Aegon was obligated to marry her, but he didn't have to marry Rhaenys. Aegon also spent more time with Rhaenys, and gave her five children compared to Visenya's one child, Maegor. I think she didn't forgive Rhaenys for "stealing" Aegon, or what should have been her line's birthright as kings.

It's funny how much the legends have cleaned up what was probably a messy situation. Would love to read a short story about the Conquest, although right now, I'd rather have TWoW...

Lyanna has also heard all her life that she is property of her father to marry off as he pleases; and that her older brother Brandon and others, like Robert, do as they please with women.

What evidence of the behavior of "ladies of the North" do we have? Just a short list: Alys Karstark, the Mormont clan, Wylla Manderly, Lady Barbrey Dustin nee Ryswell.

Looking at those cases, we have a bunch of women doing as the please.

I think I am making the mistake many new readers might -- assuming that the present generation of House Stark gives us clues about House Stark throughout all history. Ned, Catelyn, and their children may have been an exception and not a rule.

[Ygrain]

Very true. Since GRRM is drawing on medieval history, I wonder if we'll find out the real R+L situation was something like Simon de Montfort's supposed "abduction" of Eleanor Plantagenet (Henry III's younger sister) in the mid-13th century. De Montfort had the king's tacit consent to the marriage but the barons knew nothing about it and were furious. So was the king's brother. It was a mess of communication but it's one of my favorite tangled historical chapters from the Middle Ages.

Things turned out fine for Simon, at least in the short term, and he was able to pacify the prince and the barons, but IIRC, Edward I eventually killed him. I could see GRRM asking "well, what if things hadn't gone well, and everyone assumed Simon abducted/raped Eleanor?" I don't know if there's a parallel during the Wars of the Roses, but as I told my best guy friend who's been reading ASoIaF since the 90s, R+L seems so much like a Simon and Eleanor situation gone bad.

Maybe Rhaegar had the tacit consent of Rickard to take Lyanna, but without Rickard's expressed "knowledge" of it. This way, House Stark wouldn't grievously offend House Baratheon... the older LP was dead, Robert was still relatively young, and once Lyanna's elopement was a fait accompli, perhaps they figured Robert would move on to another suitable LP's daughter. Perhaps even Cersei Lannister, who was beautiful and from the House of the King's Hand. If Lyanna knew about Robert's wenching, I'm sure Lord Stark and the Prince knew of it, too. It may have been common knowledge.

Which leads me to wonder if Rhaegar and/or Lyanna tried to leave word, but somehow it was intercepted because of one of the theories. I think I've read that on an earlier thread, but can't recall what the answer was. But I think it's telling that it wasn't Lord Stark who was the first to protest, but his heir Brandon, who may not have had all the information. Some key incident happened that led Rhaegar to speed up the timeline.

There's no way of knowing until or unless GRRM does his big reveal. But I am starting to believe that R+L is something that Princess Elia and Lord Rickard knew about and consented to -- Elia because of the prophecy (especially because of Dany's dream in the House of the Undying), and Rickard because it was a better match than a Baratheon one. I agree with those who say it's interesting that all of a sudden, after many years of preserving the bloodlines of the First Men, Rickard began matching his kids up with LPs in the South.

Putting his daughter on the throne (Targaryen) trumped making her the lady of a powerful Southern house related to the throne (Baratheon). Because at first, I was making the assumption that Rickard was a lot like Ned in personality, so he'd never go for his only daughter becoming a second wife in some weird polygamous situation. However, we don't really know what Rickard was thinking. If Rickard did want the throne, I could see him thinking it would even be justice -- his ancestor Torrhen Stark bent the knee, but one of his grandchildren might sit on the Iron Throne, and another might reign as King in the North. (The hilarious thing is that one or more of his grandchildren might do just that!)

It's funny how much the legends have cleaned up what was probably a messy situation. Would love to read a short story about the Conquest, although right now, I'd rather have TWoW...

I think I am making the mistake many new readers might -- assuming that the present generation of House Stark gives us clues about House Stark throughout all history. Ned, Catelyn, and their children may have been an exception and not a rule.

Wow, a staged abduction? That would perfectly explain Rickard's lack of response (as has already been speculated)

As for another historical parallel, John Lackland and Isabela of Angouleme :-)