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R+L=J v.83


Angalin

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The timeline is much to constricted to suggest that this could have happened. Also, many seem stuck on the idea that Rhaegar took Lyanna, and I believe it may have been the other way around. Lyanna taking Rhaegar, then convincing him to save her from Robert . . .

I don't know that either one "took" the other. I think it was a mutually agreed upon decision. Lyanna may have pushed becaue that was her nature, but Rhaegar was willing because he was in love. And then when all hell broke loose, Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (I think that was one of the first orders of business for them both) and Rhaegar wasn't about to send his second wife back to the Stark family to live out her days (cause you know she's "damaged goods" now with everyone believing that Rhaegar was raping her).

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I don't know that either one "took" the other. I think it was a mutually agreed upon decision. Lyanna may have pushed becaue that was her nature, but Rhaegar was willing because he was in love. And then when all hell broke loose, Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (I think that was one of the first orders of business for them both) and Rhaegar wasn't about to send his second wife back to the Stark family to live out her days (cause you know she's "damaged goods" now with everyone believing that Rhaegar was raping her).

That's always how I assumed it went down. Also, sending her back across a war-torn country is probably a no-no. Especially with her carrying the subject of this thread.

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The discussion on Rhaegar and Lyanna seems to focus so much on the romantic. I wonder about that. I've only read these books once, and that was over many years, so my recollections are not trustworthy, but I can't recall any marriages based on romance in the whole series. Love can develop over time and marriages can work, but that's never why they're made. In fact the only true romance I can really think of, is Loras and Renly. In the series, romance is an illusory gloss put on a harsh truth, as Sandor tries to teach Sansa, Jonquil and Florian aren't the real world.

And the issue of polygamy. I'd forgotten all about that until someone reminded me, because I thought it a thing of the past. When they had dragons the Targs could conquer and rule with impunity. But that is not the case in the time of Rhaegar, the Targs have lost their dragons. The king has no standing army, he is only as strong as the loyalty of the houses that support him. And marriage is the biggest weapon in the arsenal for winning loyalty. But it's one thing to be THE in-laws of the king or crown prince, vs one of two (or more) in-laws.

In the time of Rhaegar, the Targs had already upset the Lannisters right? And now by wedding Lyanna the Targs upset the Baratheons and the Starks (who are already in a marriage alliance with Tully), and maybe the Arryns who squire Baratheon and Stark sons, and possibly the Dornes who are sort of supplanted or diminished as the in-laws of the crown prince. That's an awful lot of power in the land to overtly dishonor or potentially displease. It's almost madness. So maybe Aerys wasn't the only mad one. Viserys is not all there and neither is Dany, I mean walking into a funeral bier on faith?

And this with Rhaegar. But the way Rhaegar is consistently spoken off... not a crazy dude. So the romance angle on all this, I dunno. Was he that reckless? Or am I just wrong to assume that a wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna posed any risk to the Targs, since the proximate cause of the war is Aerys?

It always struck me as odd that Ned and Robert got on as well as they did with each other.

Yeah. "You were never the boy you were." Just doesn't seem like the two would have bonded over similar interests or a shared attitude, even if they grew up together. But I suppose before Robert discovered alcohol and women, they bonded doing the things kids do, and the events drew them closer together.

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The discussion on Rhaegar and Lyanna seems to focus so much on the romantic. I wonder about that. I've only read these books once, and that was over many years, so my recollections are not trustworthy, but I can't recall any marriages based on romance in the whole series. Love can develop over time and marriages can work, but that's never why they're made. In fact the only true romance I can really think of, is Loras and Renly. In the series, romance is an illusory gloss put on a harsh truth, as Sandor tries to teach Sansa, Jonquil and Florian aren't the real world.

If not romantic then what, I wonder? Because I don't think Lyanna was stolen in the night by Rhaegar. He's not actually Paris to her Helen, a man who kidnaps someone from her proper leige lord (in our case, Lyanna's father since she was unwed). Lyanna may have been a bit wild but I find it hard to beleive that she could convince the crown prince to just take her away, espeically after the tourrney and the roses. And I know this not 100% for sure (I think) but Rhaegar does die speaking the name of the woman he loved and I don't think it's Elia. I think you're right that romance is a gloss over a harsh truth, but isnt' that totally what Lyanna and Rhaegar ARE? The true romance in the series that turns a kingdom on its head, starts a war, overthrows a 300yr old dynasty and results in the death of both parties (and many more besides?). The harsh truth is that romance and love exist, like in the songs, but it seldom turns out well.

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If not romantic then what, I wonder?

I vaguely seem to recall some bit where Rhaegar mentions "the song of ice and fire." Is that a false memory? If he did mention it, given that he actively sought fulfillment of prophecy (also that bit Selmy mentions about, "it appears I must become a warrior", and Dany's vision about Rhaegar mistakenly announcing tPwwP), maybe he came to the conclusion that Lyanna was an ice element he needed to marry to his fire to produce tPwwP. Maybe he did abduct her and rape her hundreds of times.

Because you know what? I feel sorry as hell for Robert. If Rhaegar and Lyanna was about romance, Robert's whole life is a lie. Maybe that's what happened. But that's effin sad.

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I vaguely seem to recall some bit where Rhaegar mentions "the song of ice and fire." Is that a false memory? If he did mention it, given that he actively sought fulfillment of prophecy (also that bit Selmy mentions about, "it appears I must become a warrior", and Dany's vision about Rhaegar mistakenly announcing tPwwP), maybe he came to the conclusion that Lyanna was an ice element he needed to marry to his fire to produce tPwwP. Maybe he did abduct her and rape her hundreds of times.

Because you know what? I feel sorry as hell for Robert. If Rhaegar and Lyanna was about romance, Robert's whole life is a lie. Maybe that's what happened. But that's effin sad.

Vision Rhaegar does in the House of the Undying to Dany. Rhaegar does decide to become a warrior after he reads a prophecy and thinks that he is TPTWP, and then later he thinks it's baby Aegon. But we don't know that in his life Rhaegar actually knew anything about "a song of ice and fire" And in fact, in the vision, the Rhaegar Dany sees tells her that there must be another and that this other is TPTWP and his is the song of ice and fire.

I feel sorry for Robert but I feel sorry for them all. Robert's whole life IS a life. But it's one that he constructed. He put Lyanna up as "the perfect woman" without really seeing her for who she was.

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I'm loving Rhaegar the troll :3

Anyway, I've always assume that it's during the Tourney when they officially met, Robert and Lyanna, I mean.

And there was a nice parody around here (or somewhere) about the whole thing. We have Robert being Robert, drinking and smashing things yelling "LYANNA! LOOK! LOOK! I'M ALL DRUNK AND SMASHING THINGS FUCK YEAH!" while Rhaegar was playing his harp and looking at her with a "sucks for you" look on his face :lol:

Brandon Stark, defender of the playahs.

Haha YUP.

ASOIAF Playah Club...Must father and abandon at least 3 bastards to enter. Or deflower and abandon at least 3 unmarried women.

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If not romantic then what, I wonder? Because I don't think Lyanna was stolen in the night by Rhaegar. He's not actually Paris to her Helen, a man who kidnaps someone from her proper leige lord (in our case, Lyanna's father since she was unwed). Lyanna may have been a bit wild but I find it hard to beleive that she could convince the crown prince to just take her away, espeically after the tourrney and the roses. And I know this not 100% for sure (I think) but Rhaegar does die speaking the name of the woman he loved and I don't think it's Elia. I think you're right that romance is a gloss over a harsh truth, but isnt' that totally what Lyanna and Rhaegar ARE? The true romance in the series that turns a kingdom on its head, starts a war, overthrows a 300yr old dynasty and results in the death of both parties (and many more besides?). The harsh truth is that romance and love exist, like in the songs, but it seldom turns out well.

That sounds like a Greek tragedy, too...

....a true romance between two people who barely knew each other? two people who couldn't have spend more than ten days in each other's presence, before "eloping"? Ten days, because that's apparently how long the tourney lasted. And, seeing as there was a scandal, they probably couldn't even spend time together then; at the risk of causing even more rumors, and of Lyanna's honor being questioned.

As I've said in the previous thread, I simply do not see how an elopement could have been planned secretly, between the two, without Rickard knowing -- because ravens are unreliable, and always go first through the maester -- maester Walys, in this case. Even a rider in the night, bearing a message from Lyanna's beloved Prince would not imho, have gone unnoticed.

Thus, I see only these solutions:

1) Rhaegar planned it all on his own, showed up after a year apart, and persuaded her to come along.

2) He really did take her against her will.

3) others like Rickard himself, were involved.

Asoiaf has often been praised for its realism. In reality, people are complex. Their interactions are complex. Their motives are complex. Love, is complex. And so is war. I don’t buy that the whole war started because of R+L. That their story proves an adequate scapegoat? yes. But I don’t think that was the root of the war at all -- not solely, in any case. RR happened all of 16/17 years ago after all; and victors do what victors do...

One can ask the question on the forum: who or what started the war of the five Kings? the answers will wary; it is difficult to place the blame sorely at one's person's feet. (Was it Cersei/Jaime? Petyr's ambitions? Cat's capturing of Tyrion? Ned's naivety when dealing with Cersei? Robert’s attitude and disinterest that allowed people to scheme without fear of reprisal? On and on it goes...)

On another note, the story not starting as a love story, doesn't prevent it from involving into one. Rhaegar's motives being multiple, does not in fact contradict that he could have died with the name of the "woman he loved" on his lips.

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Thus, I see only these solutions:

1) Rhaegar planned it all on his own, showed up after a year apart, and persuaded her to come along.

2) He really did take her against her will.

3) others like Rickard himself, were involved.

Asoiaf has often been praised for its realism. In reality, people are complex. Their interactions are complex. Their motives are complex. Love, is complex. And so is war. I don’t buy that the whole war started because of R+L. That their story proves an adequate scapegoat? yes. But I don’t think that was the root of the war at all -- not solely, in any case. RR happened all of 16/17 years ago after all; and victors do what victors do...

I don't think R+L is solely to blame either because war is far more complex than that. There is the Aerys factor. There's the "nothing built can last forever" factor. Personal family ambitions. Various political affliations.

Of the three options you gave, I'm inclined to think that Rickard was more invovled or at the very least he looked the other way when Lyanna left/was persuaded to leave. If Rickard really did have southeron ambitions (agreeing to wed Lyanna to Robert) then you don't get bigger and more powerful than the ruling family (save perhaps the Lannisters which is why I was always curious as to what Rickard's plans for Ned were). If Rickard just looks the other way, then at the very least he can get something out of the crown prince "stealing" his daughter and raping/impregnating her.

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My feeling is that Rhaegar discovered that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and was smitten/ intrigued by her. Rhaegar already thought that he needed a third child to fulfill his interpretation of the "Dragon has Three Heads" and that Ellia was not able to have a third child.


Rhaegar was already on the look out for a mother to his Visenya, I think that Ellia at least knew that he planned on having another wife so that he could accomplish this. If she was OK with it really doesn't matter as he is the Crown Prince to the Kingdom.



I think that Lyanna, being the stubborn rebellious kid that she was, was also smitten with Rhaegar and ran to him to escape her arranged marriage to Robert. After all, he was the Prince and he could change all of it if he wanted to.



They both failed to predict that Brandon would be such a hot head and that the King would start roasting all of them and demanding the heads of Robert and Ned.


At that point it was too late to do anything about it. They couldn't get peace with the Rebels because Robert would want his head. Rhaegar had to fight with the Targaryen forces because if the rebels won his whole family would be wiped out.


I think the plan was to try and set things right was to get the upper hands on the rebels, overthrow his father and become King and then after they had one pardon at least the Starks to make Lyanna happy.


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I definitely doubt Rhaegar was looking a new "mother" for his child. I think he met Lyanna, they got involved, she got pregnant and then, he realised that child would be the third head of the Dragon, hence, the need to protect her.



There is an interesting bit in Dance, about this. In the epilogue, when Kevan is remembering the girl Cersei was, he says:



"And when she’d flowered, ahhhh ... had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes ... and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun".



Looks like Kevan is implying that the reason of Rhaegar leaving with Lyanna is that Elia couldn't have more children and Rhaegar wanted more. I wonder if that's the "official" version some might have.



Which is odd because, how he would know? Barristan remembers that Elia was bedridden after Aegon was born, but who else? Connington knew she couldn't have more kids but he isn't exactly an stranger. Maybe Pycelle?


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I definitely doubt Rhaegar was looking a new "mother" for his child. I think he met Lyanna, they got involved, she got pregnant and then, he realised that child would be the third head of the Dragon, hence, the need to protect her.

There is an interesting bit in Dance, about this. In the epilogue, when Kevan is remembering the girl Cersei was, he says:

"And when she’d flowered, ahhhh ... had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes ... and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun".

Looks like Kevan is implying that the reason of Rhaegar leaving with Lyanna is that Elia couldn't have more children and Rhaegar wanted more. I wonder if that's the "official" version some might have.

Which is odd because, how he would know? Barristan remembers that Elia was bedridden after Aegon was born, but who else? Connington knew she couldn't have more kids but he isn't exactly an stranger. Maybe Pycelle?

Why would you doubt it?

If Rhaegar said there needed to be one more, and his wife could have more kids....

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I definitely doubt Rhaegar was looking a new "mother" for his child. I think he met Lyanna, they got involved, she got pregnant and then, he realised that child would be the third head of the Dragon, hence, the need to protect her.

There is an interesting bit in Dance, about this. In the epilogue, when Kevan is remembering the girl Cersei was, he says:

"And when she’d flowered, ahhhh ... had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes ... and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun".

Looks like Kevan is implying that the reason of Rhaegar leaving with Lyanna is that Elia couldn't have more children and Rhaegar wanted more. I wonder if that's the "official" version some might have.

Which is odd because, how he would know? Barristan remembers that Elia was bedridden after Aegon was born, but who else? Connington knew she couldn't have more kids but he isn't exactly an stranger. Maybe Pycelle?

Are we 100% sure, though, that historical Rhaegar (not Vision Rhaegar in Dany's trip to the House of the Undying) wanted 3 children? Am I fogetting something outsdie of the House of the Undying (which is quite possible). But if not, then I don't think we can apply what the Vision Rheagar says to the historical one. The scene in the house of the undying is mostly false, given that we know Elia almost died birthing Aegon. So if only Vision Rheagar knew that the dragon needed three heads, but not the historical one, I don't think he'd be concerned with the number of children he had at, let alone looking for a mother for his final one.

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Are we 100% sure, though, that historical Rhaegar (not Vision Rhaegar in Dany's trip to the House of the Undying) wanted 3 children? Am I fogetting something outsdie of the House of the Undying (which is quite possible). But if not, then I don't think we can apply what the Vision Rheagar says to the historical one. The scene in the house of the undying is mostly false, given that we know Elia almost died birthing Aegon. So if only Vision Rheagar knew that the dragon needed three heads, but not the historical one, I don't think he'd be concerned with the number of children he had at, let alone looking for a mother for his final one.

Yes we are 100% sure he wanted 3 kids. He says "The Dragon has three heads, there must be one more"

He named his kids Rhaenys and Aegon... 2/3rds of the original 3 headed dragon.

And as far as Ellia almost dying in birth, that is true but it does not specify in the Vision if it was the same day as the birth. It could have been a week later, a month later.

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I don't think R+L is solely to blame either because war is far more complex than that. There is the Aerys factor. There's the "nothing built can last forever" factor. Personal family ambitions. Various political affliations.

Of the three options you gave, I'm inclined to think that Rickard was more invovled or at the very least he looked the other way when Lyanna left/was persuaded to leave. If Rickard really did have southeron ambitions (agreeing to wed Lyanna to Robert) then you don't get bigger and more powerful than the ruling family (save perhaps the Lannisters which is why I was always curious as to what Rickard's plans for Ned were). If Rickard just looks the other way, then at the very least he can get something out of the crown prince "stealing" his daughter and raping/impregnating her.

That's possible too, that he just looked the other way... :)

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