R+L=J v.83

[JonCon's Red Beard]

OT... how many bastards were born after that Tourney....? one wonders...

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Double post. ;)

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Correct. For some reason, that scene is a blank-spot in my mind. I never remember it. Ugh.

Let me try to explain it some more. Nedbert are both 18 at the time of Tourney. Robert is LP of Stormlamds. Being from Stormlamds (faith of seven) and being fostered in Vale (faith dominated region) its not hard to deduce that he must have been knighted, possibly by Jon himself. As such when he would come for Tourney he would come with his retinue (squires, guards for LP, and such). If Ned came for Tourney directly from Vale he also would have some squires, guards and such. So we have many points from where the gossip about Robert having a bastard would have leaked to the lords in general and Lyanna in particular.

Mayhaps Robert also went looking for TKOLT, mayhaps with Rhaegar himself, them being cousin and all.If they found lyanna, Robert would have seen his own free spirit in lyanna, hence his proposal to Ned about marriage & his irritation towards Rhaegar when Rhae-man crowned lyanna. That irritation festered in lifelong hatred,for Rhaegar when he stole Lyanna from Robert.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

This reminds me of a discussion we had way back in the thirties of this thread series... So, yes, I like this very much.

As for the contention that Rickard would have been opposed to incest... Rickard had married his own cousin anyway, so I can't see him complaining with a straight face really.

Ha! Glad to see perhaps I wasn't so crazy after all. :) Add in the historical precedents for this from the real world and I think maybe even a bit of this may be possible. Can't wait to read through the thread.

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll get the full backstory of the events of 281-early 282 until ADoS. That title isn't a coincidence. But I hope Jon learns of his parentage, or readers at least get some confirmation, in TWoW.

[Alia of the knife]

Who says he aint emotionally involved? When he thinks about Harrenhal tourney & Ashara's dishonour, his opinion seems to be mildly coloured by his own emotions towards her. When talking to Dany about Aerys's madness, he is clearly reluctant about going all out. He tries to sandwitch that facet of Aerys between positive (?) aspects of his persona. Every chatacter in ASOIAF is emotionally involved.

He loves nothing so much as his own honor and his job. While he might have had some feelings towards Ashara, they weren't enough to turn in his cloak.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

He loves nothing so much as his own honor and his job. While he might have had some feelings towards Ashara, they weren't enough to turn in his cloak.

I wasnt saying his feelings would cause him to turn in his cloak, but just enough to make him slightly subjective.

[Greymoon]

I wasnt saying his feelings would cause him to turn in his cloak, but just enough to make him slightly subjective.

tbh, I don't think we can trust Barristan's opinion either -- he does not have a mind for politics for one; nor does he have imo; an understanding for the motivations behind breaking vows. He is too "strict", too honor bound for that. I perceived him a bit... simple. He might not be a "yes man" any longer; but his views are a bit skewed; and his understanding of right/wrong a bit naive.

....

On another note, I've speculated in the "how did Lyanna eat" thread :) that Rhaegar wasn't really trying to hide -- not at the beginning, not right after the kidnap >> that he was in fact at Summerhall (only avoiding court; not purposely hiding from Robert or Brandon, or any Starks >> that works if the kidnap was staged and Rickard aware)...

It is just on the edge on the dornish marches, so that a retreat to the toj makes sense when trouble started; especially considering the proximity of Storm's End. Further, we have heard from Davos that loyalist lords from the Stormlands meant to join forces at Summerhall but were crushed by Robert before they could (an indication that Rhaegar did try to rally lords before the rebellion got out of hand...and escaped through the red mountains?).

Summerhall is bound to Rhaegar. He was emotionally invested in it.... It seems a place he'd have wanted to share with Lyanna if she was important to him.

....the reason I speculated this is -- I've said it before and I'll keep saying it ;) -- that the toj, to me does not seem a good choice, or even a practical one for keeping a paramour or second wife over a long period of time... Rhaegar has traveled to summerhall often...and could have "nested" there, over the years...brought some supplies and what not; for longer stays... (he might even have envisioned to have the ruin rebuild, no?)

Plus it ties to Jon neatly...it was the seat of the second son; and there’s a dichotomy between Summer hall; and Winter fell, as there is between fire and ice...

(and the whole story of Summerhall...it was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not? Dany to Arstan... I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours the ghost of High heart to Arya... Did we learn nothing of Summerhall? No good has ever come of these dreams of dragons. Alester Florent to Davos.... I know the story of Summerhall of course, and why grief is associated to it...but, there could be another message there, as well, no? to me it seems a more logical place to go to since it is so intimately bound to Rhaegar...)

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

tbh, I don't think we can trust Barristan's opinion either -- he does not have a mind for politics for one; nor does he have imo; an understanding for the motivations behind breaking vows. He is too "strict", too honor bound for that. I perceived him a bit... simple. He might not be a "yes man" any longer; but his views are a bit skewed; and his understanding of right/wrong a bit naive.

....

On another note, I've speculated in the "how did Lyanna eat" thread :) that Rhaegar wasn't really trying to hide -- not at the beginning, not right after the kidnap >> that he was in fact at Summerhall (only avoiding court; not purposely hiding from Robert or Brandon, or any Starks >> that works if the kidnap was staged and Rickard aware)...

It is just on the edge on the dornish marches, so that a retreat to the toj makes sense when trouble started; especially considering the proximity of Storm's End. Further, we have heard from Davos that loyalist lords from the Stormlands meant to join forces at Summerhall but were crushed by Robert before they could (an indication that Rhaegar did try to rally lords before the rebellion got out of hand...and escaped through the red mountains?).

Summerhall is bound to Rhaegar. He was emotionally invested in it.... It seems a place he'd have wanted to share with Lyanna if she was important to him.

....the reason I speculated this is -- I've said it before and I'll keep saying it ;) -- that the toj, to me does not seem a good choice, or even a practical one for keeping a paramour or second wife over a long period of time... Rhaegar has traveled to summerhall often...and could have "nested" there, over the years...brought some supplies and what not; for longer stays... (he might even have envisioned to have the ruin rebuild, no?)

Plus it ties to Jon neatly...it was the seat of the second son; and theres a dichotomy between Summer hall; and Winter fell, as there is between fire and ice...

(and the whole story of Summerhall...it was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not? Dany to Arstan... I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours the ghost of High heart to Arya... Did we learn nothing of Summerhall? No good has ever come of these dreams of dragons. Alester Florent to Davos.... I know the story of Summerhall of course, and why grief is associated to it...but, there could be another message there, as well, no? to me it seems a more logical place to go to since it is so intimately bound to Rhaegar...)

First up I have a request. Could you please post the link with a map, preferably approved by Martin, becoz I have only map of Southern Westeros from ASOS, which doesnt show ToJ.

Moving to Rhaegar, hiding at Summerhall works only if he was working with Rickard (which I doubt very much) but it also carries the risk of Robert learning about it, just as he learnt about three Stormlords convening at Summerhall, showing despite lords being Loyalists, Robert's information network was very much functional.

Coming to Rickard,why in seven hells would he agree with Rhaegar to run off with his daughter, having announced her bethrotal just months ago (which I believe,as I have explained upthread, happened after the tourney). It had added risk of making Rickard a outcast in Westerosi Nobility, especially his co conspirators (if he was harbouring southron political ambitions). His duplicity would have eventually caught up with him. Paraphrasing Areo Hotah "Someone always talks". Moreover how did Rickard communicate with Rhaegar. Only two modes seem possible. Ravens, but they would go through Wylis Flowers, who was behind instigating Rickards southron ambitions by convincing him to marry his children in Southern Great Houses. Wylis would nip that plan in the bud by either not allowing messages to reach Rickard (very much possible) or by outing Rickard to other Southron LPs, Hoster and maybe Robert himself. Or if Rhaegar visited Rickard in Winterfell, maybe enroute to Wall, Ned or Cat (from secondary sources) would have mentioned that in their internal monologues.

[Alia of the knife]

I wasnt saying his feelings would cause him to turn in his cloak, but just enough to make him slightly subjective.

I think it's exactly because of his simplicity that makes him a more reliable POV.

Even his "passion" for Ashara is slightly dispassionate and set against the backdrop of how his actions might have prevented events.

Lady Dustins POV has pretty much been accepted on Brandon and the Starks, and she certainly isn't objective.

As I said, Martin is going to finally give the answers through certain characters at some point and if there is "reader resistance" against what is revealed because it contradicts favorite theories, there will never be a resolution.

I've even seen Howland Reeds credibility raked over the coals, and he hasn't even put in an appearance yet.

I think given Martins affinity for history and authors that have influenced him, (particularly Faulkner), quoting his "a heart in conflict with itself," and the constant reminder on "how love is the death of duty," as well as the theme of "the things we do for love," what happened with R+L isn't that complicated.

Especially if it comes down to a clash between doing the right thing, but wanting something entirely different and trying to reconcile the two.

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

Mayhaps Robert also went looking for TKOLT, mayhaps with Rhaegar himself, them being cousin and all.If they found lyanna, Robert would have seen his own free spirit in lyanna, hence his proposal to Ned about marriage & his irritation towards Rhaegar when Rhae-man crowned lyanna. That irritation festered in lifelong hatred,for Rhaegar when he stole Lyanna from Robert.

I don't think Robert went to look for TKOLT because Ned makes a comment about he didn't know Lyanna's wildness. Robert seemed more interested in women who were like "Your the Lord of Storm's End. Anything for you m'lord." or "Your the King? And you want to sleep with me? I would be so honored." Do you see Lyanna acting like this because I don't.

[Greymoon]

snip

http://barbariana.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Map1-3_The_South_AGOT.jpg

...the map looks a little strange to me (an old version perhaps?) but, it'll do well enough. The toj isn't on this one -- though it is located in between Kingsgrave and Nightsong; at the borders of the Red Mountains. Yes; going to Summerhall only works if Rhaegar was not expecting big trouble...that he probably wasn't.

It takes him close to Storm's End. But Robert was first in the Vale iirc. the ToJ on the other hand takes him to Fowler lands (seat is Skyreach, also not on the map, though, south of Kingsgrave, at the edge of the Princes's pass). House Fowler are Warden of the Pass... I expect, they would be guarding it, especially during war; yes? so they should be aware of the KG, of Rhaegar, and of Lyanna staying for an extended period of time in their lands.

(another reason I find the "extended" to be unlikely; or not part of any original plan....I picture a flight from Summerhall and Robert's approaching troops, through the mountains to the toj, where Gerold Hightower caught up with them. If they were moving they would have been more difficult to track; and if they stayed only a short time; Fowlers would be less likely to notice their presence....and once the dornish join with Rhaegar at the trident, the question imo, becomes moot.)

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Fowler

Anyway, two ways to go from Summerhall -- the Bone Way, or right across the mountains...

What I'm not saying is that they actually stayed at Summerhall for a long while -- only that this was the plan, to begin with. Summerhall is located further south than Kingslanding...Who would arrive at their respective destination first, Brandon? or Rhaegar and Lyanna?

The only info we have, as far as I can recall about the battle of Summerhall, comes from Davos -- who did not fight alongside Robert, no? The lords Robert "crushed" were Stormlords, too. Loyal to the Targaryens, but actually -- sworn to him. So, he would imo, have known quite fast and easily enough that they did not mean to join him in his rebellion... (doesn't mean he was informed of Rhaegar's whereabouts; only about the Lords plans to gather there.)

I'm just thinking there might have been a reason for them to join forces at Summerhall, beyond it being a ruined seat of house Targaryen. It answer the question also of – why didn’t Rhaegar do anything before the trident? Well, here, maybe he did – though it would appear he did not try to coordinate efforts with his father – else, yes, we’ve certainly have heard of it.

As for why Ned, does Ned ever think explicitly about Rhaegar being Jon's father? Ned knew too much, that is why he had to die ;) else, he'd have eventually spilled all of GRRM's secrets.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

I don't think Robert went to look for TKOLT because Ned makes a comment about he didn't know Lyanna's wildness. Robert seemed more interested in women who were like "Your the Lord of Storm's End. Anything for you m'lord." or "Your the King? And you want to sleep with me? I would be so honored." Do you see Lyanna acting like this because I don't.

Ned's exact quote goes like this "Robert only ever loved lyanna, he never saw the steel underneath". That seems to indicate strong views on things like infidelity or women's status in society (both things she shows with her doubts about Robert ,or her sword fighting with Benjen).

The second quote is exactly what would fit the situation with Rhaegar, if Lyanna ran away after expressing her doubts about Robert's faithfulness. That's why I'm of strong opinion that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar with help from Arthur Dayne & Oswell Whent. Maybe their dynamics of relation changed later.

[Greymoon]

His duplicity would have eventually caught up with him. Paraphrasing Areo Hotah "Someone always talks". Moreover how did Rickard communicate with Rhaegar. Only two modes seem possible. Ravens, but they would go through Wylis Flowers, who was behind instigating Rickards southron ambitions by convincing him to marry his children in Southern Great Houses. Wylis would nip that plan in the bud by either not allowing messages to reach Rickard (very much possible) or by outing Rickard to other Southron LPs, Hoster and maybe Robert himself. Or if Rhaegar visited Rickard in Winterfell, maybe enroute to Wall, Ned or Cat (from secondary sources) would have mentioned that in their internal monologues.

That imo, doesn't matter. It's a matter of playing according to socially acceptable rules -- to put on a show, a mummers show so people can turn the other way without having to out, or openly antagonize, an eventually important lord/ally. This way, most are happy ('side Bob).

The lie doesn't need to be credible; it only needs to be told to provide an "out” and a justification. The rest, I cannot say; I know only that Ned has hidden much from us.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

http://barbariana.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Map1-3_The_South_AGOT.jpg

...the map looks a little strange to me (an old version perhaps?) but, it'll do well enough. The toj isn't on this one -- though it is located in between Kingsgrave and Nightsong; at the borders of the Red Mountains. Yes; going to Summerhall only works if Rhaegar was not expecting big trouble...that he probably wasn't.

It takes him close to Storm's End. But Robert was first in the Vale iirc. the ToJ on the other hand takes him to Fowler lands (seat is Skyreach, also not on the map, though, south of Kingsgrave, at the edge of the Princes's pass). House Fowler are Warden of the Pass... I expect, they would be guarding it, especially during war; yes? so they should be aware of the KG, of Rhaegar, and of Lyanna staying for an extended period of time in their lands.

(another reason I find the "extended" to be unlikely; or not part of any original plan....I picture a flight from Summerhall and Robert's approaching troops, through the mountains to the toj, where Gerold Hightower caught up with them. If they were moving they would have been more difficult to track; and if they stayed only a short time; Fowlers would be less likely to notice their presence....and once the dornish join with Rhaegar at the trident, the question imo, becomes moot.)

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Fowler

Anyway, two ways to go from Summerhall -- the Bone Way, or right across the mountains...

What I'm not saying is that they actually stayed at Summerhall for a long while -- only that this was the plan, to begin with. Summerhall is located further south than Kingslanding...Who would arrive at their respective destination first, Brandon? or Rhaegar and Lyanna?

The only info we have, as far as I can recall about the battle of Summerhall, comes from Davos -- who did not fight alongside Robert, no? The lords Robert "crushed" were Stormlords, too. Loyal to the Targaryens, but actually -- sworn to him. So, he would imo, have known quite fast and easily enough that they did not mean to join him in his rebellion... (doesn't mean he was informed of Rhaegar's whereabouts; only about the Lords plans to gather there.)

I'm just thinking there might have been a reason for them to join forces at Summerhall, beyond it being a ruined seat of house Targaryen. It answer the question also of why didnt Rhaegar do anything before the trident? Well, here, maybe he did though it would appear he did not try to coordinate efforts with his father else, yes, weve certainly have heard of it.

As for why Ned, does Ned ever think explicitly about Rhaegar being Jon's father? Ned knew too much, that is why he had to die ;) else, he'd have eventually spilled all of GRRM's secrets.

I agree with your arguments. But IIRC Hightower was sent to locate and bring Rhaegar after the Battle of Bells, when Aerys realized for first time that Robert was a threat to his dynasty, not some rebel lord. That would exclude Hightower finding them in immediate aftermath of Summerhall Battle. Also its quite possible Fowlers were conspiring,with Rhaegar, if he was trying to depose his father. Barristan's comment about his "long" visits to Summerhal always seemed suspicious to me. Maybe he went there regularly to make or refine his plans about how to depose his father. Was that the reason of his melancholy songs,when he returned from Summerhall?

Care to answer my quips about Rickard Rhaegar Conspiracy? :) :) :)

[Greymoon]

I agree with your arguments. But IIRC Hightower was sent to locate and bring Rhaegar after the Battle of Bells, when Aerys realized for first time that Robert was a threat to his dynasty, not some rebel lord. That would exclude Hightower finding them in immediate aftermath of Summerhall Battle. Also its quite possible Fowlers were conspiring,with Rhaegar, if he was trying to depose his father. Barristan's comment about his "long" visits to Summerhal always seemed suspicious to me. Maybe he went there regularly to make or refine his plans about how to depose his father. Was that the reason of his melancholy songs,when he returned from Summerhall?

Care to answer my quips about Rickard Rhaegar Conspiracy? :) :) :)

I sort of did, in the second post above. I've stated my thoughts already: that Rhaegar offered a better deal (the discussion was brought up in the previous R+L thread); that the lie didn't need to be credible; and that Ned has been keeping plenty of secrets to himself -- the never ending argument of unreliable narrators...

[Ulthosian Stark]

Another reason that lends itself to proof of this whole thing is that a fight even took place at the tower of joy. The KG knew that everybody was dead, so why guard Lyanna as a hostage? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Unless a child was born.

[J. Stargaryen]

Here is some recent R+L=J related analysis I posted in my blue rose thread. I think it gives a good demonstration of how GRRM uses linguistic similarities to draw allusions between two seemingly unrelated events. In this case, the Tourney of the Hand and the famous Tourney at Harrenhal in the Year of the False Spring (with some Wars of the Roses stuff sprinkled in).

---

There seems to be some R+L=J imagery surrounding Ser Loras Tyrell during the Tourney of the Hand in AGoT. Having spotted these things, I doubt it's a coincidence that GRRM placed them on and around the Knight of Flowers. A character whose sigil is actually a rose. (Fwiw, his personal device is three golden roses. Three being strongly associated with House Targaryen and THotD prophecy. So, maybe that's not a coincidence either.)

Knowing what we know about Jon's identity and his ties to blue roses, GRRM's inclusion of the Knight of Flowers allows him to play around with R+L=J symbolism, as you'll see.

Ser Loras was the youngest son of Mace Tyrell, the Lord of Highgarden and Warden of the South. At sixteen, he was the youngest rider on the field, yet he had unhorsed three knights of the Kingsguard that morning in his first three jousts. Sansa had never seen anyone so beautiful. His plate was intricately fashioned and enameled as a bouquet of a thousand different flowers, and his snow-white stallion was draped in a blanket of red and white roses. After each victory, Ser Loras would remove his helm and ride slowly round the fence, and finally pluck a single white rose from the blanket and toss it to some fair maiden in the crowd.

- AGoT, Sansa II

To begin with, GRRM is using the setting as a hint. Here we are, at a tournament. Not coincidentally, the origins of R+L=J can be traced back to the famous Tourney at Harrenhal in the Year of the False Spring, where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty.

Three knights of the KG who were defeated, just like at the ToJ. Another R+L=J connection. Also, reading "that morning" makes me think of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Perhaps that was even GRRM's intention.

"now-white" is a description we see associated with the KG twice (Eddard I, Sansa II) and Ghost once, Jon I. The nudge to remind readers of Jon Snow is hardly subtle. At most, GRRM could be said to be hiding it in plain sight. Somewhat beside the point, but I do not think it is a coincidence in the least that the Kingsguard wears white, which is of course the color of snow. Yes, like Jon Snow. (Also, see: "snowy cloak," Sansa IV, Eddard XV.)

But further, we have a "blanket of red and white roses." This practically shouts: Wars of the Roses! Which makes sense since GRRM has often mentioned that they were one of the big inspirations for the series. Specifically the game of thrones portion of the story.

With that in mind, can we read anything into Ser Loras' distribution of the roses? Historically speaking, the white rose was associated with the Yorks, the eventual losing side of the WotR. Loras gives the white roses to unnamed fair maidens in the crowd, but Sansa is special. She's the Hand's daughter, and this is the Tourney of the Hand, so she gets a red rose. That's the likely in-story explanation, at least, though it's never stated.

Historically, the red rose is associated with the Lancasters, and it was one of their claimants who eventually emerged victorious in the WotR. I'm left wondering exactly what GRRM is trying to tell us here. The red and white roses on Ser Loras' horse were not written that way by accident. I'm confident of that much.

Does it mean that Sansa, as many have theorized, will end up winning the game of thrones? That's one possible conclusion. But it would probably be a mistake to ignore the R+L=J hints we're getting around this WotR symbolism. Not that they necessarily preclude the Sansa wins! outcome, but their inclusion merits further thought and analysis.

After each victory, Ser Loras would remove his helm and ride slowly round the fence, and finally pluck a single white rose from the blanket and toss it to some fair maiden in the crowd.

[...]

To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. “Sweet lady,” he said, “no victory is half so beautiful as you.” Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry.

- Sansa, II

It could also be telling us that another civil war was about to begin. Symbolic markers, so to speak. Recall the last time a Stark maiden was given roses at a tournament. (The fact that history is repeating itself here really stands out as an obvious parallel between the two tournaments, to go along with some of the more subtle connections.)

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

- AGoT, Eddard XV

It wasn't long after that the rebellion began. So it seems like giving Stark girls roses at tournaments leads to bloody business. :)

A couple of points here. First, Sansa took the flower from Ser Loras. In my analysis of "the moment when all the smiles died" I noted that the crown was placed in Lyanna's lap, which I believe symbolizes the conception of Jon. There was some further discussion about whether it was proper, practical, or even possible for her to reach out and accept the laurel. I think in light of this Sansa comparison, my analysis holds up well; i.e., that GRRM deliberately wrote it so that Rhaegar placed the crown of roses in Lyanna's lap for the symbolic value.

Secondly, notice the colors of the flowers. There is somewhat of a red/blue dichotomy in the series. Red being partially associated with fire, and blue partially with ice, winter and snow. (...blue as frost.) I'm not entirely sure what to make of it at the moment, other than the usual associations with those colors.

---

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. - AGoT, Eddard I

[...]

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. - AGoT, Eddard X

The second quote almost surely tells us what color the roses in the first quote were when they were alive. At least, Ned associates blue rose petals with the ToJ, where he eventually saw the dead and black rose petals spill from Lyanna's hand. So, blue and black.

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa’s fervent whisper, “Oh, he’s so beautiful.” Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy’s shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

- AGoT, Eddard VII

Let's start with the second part first. Here, Ser Loras is wearing silver armor decorated with blue flowers, which actually turn out to be sapphires. The gem that just so happens to hint at secrets, lies and hidden identities. Convenient, eh? The coloring is curious when you think about it, since the Tyrell colors are gold and green. Why did GRRM decorate that character, the Knight of Flowers, in those colors?

The decision to use blue 'flowers' here, at a tourney, was no accident. I believe this was done with the intent of reminding the audience of the Tourney at Harrenhal and the crown of winter roses. In other words, it's yet another R+L=J allusion.

The phrase blue of the flowers is even reminiscent of Dany's vision from the HotU: A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness... Or perhaps it's the other way around. But, either way, there's something of a linguistic connection.

Now, back to the first part. Blue and black, intertwined. Which I think connects back to the roses at the ToJ, which were very likely blue before they were dead and black. "[T]iny blue forget-me-nots make for an interesting choice, I think, in light of these possible R+L=J hints and clues. What is it that Ned can't forget?

The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. - AGoT, Eddard I

[...]

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. - AGoT, Eddard II

[...]

That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them. - AGoT, Edddard IX

As I mentioned in my Emeralds thread, the color blue can be tied to Jon Snow symbolically via the blue roses, for starters. The sapphires which, again, hint at secrets and lies with a focus on identity. (That actually reads like a vague description of R+L=J.) Then we have the Blue Fork of the Trident, where it turns out that the sepulcher of Tristifer IV Mudd is a big R+L=J metaphor (Do yourself a favor and read that analysis if you haven't yet. It's really great. Credit to FrozenFire3, among others.). And, it was also the spot where Robb told Catelyn of his plan to legitimize Jon as a Stark and designate him as the heir to Winterfell, as well as the kingdoms of the North and Trident.

---

In further support of the flower-rose premise, here are a couple of examples of GRRM using the two words interchangeably.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden.

- AGoT, Eddard XV

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness… - ACoK, Daenerys IV

[the following Dany chapter]

“A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood… what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?” - Daenerys V

[Mimessa]

Talking about the "sons he wanted" could also just be any lord's wish to have a bunch of sons to carry on the family name.

[Ygrain]

On another note, I've speculated in the "how did Lyanna eat" thread :) that Rhaegar wasn't really trying to hide -- not at the beginning, not right after the kidnap >> that he was in fact at Summerhall (only avoiding court; not purposely hiding from Robert or Brandon, or any Starks >> that works if the kidnap was staged and Rickard aware)...

It is just on the edge on the dornish marches, so that a retreat to the toj makes sense when trouble started; especially considering the proximity of Storm's End. Further, we have heard from Davos that loyalist lords from the Stormlands meant to join forces at Summerhall but were crushed by Robert before they could (an indication that Rhaegar did try to rally lords before the rebellion got out of hand...and escaped through the red mountains?).

Summerhall is bound to Rhaegar. He was emotionally invested in it.... It seems a place he'd have wanted to share with Lyanna if she was important to him.

....the reason I speculated this is -- I've said it before and I'll keep saying it ;) -- that the toj, to me does not seem a good choice, or even a practical one for keeping a paramour or second wife over a long period of time... Rhaegar has traveled to summerhall often...and could have "nested" there, over the years...brought some supplies and what not; for longer stays... (he might even have envisioned to have the ruin rebuild, no?)

Plus it ties to Jon neatly...it was the seat of the second son; and there’s a dichotomy between Summer hall; and Winter fell, as there is between fire and ice...

(and the whole story of Summerhall...it was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not? Dany to Arstan... I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours the ghost of High heart to Arya... Did we learn nothing of Summerhall? No good has ever come of these dreams of dragons. Alester Florent to Davos.... I know the story of Summerhall of course, and why grief is associated to it...but, there could be another message there, as well, no? to me it seems a more logical place to go to since it is so intimately bound to Rhaegar...)

Agreed about Summerhall, it would be a romantic place to hang out at :-)

To tie in with another theory - if GoHH indeed haunted Summerhall from time to time, might it be that Lyanna also received some disturbing label and visions, like Arya did?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

Nicely done.

One way to read Sansa's red rose is that she ends up on the eventual winning side. Not necessarily that she herself wins, but it's an early allusion to victory where she's concerned (the red rose defeated the white). And Jon, as a Targaryen, would technically fall on the Lancaster end of things (the Yorks are the Baratheons).