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R+L=J v.83


Angalin

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I once suggested this and it kinda was directed into a "you hate Cat!" argument.



Whatever promised Ned did, if Lyanna asked for Jon to be well cared, well, Ned hasn't completely fulfil that. Ok, Jon is healthy, educated and his half-siblings love him, and many other things, but he's very miserable, not because of Cat but due to his own condition as a bastard. He joins the Wall because he feels he might never be happy with a woman and children and later, he realises he regrets to have taken that decision. All because he's posing as a bastard child, which he might not even actually be if his parents got married. Also, he thinks he was born out of dishonour and lust, when probably, his parents really loved each other.



I wonder if Ned ever wondered about asking Robert to legitimate Jon. Robert would, but maybe what stopped Ned was, what? to tell Jon who he really was? Did he promised that?


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I once suggested this and it kinda was directed into a "you hate Cat!" argument.

Whatever promised Ned did, if Lyanna asked for Jon to be well cared, well, Ned hasn't completely fulfil that. Ok, Jon is healthy, educated and his half-siblings love him, and many other things, but he's very miserable, not because of Cat but due to his own condition as a bastard. He joins the Wall because he feels he might never be happy with a woman and children and later, he realises he regrets to have taken that decision. All because he's posing as a bastard child, which he might not even actually be if his parents got married. Also, he thinks he was born out of dishonour and lust, when probably, his parents really loved each other.

I wonder if Ned ever wondered about asking Robert to legitimate Jon. Robert would, but maybe what stopped Ned was, what? to tell Jon who he really was? Did he promised that?

All depends on how far Ned would take the lie with Jon. He lets Jon believe that he is his father, probably one of Lyanna's asked for promises. Ned could use the same lie that Robert believes, Jon is the son of Wylla and Ned--what's one more lie, right? But that goes against Ned's honor. I always found it odd that Ned never tried to stop Jon from taking the black; once Jon is a sworn brother it doesn't matter who he was in his old life. He's a sword in the darkness now. It might have been a relief for Ned to have Jon at the Wall; his promise to tell Jon someday who he really is can be forgiven because Jon chose another path (though Jon's choices were limited because of Ned's choices to keep the truth from him, but that was out of fear mostly, I think...what would Robert do, I wonder, if it was revealed that Ned's bastard was really the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Robert *really* hates Targs)

So yes, I think Ned did promise to tell Jon someday, but when Jon makes the choice to take the black, Ned is almost absolved of that promise and I think decides it's a dishonor he can live with, as much as Ned Stark can live with dishonor

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All depends on how far Ned would take the lie with Jon. He lets Jon believe that he is his father, probably one of Lyanna's asked for promises. Ned could use the same lie that Robert believes, Jon is the son of Wylla and Ned--what's one more lie, right? But that goes against Ned's honor. I always found it odd that Ned never tried to stop Jon from taking the black; once Jon is a sworn brother it doesn't matter who he was in his old life. He's a sword in the darkness now. It might have been a relief for Ned to have Jon at the Wall; his promise to tell Jon someday who he really is can be forgiven because Jon chose another path (though Jon's choices were limited because of Ned's choices to keep the truth from him, but that was out of fear mostly, I think...what would Robert do, I wonder, if it was revealed that Ned's bastard was really the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Robert *really* hates Targs)

So yes, I think Ned did promise to tell Jon someday, but when Jon makes the choice to take the black, Ned is almost absolved of that promise and I think decides it's a dishonor he can live with, as much as Ned Stark can live without dishonor

Poor Ned...

Thinks Jon is safer at the Wall.

.

.

.

There is an invasion of Others coming down to Westeros.

Bad Luck Ned =(

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Poor Ned...

Thinks Jon is safer at the Wall.

.

.

.

There is an invasion of Others coming down to Westeros.

Bad Luck Ned =(

No, he is prophesied, he is destined, and he is part of the planned design of the great blue-eyed giant (GRRM, who has blue eyes). :)

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Wow! This thread has moved very fast! In no time at all, it will be in it's 84th version. Congratulations.

@J. Stargaryen I really enjoyed your piece on the roses and tourneys.

Kudos also to Liz Stargaryen for finding the de Montfort parallel.

I was put in mind of the Tudor rose. A red rose in the middle of the white. The unification of the divided Plantagenet line.

It's also very interesting, though it's such an obvious point that I'm sure its been discussed to death, that Henry VII was descended from the bastard and disinherited Lancaster line through his mother. Rather like fAegon. It was the marriage to Elizabeth of York that consolidated his claim to the throne. The interpretation of Sansa getting the red rose put it in mind. I don't know if it will actually mean anything later.

It's been noted that Rhaegar put the crown of winter roses in Lyanna's lap and, though I agree that it symbolises Jon's conception and birth, I wonder if the contrast with Sansa holds any meaning. Lyanna didn't reach out for the flowery crown which is why Rhaegar had to place it in her lap. Sansa, on the other hand, actually put out her hand for the rose.

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All depends on how far Ned would take the lie with Jon. He lets Jon believe that he is his father, probably one of Lyanna's asked for promises. Ned could use the same lie that Robert believes, Jon is the son of Wylla and Ned--what's one more lie, right? But that goes against Ned's honor. I always found it odd that Ned never tried to stop Jon from taking the black; once Jon is a sworn brother it doesn't matter who he was in his old life. He's a sword in the darkness now. It might have been a relief for Ned to have Jon at the Wall; his promise to tell Jon someday who he really is can be forgiven because Jon chose another path (though Jon's choices were limited because of Ned's choices to keep the truth from him, but that was out of fear mostly, I think...what would Robert do, I wonder, if it was revealed that Ned's bastard was really the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Robert *really* hates Targs)

So yes, I think Ned did promise to tell Jon someday, but when Jon makes the choice to take the black, Ned is almost absolved of that promise and I think decides it's a dishonor he can live with, as much as Ned Stark can live with dishonor

He would take it pretty far out of necessity. Keep in mind that Robert hating Targaryens would not be the only threat to Jon. We know Aemon went to the wall to avoid people trying to use him in plots to take the throne. Jon would be subject to the same thing. As for asking Robert to legitimze Jon, Cat would be the problem there because that would put him ahead of most of her children for inheritance.

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He would take it pretty far out of necessity. Keep in mind that Robert hating Targaryens would not be the only threat to Jon. We know Aemon went to the wall to avoid people trying to use him in plots to take the throne. Jon would be subject to the same thing. As for asking Robert to legitimze Jon, Cat would be the problem there because that would put him ahead of most of her children for inheritance.

Isn't the place in inheritance of a legitimized bastard determined by the Lord making the request?

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Isn't the place in inheritance of a legitimized bastard determined by the Lord making the request?

That's a good question. I really don't know that it has been covered. I know that a Lord or king can name their heir but I have assumed that a legitimized bastard would fall in according to age. The most we really know about it is probably from the Blackfyre rebellion. I don't think that the respective ages of those involved has been discussed though.

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That's a good question. I really don't know that it has been covered. I know that a Lord or king can name their heir but I have assumed that a legitimized bastard would fall in according to age. The most we really know about it is probably from the Blackfyre rebellion. I don't think that the respective ages of those involved has been discussed though.

Edric Storm is older than Joffery, isn't he? And Robert claimed Edric because the mother was a virigin and so there was no question of paternity.

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Can't wait, Lady G! :wideeyed:

And Yolkboy, with his sexy accent... :lol:

Lady G also has a sexy voice, (and I say that in a completely non-stalking, casual-observation-sort-of-way... :D :D :D).

Awww, you guys... :blush: :blush:

Can't wait for you to hear the whole thing! And of course very soon we plan to offer an EXTREMELY special episode on a subject near and dear to our hearts ;)

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Edric Storm is older than Joffery, isn't he? And Robert claimed Edric because the mother was a virigin and so there was no question of paternity.

Actually Edric is younger than Joffrey. He was conceived on Stannis' wedding night, and according to the appendix of AFfC he is 12 years old (that is probably 2 years younger than Joff)

He was acknowledged because his mother Delena Florent was nobly born.

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Robert acknowledged Edric, he never legitimized him.

Actually Edric is younger than Joffrey. He was conceived on Stannis' wedding night, and according to the appendix of AFfC he is 12 years old (that is probably 2 years younger than Joff)

He was acknowledged because his mother Delena Florent was nobly born.

Thanks. :)

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Lady Gwyn and Yolkboy,



Good luck with your endeavour. Listened to the teaser and looking forward to more. And YES, Lady Gwyn does have a sexy voice. :leer: As for Yolkboy's voice...Erm... I'm gonna have to plead the fifth on that one. :laugh:


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