R+L=J v.83

[BearQueen87]

Yeah I would be very interested to know how the last conversation went between Rhaegar and Aerys. LIke what kind of relationship did they have towards the end. Did Aerys really want his son and grandchildren to die? Was he just so far past Go that he completely had lost all sense of continuing his bloodline or caring at all about his family? Could anyone have talked sense into him at that point?

I would be interested in that final conversation as well. But I think Aerys might have been past the point of no return. Those final acts that we know about--raping and savaging his wife, the Brandon and Lord Stark incidient, wanting to burn all the people of KL's, keeping Elia and her children in the Red Keep in order to keep Dorne on his side--to me show that he was just utterly mad and without reason. He may not have wanted his family to actually die (I have no dobut that if he really wanted them dead, he'd just kill them), but I don't think he was really thinking about their safety and wellbeing either.

[The other prince]

I would be interested in that final conversation as well. But I think Aerys might have been past the point of no return. Those final acts that we know about--raping and savaging his wife, the Brandon and Lord Stark incidient, wanting to burn all the people of KL's, keeping Elia and her children in the Red Keep in order to keep Dorne on his side--to me show that he was just utterly mad and without reason. He may not have wanted his family to actually die (I have no dobut that if he really wanted them dead, he'd just kill them), but I don't think he was really thinking about their safety and wellbeing either.

I agree, way past the point of no return. We can gather that the final conversation between the two probably didn't go well. Right before he leaves for the Trident he tells Jaime he will call a council and make changes and he should have done it before. So I think that something during that conversation finally ttold Rhaegar that it had went way too far.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

..keeping Elia and her children in the Red Keep in order to keep Dorne on his side--to me show that he was just utterly mad and without reason...

This was ultimately cruel, but wasn't utterly mad and without reason. The other examples were pretty batshit crazy though

[BearQueen87]

The final conversation between father and son probably only solidified Aerys's paranoia. If your eldest son, your heir, is perceived to be turning on you and you're already over the cliff of insanity, then thinking that you're about to be deposed by your son isn't going to help. And I think in Rhaegar's mind, this final conversation might solidify his notion that he was ultimately doing the right thing.

This was ultimately cruel, but wasn't utterly mad and without reason. The other examples were pretty batshit crazy though

Yeah I thew in Elia and her children because it's cruel in the end, but Aerys did have somewhat logical reasoning behind it. All in all though, pretty batshit crazy :)

[Prince of the North]

Yes, I think Aerys was past the point of no return. It was the ultimate "if I can't have it, no one will" attitude. He had made up his mind that should he lose then the victors "could rule over ashes" and I doubt he really cared who of his family lived or died at that point. In fact, I think Aerys would have been doing a great impression of Nero if his plan to burn Kings Landing had come to fruition.

[The other prince]

The final conversation between father and son probably only solidified Aerys's paranoia. If your eldest son, your heir, is perceived to be turning on you and you're already over the cliff of insanity, then thinking that you're about to be deposed by your son isn't going to help. And I think in Rhaegar's mind, this final conversation might solidify his notion that he was ultimately doing the right thing.

Yeah I thew in Elia and her children because it's cruel in the end, but Aerys did have somewhat logical reasoning behind it. All in all though, pretty batshit crazy :)

Actually keeping Elia there made perfect sense and Aerys had nothing to do with what happened to them. It even made sense to keep Jaime there as leverage against Tywin. He was cruel, paranoid and sadistic and would almost certainly be considered criminally insane. I'm not sure he could be considered batshit crazy though.

[BearQueen87]

Yes, I think Aerys was past the point of no return. It was the ultimate "if I can't have it, no one will" attitude. He had made up his mind that should he lose then the victors "could rule over ashes" and I doubt he really cared who of his family lived or died at that point. In fact, I think Aerys would have been doing a great impression of Nero if his plan to burn Kings Landing had come to fruition.

He would totally be up on a roof somewhere singing a little song before swan diving into the flames.

Actually keeping Elia there made perfect sense and Aerys had nothing to do with what happened to them. It even made sense to keep Jaime there as leverage against Tywin. He was cruel, paranoid and sadistic and would almost certainly be considered criminally insane. I'm not sure he could be considered batshit crazy though.

Just ouf of curosity but what's the difference? How many of those cruel, paranoid and sadistic acts must you peform before you go from criminally insane to batshit crazy? Is having one or two somewhat logical ideas enough to keep you from being classified as "batshit" I think wanting to burn all of KL to let Robert be king of ashes and letting some half million people die is beyond sadistic and cruel.

[Ser Creighton]

:lmao:

... yes, it will be a lot like that. And trust me, I look just like Dwight :rolleyes:

Sorry, no Southie accent. More Back Bay-ish, smoothed out by the hills of Worcester county. Maybe one day I'll do a bit of Southie in the show as a nod, but only if yolkboy will do cockney ;)

Thanks for the luck!

Well you know there is something about Dwight, all those beets, kind of hot and sexy, and that hair. Man that's hot. Though seriously if you and and Yolk had your accents reversed that would be hysterical.. Nobody would know what you are saying but still funny as hell. You with a southie accent and Yolk with his southern UK accent reversed to a North English Manchester accent. Manchester is literally southies UK parallel. They belong together.

I better stop with the off topic stuff, but man now I have a dream at least, Southie meets Manchester, if I could just hear that conversation like that, my world would be complete. It's the Romeo and Juliet of all accent pairings. Star crossed accents.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Could either Rhaegar or Jon have done much differently?

Rhaegar was committing some kind of treason, taking his father's place, and Jon was faced with narrow-minded subordinates who would gladly see 100,000 people die.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Could either Rhaegar or Jon have done much differently?

Rhaegar was committing some kind of treason, taking his father's place, and Jon was faced with narrow-minded subordinates who would gladly see 100,000 people die.

NO they couldnt have, they both did the right thing. Most people cannot accept the right thing and there are consequences when trying to bring about change as they both were attempting......Big Change.

[Alia of the knife]

I haven't watched this season yet. My wife is a big show fan and I usually record the entire season first before we watch it. Could you elaborate on this show hint? I don't mind spoilers. :)

I am still highly skeptical that Aemon knew Jon's true lineage.

There was a point in the scene with Aemon and Sam, when Aemon came upon Sam in the library and he knew who it was, and why he was there, re-enforcing the theme that those who are physically blind may "see" more than those who are sighted.

As I speculated before, Benjen arrived not long after the rebellion was over, his own sister having been in Rhaegars company. I can't imagine that Aemon wouldn't have had some questions,or suspicions, even if he didn't ask him, but kept everything to himself.

I would also say that while Aemon speaks of tPtwP, he may be speaking specifically of a Valaryan prophesy that is Targaryen-centric and has nothing to do with Mel's Ahor Azai, especially given that Aemon never mentions Azor Ahai, (the two seem to get conflated), so in mentioning Dany in one capacity, does not necessarily negate Jons destiny and identity as something else.

"It is not known from where the prophecy originates, as information on the prince that was promised is scant. Based on the fact that Maester Aemon mentions “a thousand years”[1] to Samwell Tarly it should be safe to say the prince that was promised prophecy is at least 1,000 years old. According to Melisandre the prince that was promised coming was prophesied 5,000 years ago.[2] She does not mention who made the prophecy.

Melisandre has mentioned the prince that was promised[2] and Azor Ahai interchangeably but she tends to use the name Azor Ahai far more often. Aemon only mentions the prince that was promised, never the name Azor Ahai.

It appears as if the Targaryen family had been awaiting the arrival of the prince so the prophecy may come from Old Valyria, but that is conjecture. There is not as much clear information on the prince as, for example, Azor Ahai. "- Wiki

Bringing back the dragons to fight the Others is an assumption I think, given that we don't know yet what powerful magic Winter might bring that the dragons might actually be ineffectual against, and may have been beneficial only to the Targaryens to reassert their waning power. It should also be remembered that the dragons can kill humans as much as they can kill the Others, reaping as much havoc and destruction on civilization as the Others.

So, "saving the world" from the Targaryen POV, might actually mean saving themselves, which should not necessarily be construed as a bad or selfish thing either.

"Fire and blood" is as much a warning as "Winter is coming," I think.

And while it is a good point that Aemon might have mentioned something in his ravings if he knew something about Jon, the reality, (and tragedy of dementia), is that one will forget much of what they knew, their memories hovering somewhere between past and present was the case with my friends great grandmother who died at the age of 93, thinking she was sixteen again, remembering everything about her first dance, but nothing of what happened that morning.

And if Benjen had any part in the liaison between Rhaegar and Lyanna, then his coming to the Wall, even if it had been his inclination, I would think that Aemon might have had some questions.

[Ser Creighton]

Could either Rhaegar or Jon have done much differently?

Rhaegar was committing some kind of treason, taking his father's place, and Jon was faced with narrow-minded subordinates who would gladly see 100,000 people die.

I never look at it that way it's like second guessing yourself. Everything is easer in hindsight, but it's all cause and effect, you change what they did and you have to figure out what everyone else would do and nobody has all the information on what everyone was thinking at the time.

Though 100,000 I think is an over estimate. A large amount of Wildlings died both during the battle and after. Now if you reread the arrival of Tormund you get a pretty good idea of what Jon is thinking, and while some things are said about it a lot of them are made up by fans.

Jon still considered the Wildlings his enemy and he had major concerns about what he was doing. Which if some people can't understand that, no need to waste time with them.

Martin makes a point to show that both the Wildlings and Jon have blood on their hands. He actually states it in text, and that's fine they both do. What Jon did was wrong, and what Mance and the wildlings did was wrong. There exist extenuating circumstances which I feel many people ignore on this forum in favor of black and white analysis, but they exist and Martin makes a point to show that.

With Tormunds arrival with around 5000 wildlings, Martin decides to subvert imagery in order to relay a message to the reader.

Tormund and Jon meet, Tormund vents. You know I actually wrote an entire long post analysis of the chapter in which Jon sends out Val and the chapter where Val returns and the importance of the imagery Martin attempts to invoke and relay to the reader. But I will summarize it as best I can.

I'll start with Martins use of subversion, which he loves to do and in this case he subverts a wedding to create imagery with a duel purpose.

Tormund and Jon are right next to each other and there are a line of wildlings paying with items to get past the wall. It's a subversion of gift giving. Tormund hands Jon two Gold bands then invoke the word ring. That imagery should be self explanatory. Val appears with Ghost standing next to her and Ghost is refered to as being borrowed in a way. Val is dressed all in a beautiful white outfit, and Ghost escorts her to Jon. Martin also invokes the 4 traditions. Something Old, Val's weirwood pin with a face on it, the Old gods. Something new, her new outfit. Something borrowed, Ghost (who Jon asks for back), Something blue, he describes the wall as a beautiful blue. There are two things at play here, the imagery of Jon and Val getting married, it's not a real marriage, but it's done for the symbolism and the idea. The Other is the union between Wildling and Watch. There is a ton of symbolism involved in those two chapters. He invokes the imagery of Dragons and the Others, the wedding, he subverts Azor Ahai. The to chapters are a must read and I think people should take a really close look at Martins history of subverting not only classical tropes but his own history in the books. The Light King and the Night King, the Princess in the tower, Serwyn and the rescuing of a fair maid. Which ties into another theory I wrote. The subversion of the Rat Cook, the subversion of the Prince that was promised. He does not repeat the history of Westeros he has created but rather subverts it and the mythology within.

Anyway, there is a point between Jon and Bowen where Bowen actually basically says I get it. He may be conflicted but he basically states the enemy of my enemy is my friend. There are other things that upset Marsh but the Wildlings were not exactly that. Food shortage, to many women and children, getting involved with Stannis and the south. But the Wildlings is actually a pretty decent move, conflicting? Yes they had just fought, but understandable.

Rhaegar is a little different because we know next to nothing, so either way when we or anyone fill in the blanks no matter how right we think we are, we still don't have the facts and really just using educated supposition. In many cases unexplained supposition, and leaps of faith, want or hope.

I don't know if that is exactly what you wanted, but I tried to stay in the ballpark because I know I don't have the answers but I can analyze imagery, the author is not putting it there because he is bored.

[Alia of the knife]

Does anyone think it's ironic that the Snow Queen from "Frozen" looks like this?

http://th08.deviantart.net/fs71/200H/i/2013/356/e/a/elsa___frozen__the_snow_queen_by_daviddimitridolce-d6yvvio.jpg

[corbon]

(Beyond that - please do know that I've been reading as much as I can from the forums/Citadel/Tower of Hand. I do NOT take GRRM's SSM as "truths" though, which I find others seem to lean on. Safety in the masses to accept his comments' as truths. If he has to lie to his readers for the good of preserving the mysteries of his story... he should.

If you actually follow any of them you will quickly come to the understanding that he is very good at hiding his story without lying.

As you would expect once you've read the Robert/Ned interaction when discussing Jon's mother.

[The other prince]

He would totally be up on a roof somewhere singing a little song before swan diving into the flames.

Just ouf of curosity but what's the difference? How many of those cruel, paranoid and sadistic acts must you peform before you go from criminally insane to batshit crazy? Is having one or two somewhat logical ideas enough to keep you from being classified as "batshit" I think wanting to burn all of KL to let Robert be king of ashes and letting some half million people die is beyond sadistic and cruel.

It would likely have been easier for Rhaegar to do something about Aery's had the perception of Aery's was that he had lost touch with reality and was completely incapable of making any leadership decisions. That doesn't seem to be the case. Aery's actions while horrible are commited with full knowledge of exactly what he was doing. Even wanting to burn KL to the ground is done with understanding. He fully knows that if he does this he is going to kill everyone, and in fact that is exactly what he wants.

So in answer to your question, in the end not much difference at all. You are correct. I just think it would have been easier to do something about him had he been completley out of touch with reality. Now at the very end he may have been just that (jaime seems to think he believed the fire would not kill him). Prior to that not as much.

[IceFire125]

OMG....LOL!! Kit STOP! you're ruining GRRM's epic mysteries. :drunk: :drunk:

“I’d want Viserion. No, wait — I’d have Rhaegal. He’s the green one. I’d have the green one. He just kind of takes my fancy. Certainly, Jon Snow should have a black one. That would suit him best, because he’s from the Night’s Watch, but I guess I’ll let Dany keep him. That’s her baby.”

He assumes Jon Snow would be very practical with any dragon he might acquire — “take it to the Wall, use it as a tool to fight the White Walkers, help make a bunch of dragonglass.” (it is known, Jon will have his dragon, spoilers TWOW)

But Harington wouldn’t use a dragon as a tool or a weapon. “I have no desire to go and conquer other people,” he said. (it is known, Jon will refuse the Iron Throne, spoilers ADOS)

“I’m quite happy to just try and sort out who I am first.” (it is known, R+L=J, spoilers ADOS)

His idea of how to have fun with a dragon would be to have a big enough place where you could just keep your dragon pal in the garden. And then you could tell your human pals, “Hey, do you want to come see my dragon?” “That’s what I’d do,” he laughed. “Frisk around with it in the garden for a while.”

For his own sake, Harington would prefer not to have a baby dragon — no raising dragons for him. “I’d have a dragon exactly my own age, 27,” he said. “Just like in How to Train Your Dragon, when Hiccup finds out Toothless is exactly his own age. That’s why they bonded so well! So we’d have that.” Bonus when it’s already an adult — no messy dragon diaper stage. (it is known, ice/stone/Sheepstealer/Cannibal is Jon's dragon, spoilers TWOW)

http://www.vulture.com/2014/06/kit-harington-wants-a-dragon.html?mid=twitter_vulture

**my added annotations are of my own for kicks, giggles and fun

[BearQueen87]

Until I saw your annotation note I thought the whole thing was legit and was having spasms

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

IceFire, that's a good one! Thanks for the link. Kit is such an unapologetic ASoIaF fanboy! I know some pre-GoT Book Walkers don't like his take on Jon Snow, but millions of us read the series after being Unsullied TV viewers. For me, Kit is the Jon in my head.

I've only been on the forums a week and I'm totally convinced that Jon is a Targ. Starting my first re-read of the series this summer and clues are leaping out every time I read Ned's POV in AGoT. If GRRM doesn't confirm R+L=J, and Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara/Wylla/fishergirl, or just two random people, I think I'll feel totally trolled.

And I'm definitely not the only one. Bet Kit can't wait to act out the ultimate "Jon Snow, I am your father" Star Wars-esque reveal scene. (George, please write faster!)

[UnmaskedLurker]

IceFire, that's a good one! Thanks for the link. Kit is such an unapologetic ASoIaF fanboy! I know some pre-GoT Book Walkers don't like his take on Jon Snow, but millions of us read the series after being Unsullied TV viewers. For me, Kit is the Jon in my head.

I've only been on the forums a week and I'm totally convinced that Jon is a Targ. Starting my first re-read of the series this summer and clues are leaping out every time I read Ned's POV in AGoT. If GRRM doesn't confirm R+L=J, and Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara/Wylla/fishergirl, or just two random people, I think I'll feel totally trolled.

And I'm definitely not the only one. Bet Kit can't wait to act out the ultimate "Jon Snow, I am your father" Star Wars-esque reveal scene. (George, please write faster!)

Kit will be doing that scene long before GRRM writes it. The show will pass up the books in the 6th or 7th season of the series.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Kit will be doing that scene long before GRRM writes it. The show will pass up the books in the 6th or 7th season of the series.

Sigh. Yes, I know... and I'm quite sad about it, now that I'm a lofty Book Walker! Fingers crossed that we get TWoW in time for Christmas 2015 at the very latest.

Although IF we get to the end of Season 5 and George is not done with TWoW yet, my vote is for a season heavy in flashbacks. This would slow down the TV show a bit so that the books could catch up. In order of preference: 1) Year of the False Spring and RR/WoTU, 2) The original Dance of the Dragons, and 3) the Dunk and Egg tales.

I think #1 is a great way to stall and buy a little time. Unlike #2 and #3, which could be independent series, #1 is the backstory for everything casual GoT viewers are invested in already. They could keep some of the cast the same for continuity and reader interest -- Charles Dance is the only choice for Tywin, even though he'd technically be far too old to play him during the late reign of Aerys. You could also go back and forth in time, so that actors currently contracted could still work.

By the way, I know this is not the TV thread, but my vote for Lyanna is Tatiana Maslany if she could manage it with her Orphan Black commitments. The woman is perhaps the best young actress of her generation, and she would knock the role out of the ballpark. She could certainly play both of Lyanna's sides: the She-Wolf and the Winter Rose.

The only challenge to having key flashbacks is that the entire book series would need to done or all the TV viewers would end up spoiled. Because the second the TV series flashes back to Harrenhal, and Lyanna starts weeping over dragonsong, and that crown of blue roses lands on her lap, you'll have millions of TV viewers suddenly speccing R+L=J. I remember the screams on Twitter from book readers when the Oathkeeper ep gave us that glimpse in the LoAW, so I can't imagine what would happen if we get confirmation on the show and not in the books. GRRM's racing against the clock.