R+L=J v.83

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Wow, a staged abduction? That would perfectly explain Rickard's lack of response (as has already been speculated)

As for another historical parallel, John Lackland and Isabela of Angouleme :-)

That's what I'm saying. All the eyes would be on Rhaegar stealing a girl, not on Rhaegar trying to take down his father!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Very true. Since GRRM is drawing on medieval history, I wonder if we'll find out the real R+L situation was something like Simon de Montfort's supposed "abduction" of Eleanor Plantagenet (Henry III's younger sister) in the mid-13th century. De Montfort had the king's tacit consent to the marriage but the barons knew nothing about it and were furious. So was the king's brother. It was a mess of communication but it's one of my favorite tangled historical chapters from the Middle Ages.

Things turned out fine for Simon, at least in the short term, and he was able to pacify the prince and the barons, but IIRC, Edward I eventually killed him. I could see GRRM asking "well, what if things hadn't gone well, and everyone assumed Simon abducted/raped Eleanor?" I don't know if there's a parallel during the Wars of the Roses, but as I told my best guy friend who's been reading ASoIaF since the 90s, R+L seems so much like a Simon and Eleanor situation gone bad.

Maybe Rhaegar had the tacit consent of Rickard to take Lyanna, but without Rickard's expressed "knowledge" of it. This way, House Stark wouldn't grievously offend House Baratheon... the older LP was dead, Robert was still relatively young, and once Lyanna's elopement was a fait accompli, perhaps they figured Robert would move on to another suitable LP's daughter. Perhaps even Cersei Lannister, who was beautiful and from the House of the King's Hand. If Lyanna knew about Robert's wenching, I'm sure Lord Stark and the Prince knew of it, too. It may have been common knowledge.

Which leads me to wonder if Rhaegar and/or Lyanna tried to leave word, but somehow it was intercepted because of one of the theories. I think I've read that on an earlier thread, but can't recall what the answer was. But I think it's telling that it wasn't Lord Stark who was the first to protest, but his heir Brandon, who may not have had all the information. Some key incident happened that led Rhaegar to speed up the timeline.

There's no way of knowing until or unless GRRM does his big reveal. But I am starting to believe that R+L is something that Princess Elia and Lord Rickard knew about and consented to -- Elia because of the prophecy (especially because of Dany's dream in the House of the Undying), and Rickard because it was a better match than a Baratheon one. I agree with those who say it's interesting that all of a sudden, after many years of preserving the bloodlines of the First Men, Rickard began matching his kids up with LPs in the South.

Putting his daughter on the throne (Targaryen) trumped making her the lady of a powerful Southern house related to the throne (Baratheon). Because at first, I was making the assumption that Rickard was a lot like Ned in personality, so he'd never go for his only daughter becoming a second wife in some weird polygamous situation. However, we don't really know what Rickard was thinking. If Rickard did want the throne, I could see him thinking it would even be justice -- his ancestor Torrhen Stark bent the knee, but one of his grandchildren might sit on the Iron Throne, and another might reign as King in the North. (The hilarious thing is that one or more of his grandchildren might do just that!)

But even then, Rickard must have known that Aegon was still heir to the throne, not any son Rhaegar would have by Lyanna. Or are you suggesting a daughter of Rhaegar´s and Lyanna marrying Aegon, leading to a grandchild of Rickards to sit the throne (if Rickard and Rhaegar truly had been planning, and all their plans had worked out the way they wanted them to).?

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Wow, a staged abduction? That would perfectly explain Rickard's lack of response (as has already been speculated)

As for another historical parallel, John Lackland and Isabela of Angouleme :-)

Yes! King Henry III and Princess Eleanor of England's parents... :)

I've loved the Robin Hood legends since childhood, so I've been voraciously reading stories about the early Plantagenets since my teens. One of my cousins who's doing extensive genealogical research recently learned that we're likely descended from them (as are millions of others around the world, I'm sure!), so it seems fitting. (I've been trying to search for Eleanor of Aquitaine's ASoIaF equivalent all spring!) Anyway, I digress...

The more I read the threads about Rhaegar and Lyanna, the more familiar the skeleton of the story seems. In our history, Simon de Plantagenet and Eleanor of England had to marry in secret. Eleanor had sworn a vow of perpetual chastity after the death of her first (probably unconsummated) marriage as a child to the Lord Marshal of England. Simon and Eleanor got permission to marry from the king, but I'm not even sure if it was written. I think they just had his word.

Of course neither Prince Richard nor the barons consented to this. The king's sister marrying the most powerful baron in England at the time precipitated a political crisis. The only way they calmed things down was to 1) pay off the King's younger brother and 2) to get a papal dispensation for the marriage.

I am not sure that either option was available to Rhaegar or Rickard. I doubt the Baratheons or the Martells wanted or needed a financial payoff that the Targaryen crown may not have had, and there's no way the Faith of the Seven was going to cheer for a sudden return to polygamy. So it's already an impossible situation.

Also, Simon almost married a powerful French countess, Joan of Flanders, before coming to England. I can almost hear an author thinking "what if my character went through with that marriage?" To me, that echoes the marriage of Rhaegar and Elia. The fictional Elia and the real-world Joan both had royal blood as a bonus, and were from extremely powerful regions that were autonomous in their own right.

Just like a potential fictional Stark/Targaryen match, the real-world Plantagenet/de Montfort marriage was mutually beneficial for all parties... at first. The Plantagenets got the support of a powerful rich baron and a potential threat to Henry III's reign, and de Montfort got to father sons with royal Plantagenet blood off Eleanor. The ASoIaF motivations for the secret marriage are the same, only GRRM switched the royal with the baron. Rickard = Henry III; Rhaegar = Simon de Montfort. Simon de Montfort was a reformer and and idealist, much like Rhaegar might have been if he'd lived.

Another similarity is that Simon was defeated and killed, just as Rhaegar was, in a massive rebellion of the nobility. Once again, the players are reversed. In the real world, the rebellious lord (Simon) was defeated by the royal family (Prince Edward, Henry III's son). In ASoIaF, the royal (Rhaegar) was defeated by the rebellious lord (Robert). So the world of RR is a world where the rebel usurped the Plantagenet dynasty and became king.

Of course, nothing maps out as a perfect parallel here. The genius of GRRM is that he's not rewriting history or adhering to a checklist of traditional high fantasy conventions, but subverting things in interesting ways. But as I read, something about the entire Tourney of Harrenhal, Year of the False Spring, and the lead up to Robert's Rebellion felt Robin Hood-esque, as if centuries in the future, the legends of the series characters we're reading would be forged into a similar narrative. (Since the series was inspired by the Wars of the Roses, I have no idea why!)

But even then, Rickard must have known that Aegon was still heir to the throne, not any son Rhaegar would have by Lyanna. Or are you suggesting a daughter of Rhaegar´s and Lyanna marrying Aegon, leading to a grandchild of Rickards to sit the throne (if Rickard and Rhaegar truly had been planning, and all their plans had worked out the way they wanted them to).?

You know, I thought about that after I posted. Aegon had just been born. I can't see Rickard consenting to polygamy AND incest, let alone some airy-fairy prophecy. His only daughter becoming a second wife is already a stretch, but it's probably because his son's honor, virtue, and traditional values have been drummed into readers.

However, we really don't know much about Rickard, other than he raised Ned, the most honorable guy in the series. Hmmm. It is indeed a puzzle...

Unless... Rhaegar and Rickard struck a deal before Elia's pregnancy was confirmed. They correspond or otherwise talk right after Harrenhal, there's some weird deal struck, Elia announces the pregnancy. Deal is off.

Then Aegon is born, Elia can't have any more kids, but the dragon must have three heads. That might explain the year as well as the mix-up in communication.

I'd also love to know if the Crown Prince and the Lord of the North were talking at all, whether or not (and if) Lyanna was given details at every stage. Since this is Westeros? I'm guessing not.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

People, you are putting too much stock in "Rickard conspired with Rhaegar" just to absolve Rhaegar of any blame he shares with Aerys & Brandon for the shit storm that followed lyanna's disappearance. That too without any indication in text. I mean his "southron ambitions" at least have one character saying he had southron ambitions. And how do you explain his decision to bethrot lyanna & within one year changing his plans so secretly that he couldnt tell his heir?

[Mdoggy]

That's what I'm saying. All the eyes would be on Rhaegar stealing a girl, not on Rhaegar trying to take down his father!

GENIUS!

I have always thought R+L was completely out of character for both parties. R is logical and a pretty decent guy who is fond of his wife (not in love but fond) and Lyanna was a wild girl who did not need a Man to protect her. Lyanna did not like robert partly because of him sleeping around so why would she be the Prince's mistress??? and why would the hounorable rheagar kidnapp a betrothed woman? (if he wanted another wife, he could have just taken Cerseri, she was single and wanted to marry him)

Their running away is defiantly fishy and probably a ploy to bring down R's father? What better agent than a wild girl who can take care of herself? If she gets herself in any trouble she they can go "oh thats just Lyanna, isnt she crazy?". Or maybe Lyanna heard something she wasnt suposed to....

I Rickard, Jon, Hoster, Tywin and Rheagar were plotting something and i think that Lyanna could have been drawn into it somehow...

Things might have gone according to plan but Brandon wasnt aware of the true plan so he messed everything up. (note how Rickard went after Brandon but not Lyanna and Jon only raised his banners after Rickard was killed)

There is something fishy going on here and i dont think it was true love...

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

The only problem is that we have people who were close to Rhaegar during his lifetime telling our POV characters (and the reader) that he loved Lyanna. Are they just romanticizing a bad situation?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

People, you are putting too much stock in "Rickard conspired with Rhaegar" just to absolve Rhaegar of any blame he shares with Aerys & Brandon for the shit storm that followed lyanna's disappearance. That too without any indication in text. I mean his "southron ambitions" at least have one character saying he had southron ambitions. And how do you explain his decision to bethrot lyanna & within one year changing his plans so secretly that he couldnt tell his heir?

If they conspired together, they're equally to blame too.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The only problem is that we have people who were close to Rhaegar during his lifetime telling our POV characters (and the reader) that he loved Lyanna. Are they just romanticizing a bad situation?

He could have ended up loving her like Jon ended up loving Ygritte.

[Mdoggy]

Barristan probably did not know because he was part of the Kingsguard. Same thing with Jamie. Ned was a little older than a kid so i doubt he was told until after the fact.

Jon Connington is the only puzzle imo. He was pretty good friends with Rheagar but I dont think there would be any reason to tell him about proposed treason that would make Rheagar King instead of Areys.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

People, you are putting too much stock in "Rickard conspired with Rhaegar" just to absolve Rhaegar of any blame he shares with Aerys & Brandon for the shit storm that followed lyanna's disappearance. That too without any indication in text. I mean his "southron ambitions" at least have one character saying he had southron ambitions. And how do you explain his decision to bethrot lyanna & within one year changing his plans so secretly that he couldnt tell his heir?

You're right about the bolded. We have no idea about what happened during the year between the Tourney and Lyanna's disappearance.

Maybe "The Year of False Spring" is the key. The weather grew warm enough to have a tourney, but before anything else could happen, the weather got cold again, making travel and/or communication more difficult, especially to points North.

I can't see R+L as some grand fairy tale romance. The outcome has been too grisly for that. But on her side, I do think that she ultimately consented, and on his, I think the prophecy was one of his motivations, not the sole one.

I know my theories are all likely either crackpot or have been brought up and hashed over thousands of times. (That's what I get for not starting AGoT when my friend told me to 12 years ago...) Thanks for indulging this n00b, and I'll go back to reading/lurking/learning.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The only problem is that we have people who were close to Rhaegar during his lifetime telling our POV characters (and the reader) that he loved Lyanna. Are they just romanticizing a bad situation?

Well, Barristan has been saying that, and during the year Lyanna was missing, Rhaegar was gone for a big part too. And I somehow did not get the feeling that Rhaegar and Barristan ever sat down to discuss whether or not he was in love with Lyanna :P I think Barristans account is his own interpretation of Rhaegars actions and the "why" of it all, based on what he knew about the character of the prince.

As to Rickard, I am really hoping that the World Book will give some information about the guy. Certaily, from a maesters POV, we should always keep wondering what truly went on, but stating some facts on Rickard might help getting a better picture of what was going on in Rickards head.

Sincerely hoping to get at least a reason as to why Rickard and Hoster weren't at the Tourney at Harrenhal.

As to the incest: That is something you face when marrying your family into the Targaryens. I doubt the Martells ever married one of their sons to their daughters, yet Myriah Martell's son and daughter were married (Aerys and Aelinor).

[Ser Leftwich]

Maybe "The Year of False Spring" is the key. The weather grew warm enough to have a tourney, but before anything else could happen, the weather got cold again, making travel and/or communication more difficult, especially to points North.

This is a good angle. The snows return, Rickard sends word from Winterfell that Lyanna should stay somewhere below the Neck and not hazard traveling all the way back North.

[Alia of the knife]

Yes! King Henry III and Princess Eleanor of England's parents... :)

I've loved the Robin Hood legends since childhood, so I've been voraciously reading stories about the early Plantagenets since my teens. One of my cousins who's doing extensive genealogical research recently learned that we're likely descended from them (as are millions of others around the world, I'm sure!), so it seems fitting. (I've been trying to search for Eleanor of Aquitaine's ASoIaF equivalent all spring!) Anyway, I digress...

The more I read the threads about Rhaegar and Lyanna, the more familiar the skeleton of the story seems. In our history, Simon de Plantagenet and Eleanor of England had to marry in secret. Eleanor had sworn a vow of perpetual chastity after the death of her first (probably unconsummated) marriage as a child to the Lord Marshal of England. Simon and Eleanor got permission to marry from the king, but I'm not even sure if it was written. I think they just had his word.

Of course neither Prince Richard nor the barons consented to this. The king's sister marrying the most powerful baron in England at the time precipitated a political crisis. The only way they calmed things down was to 1) pay off the King's younger brother and 2) to get a papal dispensation for the marriage.

I am not sure that either option was available to Rhaegar or Rickard. I doubt the Baratheons or the Martells wanted or needed a financial payoff that the Targaryen crown may not have had, and there's no way the Faith of the Seven was going to cheer for a sudden return to polygamy. So it's already an impossible situation.

Also, Simon almost married a powerful French countess, Joan of Flanders, before coming to England. I can almost hear an author thinking "what if my character went through with that marriage?" To me, that echoes the marriage of Rhaegar and Elia. The fictional Elia and the real-world Joan both had royal blood as a bonus, and were from extremely powerful regions that were autonomous in their own right.

Just like a potential fictional Stark/Targaryen match, the real-world Plantagenet/de Montfort marriage was mutually beneficial for all parties... at first. The Plantagenets got the support of a powerful rich baron and a potential threat to Henry III's reign, and de Montfort got to father sons with royal Plantagenet blood off Eleanor. The ASoIaF motivations for the secret marriage are the same, only GRRM switched the royal with the baron. Rickard = Henry III; Rhaegar = Simon de Montfort. Simon de Montfort was a reformer and and idealist, much like Rhaegar might have been if he'd lived.

Another similarity is that Simon was defeated and killed, just as Rhaegar was, in a massive rebellion of the nobility. Once again, the players are reversed. In the real world, the rebellious lord (Simon) was defeated by the royal family (Prince Edward, Henry III's son). In ASoIaF, the royal (Rhaegar) was defeated by the rebellious lord (Robert). So the world of RR is a world where the rebel usurped the Plantagenet dynasty and became king.

Of course, nothing maps out as a perfect parallel here. The genius of GRRM is that he's not rewriting history or adhering to a checklist of traditional high fantasy conventions, but subverting things in interesting ways. But as I read, something about the entire Tourney of Harrenhal, Year of the False Spring, and the lead up to Robert's Rebellion felt Robin Hood-esque, as if centuries in the future, the legends of the series characters we're reading would be forged into a similar narrative. (Since the series was inspired by the Wars of the Roses, I have no idea why!)

You know, I thought about that after I posted. Aegon had just been born. I can't see Rickard consenting to polygamy AND incest, let alone some airy-fairy prophecy. His only daughter becoming a second wife is already a stretch, but it's probably because his son's honor, virtue, and traditional values have been drummed into readers.

However, we really don't know much about Rickard, other than he raised Ned, the most honorable guy in the series. Hmmm. It is indeed a puzzle...

Unless... Rhaegar and Rickard struck a deal before Elia's pregnancy was confirmed. They correspond or otherwise talk right after Harrenhal, there's some weird deal struck, Elia announces the pregnancy. Deal is off.

Then Aegon is born, Elia can't have any more kids, but the dragon must have three heads. That might explain the year as well as the mix-up in communication.

I'd also love to know if the Crown Prince and the Lord of the North were talking at all, whether or not (and if) Lyanna was given details at every stage. Since this is Westeros? I'm guessing not.

And one of Anne of Bohemias ladys was kidnapped by Richard II favorite, having to become his wife, though he was married to the kings cousin whom he had to divorce.

So, "bride napping" was a way to get around the technicalities.

Also, technically speaking the Starks are of royal blood given they were kings until Aegon invasion.

[Alia of the knife]

As far as POV's go, I trust Selmys the most because he isn't emotionally invested.

As KG, he is privy to all the doings of royal family. He may not be as close to Rhaegar as Author, but he knows the royal family and their history right down to the tragedies.

I think his voice is one of GRRMS conduits for the truth, which is why he is with Dany and slowly and cautiously revealing everything as he knows Dany will not want to hear everything.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

This is a good angle. The snows return, Rickard sends word from Winterfell that Lyanna should stay somewhere below the Neck and not hazard traveling all the way back North.

But Ned and Lyanna discussing bethrotal at Winterfell most likely happened after the tourney. How else would you explain Lyanna's knowledge of Robert's bastard? Ned or Rickard aint gonna tell her that her bethroted has a bastard. That kind of info comes from gossip, which happens more frequently at Tourneys and other social gatherings.

[The guy from the Vale]

This reminds me of a discussion we had way back in the thirties of this thread series... So, yes, I like this very much.

As for the contention that Rickard would have been opposed to incest... Rickard had married his own cousin anyway, so I can't see him complaining with a straight face really.

[Consigliere]

To be fair, cousin marriage is not considered incest by Westeros standards.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

As far as POV's go, I trust Selmys the most because he isn't emotionally invested.

As KG, he is privy to all the doings of royal family. He may not be as close to Rhaegar as Author, but he knows the royal family and their history right down to the tragedies.

I think his voice is one of GRRMS conduits for the truth, which is why he is with Dany and slowly and cautiously revealing everything as he knows Dany will not want to hear everything.

Who says he aint emotionally involved? When he thinks about Harrenhal tourney & Ashara's dishonour, his opinion seems to be mildly coloured by his own emotions towards her. When talking to Dany about Aerys's madness, he is clearly reluctant about going all out. He tries to sandwitch that facet of Aerys between positive (?) aspects of his persona. Every chatacter in ASOIAF is emotionally involved.

[Winterfell's Revenge]

This reminds me of a discussion we had way back in the thirties of this thread series... So, yes, I like this very much.

As for the contention that Rickard would have been opposed to incest... Rickard had married his own cousin anyway, so I can't see him complaining with a straight face really.

Why in the world do people keep saying that cousin marriage in Westeros was incest when it is clear that they didn't consider it as such? If they did, there wouldn't have been frequent cousin marriage.

[Ser Leftwich]

But Ned and Lyanna discussing bethrotal at Winterfell most likely happened after the tourney. How else would you explain Lyanna's knowledge of Robert's bastard? Ned or Rickard aint gonna tell her that her bethroted has a bastard. That kind of info comes from gossip, which happens more frequently at Tourneys and other social gatherings.

Correct. For some reason, that scene is a blank-spot in my mind. I never remember it. Ugh.