Why would the Highlords of Westeros declare for Jon?

[I'm the Party Pooper]

no need for anyone to declare for Jon, ler Aegon and Daenerys get the IT, then they will support their cousin Jon in his war against the true enemy.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Howland Reed must know the truth as may Benjen and perhaps Selmy. Perhaps Jon is the Targaryan heir that Varys is orchestrating things in favour of? I know that seems a stretch but he's undermined Danny and Aegon both and Visaerys, Rhaegar and Aerys before them even as he worked to their apparent ends. He's got to have SOMEONE in mind right?

Varys is a BF loyalist,Aegon is the Dragon Varys has been orchestrating things for,not Jon.Selmy doesn't know the truth if he knew it,it would have been mentioned.If Aegon is real[doubt it but still] and Dany fights him and kills him,he may side with another dragon since i just can believe that Varys doesn't have a plan C.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

no need for anyone to declare for Jon, ler Aegon and Daenerys get the IT, then they will support their cousin Jon in his war against the true enemy.

Agreed.

[Lee-Sensei]

Do you actually believe what you write?How can Jon be a stain on Cat's honour and Elia's honour when Rhaegar married Lyanna thus making Jon legitimate?Let's take take this way Rhaenys was the first wife of Aegon and Visenya the second one,Maegor's existance is the living insult to Rhaenys while Aenys was the living insult to Visenya,the woman who raised him.IT DOES NOT MATTER who is the first or who is the insult if we take it by YOUR LOGIC,Aegon's and Rhaeny's existance shame Lyanna since she was also a wife of Rhaegar,the numbers do not matter in this case,the Valyrians practised polygamy for thousands of year and yet the women saw no shame in it,i hate narrow minded people who hold kids accountable for their parent's sins.Dont you get it?Noone in Dorne cares for Elia anymore,her brothers and many others were angry and sad with what happened to her but 16 years have passed and the only ones plotting for revenge are her brothers noone else,even Arianne does not care and neither did Quentyn,should Jon ally with them,it will be the younger generation,not the older one like Doran who as soon as he hear what happened to Quentyn will soon be dead.

1) Cat's and everyone believes he's Jon's bastard and as such he's a stain on her honor.

2) Rhaegar disrespected and set aside Elia for Lyanna and as such he's a stain on her honor.

3) There's no proof that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married. For all we know he's just a Targ bastard.

4) It doesn't matter how you feel about it. GRRM said that the Dornishmen were angry about how Rhaegar was treating Elia.

5) There's absolutely no proof that no one in Dorne cares about Elia. That's ridiculous. Especially her family.

6) There's no proof Doran will die.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

1) Cat's and everyone believes he's Jon's bastard and as such he's a stain on her honor.

2) Rhaegar disrespected and set aside Elia for Lyanna and as such he's a stain on her honor.

3) There's no proof that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married. For all we know he's just a Targ bastard.

4) It doesn't matter how you feel about it. GRRM said that the Dornishmen were angry about how Rhaegar was treating Elia.

5) There's absolutely no proof that no one in Dorne cares about Elia. That's ridiculous. Especially her family.

6) There's no proof Doran will die.

1.When we know he is not.

2.Since you know everything about what happened in Robert's Rebellion,i will tell you one thing,Rhaegar and Elia were friends in a marriage nothing more.I guess you are one of those probably narrow-minded people and one of those people that blame kids for their parent's folly but i am totally ok with it.The dornish were ok with Rhaegar as long as Aegon remained his heir nothing more,nothing else.

3.Jon on why he is not allowed to train with Joffrey.-Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes?Who is the prince?

This is Mtn Lion's essay enjoy.

We know they were married since the Kingsguard were protecting her.I hope this answers your questions.What Jon thinks he is saying:

Joff = Prince

Jon = Bastard

What's really going on:

Joff= bastard

Jon = Prince/King/Son of Rhaegar and Lyanna who were married

Or, it is a big hint that Jon is legitmate, and Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. Apparently Lyanna being at the tower is no secret, it is specified in the App (see my signature for the quote).

Ned's recurring dream, so don't presume to argue against it because it is a fever dream. It is recurring, and it holds deep meaning for Ned. It makes sense to Ned. It is a source of grief for Ned. He killed three of the finest knights he had ever known, one of them Ned says was the best of all, Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ned and his friends arrive at the tower, as they had in life. Again, this dream is based upon real events. This actually occurred, and the dialog is likely paraphrased in Ned's memory, because he is unable to get a lifelike image of his friends. He vividly remembers the three Kingsguard, though. The conversation must have a deep meaning for Ned. The only vow that we can be sure that Ned knows is the vow that Kingsguard take before receiving their white cloak. Jaime and others tell us that it is to protect and defend the king, dying for him, if need be. There are also some ancillary promises, but the first priority is given as protection and defense of the crown, all other promises descend from that.

"I looked for you on the Trident, Ned said to them.

Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident. He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Roberts friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmys wounds. He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle. He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.

We were not there, Ser Gerold answered.

From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three. Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.

Woe to the Usurper if we had been, said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle. They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.

When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaimes hand. Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king. He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when Kings Landing fell.

Far away, Ser Gerold said, or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.

Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present. Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys. He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.

I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege, Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

Our knees do not bend easily, said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.

Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Neds capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friends and the Kingsguards best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.

Ser Willem is a good man and true, said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard. They are admitting that they know that "Prince" Viserys is without a Kingsguard. They have ignored the insult of labeling Viserys as a prince, when he should be considered the king.

But not of the Kingsguard, Ser Gerold pointed out. The Kingsguard does not flee.

On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would shortly be under siege. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with King Aerys, Elia, and her children.

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection. Taken together with Neds statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower sees leaving King Aerys' side at Kings Landing as fleeing from his duty, even if it was to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys.

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. Without a Kingsguard to protect them Darry, Viserys and Daenerys are nearly captured and turned over to Robert. They manage to escape just before Dragonstone surrenders.

Then or now, said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys. The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) as Rhaella and Viserys flee King's Landing. It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation, by their vow, to stay and protect and defend someone at the tower (now).

We swore a vow, explained old Ser Gerold.

The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguards vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.

Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.

Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.

Ser Gerolds decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.

Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

Reading these three statements, The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow; puts things in a very clear light.

Neds wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior. Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale. Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur. In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods. Kingsguard practice daily among themselves.

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill. Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire. It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail. Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.

And now it begins, said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur. It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret.

No, Ned said with sadness in his voice. Now it ends.

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honors sake.

Spoiler

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay. Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay. Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

4.Doran and Oberyn and most of Dorne cared for Elia and were angry with what Tywin did to her in the Sack,certainly not with Lyanna and her son.Jon is not a strain in anyone's honour and as the Dornish have said countless times,they don't hold the children responsible for their parent's actions,they are not narrow-minded,they are more open minded than the Southern themselves.As i said people 16 years ago were angry with what happened Elia and her children,guess what?After 16 years the only people seeking revenge for her are her brothers,noone else.Jon will be supported by the younger generation,not the older one.They do hate the Lannisters but yet they do not hold the Starks responsible for what happened.

5.Doran cant walk,his health could not go worse,his brother has died,his sister and his nephew and niece have died,what do you think will happen to him when he finds out that the Dragon BITCH has roasted his son on fire?Arianne is in charge and i can post you foreshodowing if that's what you wish.

[Jay21]

The point that I meant to make was more that Varys may well have known if Rhaegar had another son. I don't really know about the whole Blackfire thing though. Aegon certainly doesn't know about it and basing his legitimacy upon the word of disgraced Connington and untrusted and hated Varys seems like the kind of play that only a legitimate claimant would have the desperation to try. Certainly these Blackfires would have more respectable 'witnesses' lined up if it was a hoax from the start.

I also have troubles with the gift of dragon eggs to Danny if the long game was for Aegon to sit the throne. Whether or not they were believed to be hatchable is irrelevant. They were the not oddities or baubles they were core to the Targ birthright and heritage and not something to be discarded with some princess who may or may not survive her wedding night.

I'll admit though that Jon being part of the agenda seems like an enormous stretch, it's just something that occurred to me while I was thinking of possible sources for the knowledge of Jon's true birth.

[sj4iy]

I thought the "king Jon Snow" bit was interesting as well, but king of what remains to be seen. I'll grant that there are a lot of chapters yet ahead but I really believe that the Iron Throne is going to fade in relevance as the legions of the dead infest the north. My suspicion is that if anything he is hailed as King Beyond the Wall (or At as the case may be) in the reorganization that follows the treachery at the end of ADWD.

...but that's not what he's 'king' of, if he's king of anything. If he's king of anything, he's King of Westeros by birth or King in the North by Robb's will.

[Jay21]

I read someone talking about how the three headed dragon may be three aspects to the same person, such as perhaps King Beyond the Wall, King in the North and King of the Seven Kingdoms, but I just can't see Jon's character in Kingslanding.

[Wmarshal]

Since Dany has 3 dragons and a bigger army,i am going with the possibilities.Did you see my other coments?I am one of those people that like Dany and Jon but prefer Aegon sitting in the IT.Based on Jon's dream,i think those things will prove who he is.Theon sees Lyanna dressed in a white gown=wedding cloak, maybe there are other things like a dragon egg,dark sister maybe,mounting a dragon could prove his heritage,Rhaegar's harp and some kinda degree of legitimisation by his real father and he will probably find out soon.There are many kinds of foreshadowings,Sam killing Euron,Dany fighting Aegon or Jon,Aegon wedding Arianne,Jon wedding Arianne,Aegon wedding Arianne,there are many kinds of foreshadowings if we search deep into the text so no i dont believe that any foreshodowing with Jon sitting in the IT is the only one or the real one.

You mean three wild babies and her army is made of a horde of exslaves with little battle prowess. I was speaking of the Arianne wedding Jon.Sorry on picking on you, just a general announce of this foreshadow rule.

[sj4iy]

I read someone talking about how the three headed dragon may be three aspects to the same person, such as perhaps King Beyond the Wall, King in the North and King of the Seven Kingdoms, but I just can't see Jon's character in Kingslanding.

It sounds strange to me, too, but I think things are going to get very strange.

[Stannis's birthright]

If the Wall falls .. Jon's oath is finished ... That is one worry he won't have to be concerned within . Then if he is approached by the remaining lords of the North and told of Robs Will he will except it . Giving him control of the North and the Riverlands and if Sansa has suduced Harry and is now manipulating him could also get a help from the Vale . With Aegon seizing the IT and the Baratheon lords and the remaining Lannister banner man will have no where else to go if they want to keep what is theirs. Do you think the Tryells will ally with faegon and the hated Martells .. I doubt it

[Lee-Sensei]

1.When we know he is not.

2.Since you know everything about what happened in Robert's Rebellion,i will tell you one thing,Rhaegar and Elia were friends in a marriage nothing more.I guess you are one of those probably narrow-minded people and one of those people that blame kids for their parent's folly but i am totally ok with it.The dornish were ok with Rhaegar as long as Aegon remained his heir nothing more,nothing else.

3.Jon on why he is not allowed to train with Joffrey.-Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes?Who is the prince?

This is Mtn Lion's essay enjoy.

We know they were married since the Kingsguard were protecting her.I hope this answers your questions.What Jon thinks he is saying:

Joff = Prince

Jon = Bastard

What's really going on:

Joff= bastard

Jon = Prince/King/Son of Rhaegar and Lyanna who were married

Or, it is a big hint that Jon is legitmate, and Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. Apparently Lyanna being at the tower is no secret, it is specified in the App (see my signature for the quote).

Ned's recurring dream, so don't presume to argue against it because it is a fever dream. It is recurring, and it holds deep meaning for Ned. It makes sense to Ned. It is a source of grief for Ned. He killed three of the finest knights he had ever known, one of them Ned says was the best of all, Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ned and his friends arrive at the tower, as they had in life. Again, this dream is based upon real events. This actually occurred, and the dialog is likely paraphrased in Ned's memory, because he is unable to get a lifelike image of his friends. He vividly remembers the three Kingsguard, though. The conversation must have a deep meaning for Ned. The only vow that we can be sure that Ned knows is the vow that Kingsguard take before receiving their white cloak. Jaime and others tell us that it is to protect and defend the king, dying for him, if need be. There are also some ancillary promises, but the first priority is given as protection and defense of the crown, all other promises descend from that.

"I looked for you on the Trident, Ned said to them.

Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident. He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Roberts friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmys wounds. He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle. He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.

We were not there, Ser Gerold answered.

From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three. Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.

Woe to the Usurper if we had been, said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle. They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.

When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaimes hand. Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king. He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when Kings Landing fell.

Far away, Ser Gerold said, or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.

Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present. Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys. He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.

I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege, Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

Our knees do not bend easily, said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.

Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Neds capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friends and the Kingsguards best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.

Ser Willem is a good man and true, said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard. They are admitting that they know that "Prince" Viserys is without a Kingsguard. They have ignored the insult of labeling Viserys as a prince, when he should be considered the king.

But not of the Kingsguard, Ser Gerold pointed out. The Kingsguard does not flee.

On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would shortly be under siege. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with King Aerys, Elia, and her children.

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection. Taken together with Neds statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower sees leaving King Aerys' side at Kings Landing as fleeing from his duty, even if it was to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys.

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. Without a Kingsguard to protect them Darry, Viserys and Daenerys are nearly captured and turned over to Robert. They manage to escape just before Dragonstone surrenders.

Then or now, said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys. The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) as Rhaella and Viserys flee King's Landing. It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation, by their vow, to stay and protect and defend someone at the tower (now).

We swore a vow, explained old Ser Gerold.

The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguards vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.

Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.

Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.

Ser Gerolds decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.

Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

Reading these three statements, The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow; puts things in a very clear light.

Neds wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior. Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale. Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur. In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods. Kingsguard practice daily among themselves.

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill. Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire. It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail. Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.

And now it begins, said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur. It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret.

No, Ned said with sadness in his voice. Now it ends.

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honors sake.

Spoiler

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay. Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay. Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

4.Doran and Oberyn and most of Dorne cared for Elia and were angry with what Tywin did to her in the Sack,certainly not with Lyanna and her son.Jon is not a strain in anyone's honour and as the Dornish have said countless times,they don't hold the children responsible for their parent's actions,they are not narrow-minded,they are more open minded than the Southern themselves.As i said people 16 years ago were angry with what happened Elia and her children,guess what?After 16 years the only people seeking revenge for her are her brothers,noone else.Jon will be supported by the younger generation,not the older one.They do hate the Lannisters but yet they do not hold the Starks responsible for what happened.

5.Doran cant walk,his health could not go worse,his brother has died,his sister and his nephew and niece have died,what do you think will happen to him when he finds out that the Dragon BITCH has roasted his son on fire?Arianne is in charge and i can post you foreshodowing if that's what you wish.

1) But they don't.

2) Sorry Rhaegal. but you're word doesn't mean more than GRRRM's.

Ned's army did not accompany him to Dorne, no. There were no battles in Dorne during Robert's Rebellion, though doubtless there were minor skirmishes along the borders. But it's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia.

3) Speculation.

4) Proof that they don't hold it against Jon and even if they don't they won't support him. I don't remember them saying they don't hold children responsible for their parents' actions. Proof that no one else in Dorne cares about Elia and her children.

5) Speculation.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

1) But they don't.

2) Sorry Rhaegal. but you're word doesn't mean more than GRRRM's.

Ned's army did not accompany him to Dorne, no. There were no battles in Dorne during Robert's Rebellion, though doubtless there were minor skirmishes along the borders. But it's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia.

3) Speculation.

4) Proof that they don't hold it against Jon and even if they don't they won't support him. I don't remember them saying they don't hold children responsible for their parents' actions. Proof that no one else in Dorne cares about Elia and her children.

5) Speculation.

1.I never meant to be rude but the word saint is neither a good one and neither a polite one,dont make use of it or you will be portrayed in a negative way by the others and i can tell you this from my expierences.

2.Being angry with what happened to Aegon,Rhaenys and Elia's death by the hands of Tywin Lannister is one thing but being angry with Rhaegar wedding Lyanna is another thing,noone preety much knows what happened to her.In fact when Oberyn speaks with Tywin,he never

straight up mentions the Starks who would be held responsible for what happened in Robert's Rebellion,that's why because he understands

that they were forced to join into the Rebellion.I know we had many skirmishes in Dorne but no real battles.Noone that time knew what Rhaegar was doing that time except Robert who thought he was banging his beautiful Lyanna and he was right about it.Second noone ever knew that the Rebellion would cause such a chaos because remember in the beggining the Royal Army had the bigger army and everyone was almost sure the Rebels would lose,noone ever thought that the Rebellion could expand in such scale.The Dornish had to support Rhaegar supporting him means that his half-Dornish son will sit on the dam chair,same thing happened in the case of Baelor.

3.There is nothing to spectaculate about,i just proved to you that Jon is legitimate.

4.Oberyn Nymeros Martell cant remember the exact quote-In Dorne we don't hold the children responsible for their father's actions or their grandfathers.In this case Jon wont be held responsible for Rhaegar's foolisness and Aery's madness.I told you the older generation who was the younger one 16 years ago was saddened with what happened to Elia but sixteen years have passed and the only ones thinking about her every day and every hour are her brothers,they are the only ones plotting revenge when the others have simply forgot about it.

5.When i have talked with 100 people and the 99 have told me that Doran will soon die since based on his health's issues,i am going with the odds.

[Lee-Sensei]

1.I never meant to be rude but the word saint is neither a good one and neither a polite one,dont make use of it or you will be portrayed in a negative way by the others and i can tell you this from my expierences.

2.Being angry with what happened to Aegon,Rhaenys and Elia's death by the hands of Tywin Lannister is one thing but being angry with Rhaegar wedding Lyanna is another thing,noone preety much knows what happened to her.In fact when Oberyn speaks with Tywin,he never

straight up mentions the Starks who would be held responsible for what happened in Robert's Rebellion,that's why because he understands

that they were forced to join into the Rebellion.I know we had many skirmishes in Dorne but no real battles.Noone that time knew what Rhaegar was doing that time except Robert who thought he was banging his beautiful Lyanna and he was right about it.Second noone ever knew that the Rebellion would cause such a chaos because remember in the beggining the Royal Army had the bigger army and everyone was almost sure the Rebels would lose,noone ever thought that the Rebellion could expand in such scale.The Dornish had to support Rhaegar supporting him means that his half-Dornish son will sit on the dam chair,same thing happened in the case of Baelor.

3.There is nothing to spectaculate about,i just proved to you that Jon is legitimate.

4.Oberyn Nymeros Martell cant remember the exact quote-In Dorne we don't hold the children responsible for their father's actions or their grandfathers.In this case Jon wont be held responsible for Rhaegar's foolisness and Aery's madness.I told you the older generation who was the younger one 16 years ago was saddened with what happened to Elia but sixteen years have passed and the only ones thinking about her every day and every hour are her brothers,they are the only ones plotting revenge when the others have simply forgot about it.

5.When i have talked with 100 people and the 99 have told me that Doran will soon die since based on his health's issues,i am going with the odds.

1) When did I use the word saint?

2) Nah. They know that Lyanna and Rhaegar were together whether it was rape or love.

3) No you didn't. That's speculation. It's not confirmed.

4) That's the TV Show.

5) Those people don't know either. It's speculation.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

1) When did I use the word saint?

2) Nah. They know that Lyanna and Rhaegar were together whether it was rape or love.

3) No you didn't. That's speculation. It's not confirmed.

4) That's the TV Show.

5) Those people don't know either. It's speculation.

1.Stain.Fixed that.

2.Confirm it.

3.Nope we have actually done it countless times and i have no problem proving it again.You might as well argue as why were The Kingsguard defending a tower instead of going to Viserys but i will wait.

4.If i bring you examples of the Dornish dont being narrow-minded and proving my point,i hope you stop with the whole part the Dornish will blame him since he is a saint in Elia's honour.Rhaegar wedded Lyanna but you try to make the others think that he is a saint in Elia's honour when he is not.He would only be a saint to her if he was a bastard when the most of us have proved that he is not.As i said,the Dornish are more open minded than the Southerns and dont share a rivarly with the children just because of something their father's or their grandfather's deeds.

When Oberyn dies,do you remember the little speech of Ellaria to the sand snakes?I wish i could find it but she straight up says that everyone who was involved with what happened to Elia is dead,she sees Joffrey as a boy when he dies in front of her eyes,a horrible boy but still a boy,she says that he was the one who was punished for his family's sins.She does not blame him and neither does Oberyn for the evil deeds his grandfather commited.

5.Based on Doran's health and the foreshodowing,they kinda know it.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

You mean three wild babies and her army is made of a horde of exslaves with little battle prowess. I was speaking of the Arianne wedding Jon.Sorry on picking on you, just a general announce of this foreshadow rule.

You could call Viserion and Rhaegal babies since they will probably die soon but that's just not the case with Drogo.I agree her army is mostly based on Unsullied,Dothraki and ex-slaves but it's not hard to imagine she will gain a foothold in Westeros and make allies among the Arryns and the Greyjoys.Aegon is my second favourite character,i am rooting for him and hopes he succeds.I liked The Blackfyres at first but they have just grown pathetic=Seven Rebellions?Really?Anyway i hope this time will be the lucky one.

[Lee-Sensei]

1.Stain.Fixed that.

2.Confirm it.

3.Nope we have actually done it countless times and i have no problem proving it again.You might as well argue as why were The Kingsguard defending a tower instead of going to Viserys but i will wait.

4.If i bring you examples of the Dornish dont being narrow-minded and proving my point,i hope you stop with the whole part the Dornish will blame him since he is a saint in Elia's honour.Rhaegar wedded Lyanna but you try to make the others think that he is a saint in Elia's honour when he is not.He would only be a saint to her if he was a bastard when the most of us have proved that he is not.As i said,the Dornish are more open minded than the Southerns and dont share a rivarly with the children just because of something their father's or their grandfather's deeds.

When Oberyn dies,do you remember the little speech of Ellaria to the sand snakes?I wish i could find it but she straight up says that everyone who was involved with what happened to Elia is dead,she sees Joffrey as a boy when he dies in front of her eyes,a horrible boy but still a boy,she says that he was the one who was punished for his family's sins.She does not blame him and neither does Oberyn for the evil deeds his grandfather commited.

5.Based on Doran's health and the foreshodowing,they kinda know it.1

1) Jon was.

2) I already did.

3) That's speculation too. You've proven nothing.

4) The reason Ellaria has to remind them that the people they were angry at is dead is because they do want revenge. Thanks for proving my point.

5) No foreshadowing and his health isn't that bad. Gout isn't fatal.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

1) Jon was.

2) I already did.

3) That's speculation too. You've proven nothing.

4) The reason Ellaria has to remind them that the people they were angry at is dead is because they do want revenge. Thanks for proving my point.

5) No foreshadowing and his health isn't that bad. Gout isn't fatal.

1.Doesn't change the fact that the word is neither a good one and neither a polite one.I would recomend you to stop making use of it.

2.You did not.Only King Bob thought Rhaegar was banging Lyanna.

3.I dont really need to prove anything.Should Viserys be kind,Gerold Hightower would have gone to him,Rhaegar had kingsguard with him,Aerys had kingsguard with him.Why didn't King Viserys have kingsguard with him since he was king?Gerold Hightower makes it clear=The Kingsguard does not flee,We Swore a Vow=What vow?

4.I should actually thank you for starting to adress my point.You see they want revenge,revenge from who?From Tommen?From Myrcella?From Cersei?Who exactly is their target?Does Cersei and Jaime have anything to do with Oberyn's death?Ellaria makes it clear to them,all those involved to the death of Elia are dead,they are either dead or Oberyn took care of them.What do the Sand Snakes want?They want to punish Jaime and Cersei for what crime,for living?It's like saying that Oberyn will kill Jon because he is guilty of living.Since she reminded them,Ellaria makes it clear that the children are not to blame for their father's sins.This is were my arguement is based on.Thank you for proving my point.Ellaria who is a DORNISHWOMAN

thinks that children are not to be blamed for their parent's sins and shows to the Sand Snakes

that they are acting like this because their father is dead.This shows that DORNISH are not narrow-minded as you want them to be.Oberyn can call Lyanna a whore,Rhaegar a douchebag but he wont put the blame on their child.

5.Excuse me?Since i am not in the mood,have you ever heard fathers dying from depression,heart attacks etc etc etc.Gout isn't fatal,i wish it was Doran's only problem,he has many other health issues as well.I can post you several historical figures from Sultan Suleiman to King Themistocles,i can show you examples from GOT if that's what you wish where fathers have died from depression or heart attack when they have seen their children die.When Doran hears what happened to Quentyn from GERRICK,i will be here again.

[Lee-Sensei]

1.Doesn't change the fact that the word is neither a good one and neither a polite one.I would recomend you to stop making use of it.

2.You did not.Only King Bob thought Rhaegar was banging Lyanna.

3.I dont really need to prove anything.Should Viserys be kind,Gerold Hightower would have gone to him,Rhaegar had kingsguard with him,Aerys had kingsguard with him.Why didn't King Viserys have kingsguard with him since he was king?Gerold Hightower makes it clear=The Kingsguard does not flee,We Swore a Vow=What vow?

4.I should actually thank you for starting to adress my point.You see they want revenge,revenge from who?From Tommen?From Myrcella?From Cersei?Who exactly is their target?Does Cersei and Jaime have anything to do with Oberyn's death?Ellaria makes it clear to them,all those involved to the death of Elia are dead,they are either dead or Oberyn took care of them.What do the Sand Snakes want?They want to punish Jaime and Cersei for what crime,for living?It's like saying that Oberyn will kill Jon because he is guilty of living.Since she reminded them,Ellaria makes it clear that the children are not to blame for their father's sins.This is were my arguement is based on.Thank you for proving my point.Ellaria who is a DORNISHWOMAN

thinks that children are not to be blamed for their parent's sins and shows to the Sand Snakes

that they are acting like this because their father is dead.This shows that DORNISH are not narrow-minded as you want them to be.Oberyn can call Lyanna a whore,Rhaegar a douchebag but he wont put the blame on their child.

5.Excuse me?Since i am not in the mood,have you ever heard fathers dying from depression,heart attacks etc etc etc.Gout isn't fatal,i wish it was Doran's only problem,he has many other health issues as well.I can post you several historical figures from Sultan Suleiman to King Themistocles,i can show you examples from GOT if that's what you wish where fathers have died from depression or heart attack when they have seen their children die.When Doran hears what happened to Quentyn from GERRICK,i will be here again.

I disagree.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

I disagree.

Since we cant agree,there is no point in arguing then,is there?