[Book Spoilers] EP409 Discussion

[Lord Carson]

Insulted, offended, defamation of character? Come on man...it's a freaking message board.

Perhaps the lightheartedness and joking nature of that post did not come across very well to some. I can assure you, I'm not too upset. I'm a peaceful fella, don't want no anger.

[Thelastactionhero]

Document this thread, this is the first time you'll see so many people complain that a certain storyline wasn't rushed.

Yeah. Cause omtting a character entirely is totally the same as rushing their biggest moment. Can't wait to see his 2 minutes of glory next episode.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

And doing absolutely nothing of importance.

they are casted NW. Give a cuple of episodes until Slynt head is chopped, Aemon and Sam are gone and Jon suddenly has no pal other than Edd.

[JonDunn]

Document this thread, this is the first time you'll see so many people complain that a certain storyline wasn't rushed.

lol.

[Mladen]

Because the debates aren't about what makes good television, but what goes against everybody's preconceived notions about the perfect adaptation of ASOIAF. Again, the pacing of the battle was more faithful to the books than what many posters wanted or were expecting, and that's what is upsetting so many. Jon Snow was one of my favorite characters in the books, and he's been my biggest disappointment in the show. I'm also a big fan of Stannis in the books, and I greatly prefer SD's Stannis performance than Kit's Jon Snow. But in the grand scheme of things we needed a good Jon Snow episode. The first couple of chapters about the battle were about Jon coming into his own and learning how to lead. I remember all of the outrage over the show combining all of the battles into one episode, and now everybody is upset that it is split over two episodes, not because it's bastardizing the books, but because certain posters wanted to rush the story to make it all about Stannis. Stannis will get his moment, but not at the expense of Jon Snow, who is a more important character, in the books and the show.

And this was a good Jon Snow episode? I have no problem with Stannis not being there, I have not problem with the deaths, but this was epic failure. This was like wannabe-Blackwater, and ended somewhere in confusion of what makes a good episode with an epic battle. Nothing here was faithful to the books, and that even isn't the issue here. The issue is that this sucked as the episode, not as the adaptation. This was badly constructed, unimaginative, humorless, uninspiring... There was CGI on some moments, but at the end, nothing that would live up to "as big as Tv gets"

To be quite fair, I don't think the episode sucked. But It was certainly not the best episode this season, and I'm not sure if it even makes it to the Top 5 of the season.

This was worse than Jaime raping Cersei and the beetles talk together... Not having Stannis tonight was the least of this episode's failures.

Wellcome to the club of the abused characters. You ve a place to sit between Jaime and Stannis.

Oh, dear... We have been in that club long before Stannis and Jaime :)

Edited June 9, 2014 by Mladen

[jarl the climber]

I cant see why Thorne wont be named as LC.

Well some people might hold the whole thing about not sealing the tunnel against him and he did leave an idiot craven in charge at the top of the Wall but he did fight bravely so I guess he might still have some support.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I advise you to drink a lot of coffee or red bull next week, because I have a feeling that if you blink a couple of times you might miss Stannis and his moment.

lol

[Queen of Whores]

Document this thread, this is the first time you'll see so many people complain that a certain storyline wasn't rushed.

Oh don't worry, the now sure-to-be rushed as fuck finale will more than make up for it. I hope we're allowed to catch at least a small glimpse of Stannis walking by next episode, what with all the Daenerys and Tyrion bullshit we'll be subjected to.

[Pearlthegirl]

I'm so confused about why the fanatics are worried that Stannis will have lost his moment. If anything, the show went out of it's way to set up Stannis being some hero. They set up Jon looking as the hero of battle numero uno who talks to other heros of the battle about how they are totally fucked because Mance still so greatly outnumbers them, then our hero Jon goes off into the sunset to meet with Mance without wolf or weapon totally thinking he's going to die and he'll be surrounded by giants and mammoths and 100k wildlings and it will look impressively sinister for Jon until suddenly, this dude comes out of the trees and saves the fucking day. That's a better set up for Stannis in the books because this time, Jon volunteered rather than where he was forced to do it in the books. He's walking out there like a boss and if the negotiation doesn't go well, he's dead. Of course, Jon may likely be negotiating with Mance, like he was in the books, when Stannis shows up, but still...come on. How much more of a "stannis saves the day" set up do you fanatics need? Get a grip.

This entirely!

I was expecting Stannis myself, thinking they'd rush through the Wall story lines as they've butchered them all season. In the end I'm glad they're sticking to the books this time! They did not properly build to this all season, it's true, but this episode was a love story to the Night's Watch. And that alone. Stannis' story really builds after this(in the books). He UnderDog's his way in to save the day when the Watch has depleted themselves doing their jobs. Its where I began to like and root for Stannis when I read the books. Where he overcomes his previous defeats. I hope he gets his due from here on. I am worried considering his portrayal thus far but I'm not going to write off his looming heroism just because he didn't get an episode finale. I pray they start showing Stannis some love because I can empathize with the StanStans frustrations with his show portrayal. But really, this is a turning point for his character. Where he fights for his realm and not his entitlement. I do hope they don't blow that.

I'd like to repeat: This episode was a love story to The Night's Watch. I am pleased. There were some great technical shots :

The panoramic of the Castle Black side.

The swinging Scythe taking out the climbers.

Mammoths and Giants, oh my!

Ghost vision

And character development of, yes those guys, those Watchers on the Wall! (episode Title anyone?)

Aemon sharing wisdom

Jon and Sam showing the innocence of their youth before battle.

Grenn filling in for Donal Noye and HOLDING THE EFFIN GATE AGAINST AN EFFIN GIANT

Newfound respect for Aliser Thorne(what? Yeah!)

Slynt's denial and cowardice.

Jon's smile when he sees Ygritte aiming right at him!

The kid's vengeance for his parents.

Damnit Pyp, RIP

Sam releasing Ghost

Edd, the Wall is yours

For the Strangers sake people, not a bad little love story to the true heroes of the damn realm.

Here's hoping we're all happy with the finale next week. Not bloody likely.

Yeah, alright, it went too fast and ended abruptly...I was on the edge of my seat the whole time.

[Jay92]

So with the lack of Stannis in this episode, does this mean Jon won't become LC this season? I figured he would, but there's way too many things that have to happen at the wall, and only one episode to go now.

It was sad to see Pyp and Grenn die, but at least Edd is still around.

No it will happen since Jon season 5 arc will be a set up for command. We just won't have the whole vote over days and like 5 guys being voted for command. Stannis will offer Winterfell, Jon will struggle with the decision but ultimately decide he can't take it because Bran is out there and that's when he gets voted by all the men. It won't be drawn out as it was in the books.

Still though, next episode will be crazy jam packed.

[BloodSausage]

7 dvided by 66=9 nine minutes each.

You don't need the full allotment for each story line. 4 minutes is enough for the LSH reveal. Neither bran nor dani will need all that time either. Should leave enough for Tyrion and Stannis.

Seriously though, D&D are trolls if we don't get LSH.

[juanml82]

I cant see why Thorne wont be named as LC.

Maybe because he didn't seal the Gate? In the books is clear everyone hates him after going through his boot camp. Slynt is definitely out of the competition, so I guess it will be between Thorne and Jon.

Then again, Thorne might not survive, making the competition between, I don't know, Jon and Edd?

On a side note, Edd was a badass. Too bad we missed Grenn and the other suckers killing the giant, though.

And now, carry on complaining. I guess that's why TV shows forums are for.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

Apparently, unnecessary trips to Braavos really hold you up. Although is it possible the Wildling retreat that they interpret as them just waiting until tomorrow is actually Stannis' army?

[DaveyJoe]

Your not paying attention to what we are saying. Stupid filler scenes like Missandei's or the moron beetle crusher convo last week could have been cut and there could have been Wall preparation scenes...a lot of the stuff that was talk and not the actual fighting.

The storyline of the Battle at the Wall didn't all need to be shoved into one episode. Spread it out over two or three episodes so that the battle isn't rushed and Stannis can arrive. It wouldn't be rushed, it'd be just right.

I'm amazed that I see comments like this from people who have read the books. Character moments are not "stupid filler." It's a different medium, and it's smart that the show fleshes out supporting characters that are tied to the story instead of including everybody and making them all two dimensional caricatures. I personally loved the Grey Worm/Missandei and Sam/Gilly scenes because they fleshed out characters that have been established. Sam and Gilly are important to the Wall storyline so it makes sense that they'd get some moments in this episode, along with Maester Aemon. Just wait and see how Stannis is handled next episode, I promise you he'll be featured.

[Cas Stark]

You don't need the full allotment for each story line. 4 minutes is enough for the LSH reveal. Neither bran nor dani will need all that time either. Should leave enough for Tyrion and Stannis.

Seriously though, D&D are trolls if we don't get LSH.

You are clinically insane if you think D&D is going to end the season with only 4 minutes of Khaleesi.

[Florina Laufeyson]

It blows my mind that posters here have complained for 4 years about the show being unfaithful to the books and have nitpicked every single detail to death, then made up their minds about the pacing of this episode and are ripping the show apart because it was faithful to the pacing of the battle at the Wall. I've heard so many complaints about major events being rushed, but now people are upset because the show didn't rush the battle enough to give Stannis his moment in the sun. I'm a Stannis supporter for the IT, but the first skirmish at the Wall was about Jon Snow. A more prominent, a more important character in the books. The outrage here isn't because the show has been unfaithful, but because the show didn't rush the wall story line and make it about Stannis. There is no logic here. The naysayers here are guilty of the very same character bias they've accused D&D of previously. It's so sad because they won't be able to enjoy one of the most cinematic, intense episodes of television produced to date.

LOL no joke, man. :agree:

The Scythe was the coolest fucking thing ever. :drool:

That was so bomb. Edd <3

I have no idea about how D&D feel about Stannis, nor do I think it really matters since this is their baby and they can tell it anyway they want. Still, my big problem is that a lot of Stannis fans lack the ability to articulate why Stannis' arc is problematic for the show. The thing about Melisandre being the one credited with Stannis' decisions is a good point because it has made Davos out to be a completely useless character since there is no angel on Stannis' shoulder to balance out that devil (I'm likening Mel to the devil here). From what I recall, they haven't yet made the shift from Stannis being reliant on Mel to him relying more on Davos.

The show hasnt made that shift yet but i assume its coming. Stannis will have his Big Damn Heroes moment. Davos and Stannis made the trek to Braavos in the show, without Mel so i think that was the turning point for Stannis to rely on Davos more. Cuz Davos spoke up for him and gained the favor of the Iron Bank.

Nope, just vinegar.

Piss and vinegar. :V

Document this thread, this is the first time you'll see so many people complain that a certain storyline wasn't rushed.

:rofl:

This was worse than Jaime raping Cersei and the beetles talk together... Not having Stannis tonight was the least of this episode's failures.

Hyperbole really doesnt suit you, mate.

[YourMomsBox]

I think Pyp and Grenn dying was fitting (but I kinda wish Pyp survived). Grenn's death was really special. In GoT, very few die in such a heroic manner. Most deaths are grisly and leave a bitter feeling (ala Ned, RW, the Viper and most minor characters).

Grenn's scene was so great...better than any role he could have if he had lived on.

[juanml82]

This entirely!

I was expecting Stannis myself, thinking they'd rush through the Wall story lines as they've butchered them all season. In the end I'm glad they're sticking to the books this time! They did not properly build to this all season, it's true, but this episode was a love story to the Night's Watch. And that alone. Stannis' story really builds after this(in the books). He UnderDog's his way in to save the day when the Watch has depleted themselves doing their jobs. Its where I began to like and root for Stannis when I read the books. Where he overcomes his previous defeats. I hope he gets his due from here on. I am worried considering his portrayal thus far but I'm not going to write off his looming heroism just because he didn't get an episode finale. I pray they start showing Stannis some love because I can empathize with the StanStans frustrations with his show portrayal. But really, this is a turning point for his character. Where he fights for his realm and not his entitlement. I do hope they don't blow that.

I'd like to repeat: This episode was a love story to The Night's Watch. I am pleased. There were some great technical shots :

The panoramic of the Castle Black side.

The swinging Scythe taking out the climbers.

Mammoths and Giants, oh my!

Ghost vision

And character development of, yes those guys, those Watchers on the Wall! (episode Title anyone?)

Aemon sharing wisdom

Jon and Sam showing the innocence of their youth before battle.

Grenn filling in for Donal Noye and HOLDING THE EFFIN GATE AGAINST AN EFFIN GIANT

Newfound respect for Aliser Thorne(what? Yeah!)

Slynt's denial and cowardice.

Jon's smile when he sees Ygritte aiming right at him!

The kid's vengeance for his parents.

Damnit Pyp, RIP

Sam releasing Ghost

Edd, the Wall is yours

For the Strangers sake people, not a bad little love story to the true heroes of the damn realm.

Here's hoping we're all happy with the finale next week. Not bloody likely.

Yeah, alright, it went too fast and ended abruptly...I was on the edge of my seat the whole time.

Where is the like button again?

[Not Dead Just Broken]

Maybe because he didn't seal the Gate? In the books is clear everyone hates him after going through his boot camp. Slynt is definitely out of the competition, so I guess it will be between Thorne and Jon.

Then again, Thorne might not survive, making the competition between, I don't know, Jon and Edd?

On a side note, Edd was a badass. Too bad we missed Grenn and the other suckers killing the giant, though.

And now, carry on complaining. I guess that's why TV shows forums are for.

Dennys Mallister and Cotter Pyke are Jon's main competition anyway aren't they?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Where the mother fucking fuck is Stannis Baratheon?

I guess we are supposed to think he is been doing basicly evil stuff. Probably stealing candy from Braavosi little children, or hurting kittens.