gamegeknee Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I don't want to get to involved with your list (much of which I agree with), but this one thing I think can be chalked up to the show-runners wanting to leave themselves enough room for options. They may not want to bring Thorne back for next season, in which case they can say he dies off-screen; this will have the added benefit of removing yet another obstacle for JS' rise to LC. However, they may want him to live, and in order to do that they need him to live... silently. Alive so he can stick around for season 5, but not so alive that he can influence decisions and/or become LC of the NW. I think the creators are giving themselves "plausible deniability" as to whatever they decide later on. Frankly, I think Thorne's a great character that they added a lot of flesh to over the seasons; he is a jerk and a vicious Taskmaster, but he really is a true man of the watch and his determination is exemplified in his very harsh attitude. At the same time, he is not "vital" to the story so I can see them offing him. (And, my god, the arrogance of the people who defend everything in the show is rising to a level that rivals the most avid cult-member; disagreement is treason, right?). Or Thorne is just incapacitated. He's probably alive but Tormund beat him up pretty good. Not to mention all the other wounds he may have taken during the battle. He can probably hardly walk and is not in the right mindset to give out commands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 "Butchering".... Haha. Wow... honestly, what they do in the show changes nothing in the books. Stop watching the show and reread the books. Problem solved. This forum: "I HATE the TV show! It's awful!!!!" *tunes in every week without fail* ...and Time Warner, HBO, D&D and GRRM are laughing all the way to the bank for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) Or Thorne is just incapacitated. He's probably alive but Tormund beat him up pretty good. Not to mention all the other wounds he may have taken during the battle. He can probably hardly walk and is not in the right mindset to give out commands. ^This. And if Thorne does die (which I'm doubting will happen at this point), he won't die offscreen, that's for certain. Edited June 9, 2014 by sj4iy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeirwoodWorshiper Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Good episode, fantastic battle sequence. I was a little disappointed they killed both Grenn and Pyp, however Grenn died beautifully and Ed got the wall! highlight for me was seeing that scythe. I think they have enough time in the last episode to resolved Arya and the Hound, for Bran to have a dream about the tree and three eyed crow, for Jon to chat with Mance, Dany's dragons to burn some children, Tyrion to have the mother of family disputes and for Stannis to show up right at the end, so long as there's no more idle beetle chat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I hope book readers caught this part when Jon and Sam went down from the top of the wall to help out with the fight inside the castle. Jon: I don't want you out there. Sam: You can't protect me forever, there won't be anywhere to hide if the castle falls. Jon held out the key to Sam (to unlock the door where Ghost was being held) Jon: I need him more than I need you. Did show runners just foreshadowed the events at Jon's stabbings? Not the detailed explanation of 'second-life' of a skinchanger (Varamyr's prologue), but I think it adds weight to the theory, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starksmustwin Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 They should have taken away some of Sam's character development for the sole purpose of not boring me to death. It's great you think Sam needs extra screentime for his character development, but I don't care for all his repetitive whining. Sam's about to get some show POVs next year like Briene did this year. And you really think them trying to get him some development time was the wrong way to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I think the Jon/Mance meet next Ep won't be a short one. You don't cast someone like Ciaran Hinds and give him just 5 mins. But then with D&D nothing is certain. Also did anyone else notice a knife to Jon's throat in the preview. My apologies for going off topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Daddy Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) I liked the episode quite a bit. I liked having the entire episode devoted to the siege on the Wall, and the buildup to it. It was jarring to have the episode end where it did (especially 9 or so minutes shy of an hour) with no Stannis/cavalry scene. I'm trying to look at it objectively this morning. I'm not a huge Stannis fan, but I do like the character more and more as the books go on. I think some of his hardcore fans are just fuming that he didn't GET his big cavalry moment at the end here where it makes sense to put it. I agree with that...to a point. The other side of that is that this isn't Stannis' story, it's Jon and the Watch's story. I'm feeling like it should have been included here, but my entire opinion of that depends on how well they pull off next week's episode. If it all comes together right, if the scenes are constructed well enough and the editing it done right, all of those things that need to happen can. They should make use of the musical montage at the end to show things like Arya getting on the ship with her coin, Dany locking up the dragons, etc. That can all be done musically without dialogue very effectively. Hell, they can even have 3 scenes at the wall; Jon getting saved by Stannis at the beginning, showing the need for an election for a new LC, then at the end the crows chanting "snow!" and all the coins comedically being tossed in the thing. I can picture all of this in my head, how it would be shot. Of course, I pictured last night's episode in my head too, how it would be shot with Stannis saving the day at the end. That may be a problem a LOT of us have here, last night's episode didn't play out the way we envisioned it in our heads. Something to think about. Edited June 9, 2014 by Big Daddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I hope book readers caught this part when Jon and Sam went down from the top of the wall to help out with the fight inside the castle. Jon: I don't want you out there. Sam: You can't protect me forever, there won't be anywhere to hide if the castle falls. Jon held out the key to Sam (to unlock the door where Ghost was being held) Jon: I need him more than I need you. Did show runners just foreshadowed the events at Jon's stabbings? Not the detailed explanation of 'second-life' of a skinchanger (Varamyr's prologue), but I think it adds weight to the theory, in my opinion. Prolly 😜 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Daddy Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Sam's about to get some show POVs next year like Briene did this year. And you really think them trying to get him some development time was the wrong way to go? Heck, I was watching Sam's scene with Aemon and thinking it was paving the way for them being paired up next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starksmustwin Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Heck, I was watching Sam's scene with Aemon and thinking it was paving the way for them being paired up next season. Exactly. Sam and Gilly too. If people don't like watching Sam, then they're going to be disappointed next season because he will likely get at least 30 or so minutes throughout the season dedicated to his journey to the Citadel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkaggCannibal Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) Sam's about to get some show POVs next year like Briene did this year. And you really think them trying to get him some development time was the wrong way to go? He could use some development, but this was a Sam-overdose. Exactly. Sam and Gilly too. If people don't like watching Sam, then they're going to be disappointed next season because he will likely get at least 30 or so minutes throughout the season dedicated to his journey to the Citadel. Yes I am dreading it already :(. Edited June 9, 2014 by SkaggCannibal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia Atreides Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 They should have taken away some of Sam's character development for the sole purpose of not boring me to death. It's great you think Sam needs extra screentime for his character development, but I don't care for all his repetitive whining. He is not whining; his character has grown evolved even better in the books where he cowered much of the time. I enjoyed seeing Sam grow and show every man can be brave even scared shitless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Daddy Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) Exactly. Sam and Gilly too. If people don't like watching Sam, then they're going to be disappointed next season because he will likely get at least 30 or so minutes throughout the season dedicated to his journey to the Citadel. Which is fine with me. I loves me some Sam! I'm interested in his journey to become a maester. The Gilly lovestory is working for me. Plus there's the whole baby switch thing. Edited June 9, 2014 by Big Daddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clocksquirrel Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Given that Mance has not appeared at all in this series, that we've just had an entire episode at the wall, and that putting in Stannis's attack would require all of the Stannis crew to be shipped to a new filming location for a scene or two, it seems unlikely that we'll see anything else of the wall next week. Surely it'd be more convenient to save the Jon-Mance-Stannis confrontation for next season and just pack next week's episode with the mass of other stuff they have left to cover? Which wouldn't bother me to be honest, Stannis is still coming :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basilisk312 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Fuck you D&D. All this Hype for nothing. i admit i'll be a tad pissed if stannis next week is perfunctory, but i can't be too mad about him not being on tonite... there really wasn't enough time to do it justice... daylight just broke, after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Harbors Wrath Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 They've already shown Stannis' calvary riding through the forest in several previews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Daddy Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Given that Mance has not appeared at all in this series, that we've just had an entire episode at the wall, and that putting in Stannis's attack would require all of the Stannis crew to be shipped to a new filming location for a scene or two, it seems unlikely that we'll see anything else of the wall next week. Surely it'd be more convenient to save the Jon-Mance-Stannis confrontation for next season and just pack next week's episode with the mass of other stuff they have left to cover? Which wouldn't bother me to be honest, Stannis is still coming :P And have ASOS stretch over THREE seasons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 They've already shown Stannis' calvary riding through the forest in several previews. stannis' army making an appearance for sure...but im starting to doubt if we will get more than just a glimpse of him in battle and such...no real interaction with anyone, no conversation...just battle and maybe victory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex21 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I hope book readers caught this part when Jon and Sam went down from the top of the wall to help out with the fight inside the castle. Jon: I don't want you out there. Sam: You can't protect me forever, there won't be anywhere to hide if the castle falls. Jon held out the key to Sam (to unlock the door where Ghost was being held) Jon: I need him more than I need you. Did show runners just foreshadowed the events at Jon's stabbings? Not the detailed explanation of 'second-life' of a skinchanger (Varamyr's prologue), but I think it adds weight to the theory, in my opinion. Please, explain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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