[Book Spoilers] EP409 Discussion

[Nym sand]

I just cant wait till next season to see Jon cutting off Jonos`s fucking head OMG I hate this man so much from the books and the day I read that chapter was a happy day !! I just hate this man so much !! during the episode when he was running I was so scared that he will be killed by a thenn ! but thank the god the kept him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cake]

Yeah, I think we were supposed to do one but the 2 shooting days were cancelled (probably due to budget restrictions). I was told by the AD on set though that the giant smashes his arm through, swats the guys on either side of Grenn then grabs me and pulls me through the gate "like a cheese grater"... For the final scene in the episode I wasn't required because they had a big trail of blood/guts which was me.

- One of the extras when asked about a fight scene between Mag and the watchmen

If this is true then I'm not so sure if I would have wanted that scene after all.

Not sure if I can trust him though, his evidence wasn't that convincing IMO

[The Red Melli]

I am sad Mel and her Army didn't arrive at the wall :bawl:

Yeah. Totally thought the eagle we saw in the beginning would burst into flames by Melisandre at the ending ... They better not cut the eagle bursting into flames. :bang: :bang:

[Ro0ster]

I was under the impression that Clive Russell would reprise his role as The Blackfish in season 4. Does anyone know whether he might appear in the last episode? I would like to see what happened to him after he survived the Red Wedding. Some friends who haven't read the book still actually think he was into the Red Wedding treason. They really need to show him still being loyal to the Stark cause; preferably still this season.

[intheswamp]

Edd, Thorne, Grenn, and Sam were all great. And, while I'm not a fan of the show's interpretation of Jon, Kit Harrington is great in combat scenes. Cowardly Janos was pretty amusing.

I know I wasn't supposed to, but I laughed when that kid gave Jon a what up bro nod after he shot Ygritte while Jon just has a dafuq look on his face.

A lot of awesome shots this episode: The Giants, giant arrow sniping, scythe, mammoth, etc... I only wish we would get more Ghost.

Edited June 9, 2014 by intheswamp

[Caerl Targaryen]

Common guys! I'm pretty sure D&D are not going to let us down, being fans themselves. We're going to get exactly what we want and in retrospect we'll be as pleased as we now are confused. Keep in mind that D&D are fans, that's why they're doing this show, so why on earth would they be doing anything that wouldn't make sense to us (fellow) fans!?

They've consistently let me down. Oberyn fighting the Mountain was incredibly shoddy, for example. Some better choreography and editing would have gone a long way to improve that fight. They've done a lot of things throughout the series that I've found completely baffling and nonsensical.

This episode wasn't one of those times, though. Even if it had a few problems. I don't know why so many were expecting Stannis to appear in this episode when he doesn't even appear at this point in the book.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Caerl Targaryen

[ServantOnIce]

I consider myself a "Stan Fan," I suppose because bookStannis is one of the very few major characters that has a genuine sense of dignity, justice, and honor. And, I think that it has to be admitted, even if one isn't a Stan Fan, that D&D have intentionally butchered the character, and for the lamest of reasons: that in order for the show to be "edgy" everyone has to be scummy/insane/murderous/immoral. So, we live in a cynical age, and I suppose our entertainment will be cynical as well.

But, it also has to be admitted that the episode last night was well-done -- not perfect, the books aren't perfect and neither is the show, but extremely well-done. The ending was a little jarring, with Jon walking off into the North, but it was some of the best action tv that has ever been done in my opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree.

"Come with me and Take this Wall!!!"

[Dany4eva]

Yeah. Totally thought the eagle we saw in the beginning would burst into flames by Melisandre at the ending ... They better not cut the eagle bursting into flames. :bang: :bang:

After seeing the eagle, I thought for sure we were gonna see some bad ass Mel burning :frown5: . Hopefully they keep it in epi 10

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Well. That episode was awesome. It featured 3 of the best kills in the series (hammer to the skull, chain turning wildlings to mist on the wall, and my favorite, the giant's arrow launching a nights watch member from the top of the wall and pinning him to castle black on the south side). All in all i thought it was a great episode. i totally understand having Jon and Ygritte come face to face for the show. No complaints at all, other than only one episode left.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words

Hail Edd

[echidna]

I really like what D&D are doing with the series. They have to deal with GRRM's very slow writing style and know they'll have to adapt an unwritten final book.

I think they're partially taking different paths so that we won't know what plot points are a final book spoiler and what's their invention.

Also, I like what they've done with Stannis from the point of view of showing his frustration with the situations he finds himself in. And how he appeared to be The Villain in season two because Disney fantasy movies have brainwashed us to believe anyone using blood magic is evillllll - especially if its the new King's uncle. (Insert cliche Evil Uncle laugh here.) Now, thanks to the atrocities of the Boltons, the Thenns and the Red Wedding etc, that cliche is being soundly squished

Edited June 9, 2014 by echidna

[Pearlthegirl]

He is not whining; his character has grown evolved even better in the books where he cowered much of the time. I enjoyed seeing Sam grow and show every man can be brave even scared shitless.

^^Like!

He saved the girl and the babe.

Looked for Intel.

Went for reinforcements(top of the Wall and Ghost)

Inspired a kid.

Had some great comic relief lines with both Jon and Pyp.

Held and comforted a dying Brother.

And killed an EFFIN Thenn!

Jeez, when did he have time to whine this epi?

[diaur]

Why no Stannis?????? Just what I was waiting for the whole episode, how are they gonna squeeze it all into the next episode? We've had enough of the Wall, I want the other storylines (Tywin + LS) to evolve...

[JaegrM]

Does anyone else wonder if they're merging Thorne's character with Marsh's ?

Marsh got wounded and became more cautious/fearful, could we see a changed Thorne next season?

[Gort]

Why no Stannis?????? Just what I was waiting for the whole episode, how are they gonna squeeze it all into the next episode? We've had enough of the Wall, I want the other storylines (Tywin + LS) to evolve...

To be fair, they'd have had less room to squeeze him in this episode. Rather than panic now, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and wait a week, then panic. Still, even then there is a narrative problem with having Stannis come and save the day.

[sj4iy]

Think the buildup for the episode being weak was mainly due to the fact that season 3 and 4 were split.

Imagine a Jon snow season with

ep 1-2 jon/mance interaction

ep 4 scaling the wall

ep 6-7 - betraying the wildings

ep 9 - battle at castle black

same can be said for arya/stannis/bran

A lot of people suffered from the season split but it was neccesary to include a lot of moments.

next season will be the complete opposite.

Dunno how you get all of that into one season and still have room for all of the other people that needed to be in there, too.

[nara]

I don't know why, but the deaths of the two giants bothered me much more that it should have D:

Damn, I really feel sad about their deaths....

The other giant was visibly pissed when his buddy got shot...that's why he stormed the gate.

I really liked the younger giant's reaction to the other one's death. I felt for him...

Looks like Val will not be cast and Tormund will replace her.

If there's one thing that D&D won't sacrifice, it's an attractive young woman who flirts with Jon! They are more likely to invent reasons to get her naked. However, she may not play the same role as she did in the books, which is a pity.

Jon Snow (Kit anyways) has become an absolute beast with that sword. He brought down 4 blows from different directions onto Styr's axe in under 2 seconds, and he looked good doing it. I don't know what happened, he has improved X10. Id say Kit looks to be one of the top 5 sword handlers on the show at this point.

Did he have to use a sword in that Pompeii movie? Perhaps the movie budget allowed for a great trainer.

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

If there's one thing that D&D won't sacrifice, it's an attractive young woman who flirts with Jon!

You don't think they're going to use Mel for that? I can see it coming a mile off.

[nara]

You don't think they're going to use Mel for that? I can see it coming a mile off.

Oh, definitely--she does so in the books too. Mel is totally going to do the seduction thing with Jon. However, she can't be a serious love interest for him.

[Skeksi]

Well... my reactions to this episode were a very mixed bag.

Firstly, might as well get the obvious out of the way, I was not happy with a lack of Stannis in this episode. I assumed (apparently wrongly) that this episode would end with Stannis "riding to the rescue", so to speak, as all seemed lost- a kind of "positive cliffhanger" to end the episode with. As it is, it felt like the ending really trailed off a bit. The next episode is going to be really packed in now to finish all the arcs for the season, even if we assume that some characters are already done (I'm assuming Darth Sansa and Petyr won't show up again this season, and that we won't see any more of Ramsay and Reek, but I could be wrong on both counts), there's now another battle scene, and Jon and Mance's meeting, and Jon's election, we know there's still quite a lot of KL stuff to go too, plus tying up storylines for Bran, Arya and Dany. It seems like episode 10 could be very overstuffed, when a big part of the wall storyline could have fitted into this episode.

It was a shame to see Grenn and Pyp go, and the Ygritte death scene was done pretty well, but since this is probably the area of the show/ books I have the least interest in overall, it was a bit of a distant sadness for me. That's definitely a very subjective thing, though. I really, really enjoyed seeing Alliser Thorne get a chance to shine- he's a distinctly unpleasant person, and not well liked for a damn good reason, but he's also a brave, skilled fighter who'll do what he believes needs to be done, which is held up in stark contrast to Janos Slynt. Any scene with Dolorous Edd in it is a good scene for me, and his face when he was told he had the wall did not disappoint. If there's one thing to be said for an episode with so few "main" characters in it (you've got Jon, Sam, Ygritte, Tormund and Gilly in terms of characters who made it to the credits), then it's that it gave the supporting characters a chance to stand out more, and allowed the action to develop more than if it had been cutting away to other characters.

All that said... I still found it a bit anticlimactic. And that's possibly because of an overfocus on the Wall. I admit, as I said before, it's one of my least favourite plotlines and I find Jon Snow dull as dishwater, so I'm definitely biased. But I'm not sure it merited a full episode in the way that Blackwater did. Blackwater takes place at the end of S2, where King's Landing is basically THE main location, and Stannis is a major subplot. We saw Tyrion, Bronn and the Hound on the frontlines, we saw Cersei, Sansa and Shae in the palace waiting for the outcome, we saw Stannis and Davos in the oncoming ships, not to mention Joffrey, Varys, etc. There were a lot of major characters there, and it felt a bit more like it merited the focus of the whole episode. S4 has been a lot more spread out than S2, and the focus is certainly not as strongly on KL as it used to be, but it hasn't really been on the Wall this series, either, and there aren't nearly as many major characters there. Particularly for show only viewers, I'm wondering how popular this episode will prove.

To sum up:

- The episode was well done, but I feel they could have fitted more into it.

- Enjoyed the expansion of the role of supporting characters like Alliser Thorne and Edd.

- Given how many "big moments" remain in the series to tie up next episode, I worry that it's going to feel rushed.

- Think that Stannis's arrival when all seemed lost would have provided more of a "positive cliffhanger" kind of ending, as it was it fell a bit flat for me.

- Dramatic though it was, I'm not sure the battle at the Wall merited it's own "sole focus" episode.