[Book Spoilers] EP409 Discussion

[Thormund Giantsbabe]

Don't you guys think it kind of sucked how Jonas Flynt(??) and Allister Thorne were there? In the books, I thought that the fact that Jon had the wall really meant a lot, but here he's just listening to these two idiots...

[SerArthurHeath]

Not really, no

[NigNag]

it's brilliant how we Stannis fans get reality a little twisted for our Great King and Hero.. i mean in our minds his arrival happened thus:

Mance and his Wildlings had ALL the crows on the North side of the Wall, bound and gagged and on their knees (all lined up). Mance raised his arm and the Wildlings standing over the men of the Nights Watch raised their Axes above their heads. Tormund raised the Horn to his lips and Jon realized that with one Toot the Wall would come crashing down. 5 Million Wildlings and 7 million White walkers were seconds away from crossing over and wiping out Westeros and the Realm of men. Just when Mance is about to drop his arm and give the Signal... STANNIS, STANNIS, STANNIS...

That's why we were so pissed he didnt turn up!!

The reality that Jon and Mance were chatting in the tent about this 'n' that and then STANNIS STANNIS STANNIS... doesn't really compute.

I really am a Stannis lover and want to be his squire and STANNIS STANNIS STANNIS was one of my 'feel good moments' but D&D have the right of it. I loved the episode and it was very well done! Bravo to all involved

[Cold Feet]

Laughable episode. Some cool moments like giant bow, Thorne and Chekov's kiddo, but overall very underwhelming. Bad CGI and non-sensical, Rambo style action (how many crows did Tormund and Ygritte kill between themselves? 50?) with lame choreography (the Thorne/Tormund fight was a complete embarassment). Most of the action cornerstones were either stupid or pointless (like, why would they drop that scythe on 6 people? Why would they use a mammoth to tear out the gate when they could've just lifted it and propped it with something? Why would Jon jump from 12 feet when he just got stabbed in the thigh a week earlier just to have a cool moment? Why did the wildling attack on the Wall consist of about 30 people at max? And so on and on and on).

How did those two idiots even get their ends on the books? The censorship department of the Chinese goverment would make a better job of adapting it than those two butchers. Whenever they put their hands on something and try to change it, it becomes a pure, stinking shit. Not to mention them killing Grenn and Pyp for no reason.

Inb4 Stannis genocides the wildlings next week, just after Mance and Jon reach a peaceful agreement of them crossing the Wall (this will take 2 minutes of screentime before it cuts to some glorious Daenerys/Tyrion stuff).

Wow, you whine like a bloody woman. Nit picking each and every fucking detail because it's not cool enough or it doesn't follow our laws of physics, wasn't real enough, and what have you

Please someone do fill me in: the bald one who fights with Jon isn't Rattlesnake? I do remember a few episodes back when he met up with Ygritte&co., he presented himslef with this name.

That was Styr, 'Magnar of Thenn'. The dude that said "I am going to eat your dead mama, and I am going to eat your dead momma, go tell the crows at Castle Black.." and the guy that Ygritte threatens at the beginning of the episode

Don't you guys think it kind of sucked how Jonas Flynt(??) and Allister Thorne were there? In the books, I thought that the fact that Jon had the wall really meant a lot, but here he's just listening to these two idiots...

... yeah...and? Alliser Thorne is still Lord Commander, still giving orders, & Jon still has to obey them. When Thorne puts Slynt in control, that means Jon has to obey his orders. Luckily Grenn thought of a way to get Slynts bitch ass to fuck off, thus, making Jon now in control.

Don't get me wrong, there were a few time in the Thorne/Tormund & Jon/Styr fights that the brothers had wide open shots (quick! But shots none the less) when the T & S had just swung with the weapon still over their shoulders, an easy gut thrust would have finished it for them. BUT this is only acting for a TV show, so as long as 80% is like real life, I'm totally fine with it.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Cold Feet

[ladybuc]

For a moment I was afraid they would let the Magnar of Thenn kill Slynt and not show the death he actually gets! That is one of the scenes I am dying to see! I hope they don't make any changes to it!

Duh, must have been sleeping. Of course it wasn't the Magnar. Tormund...

Feeling ignorant... :(

[Tattered_Prince]

So, it seems that Tormund will be the one to die instead of Rattleshirt...hope I'm wrong

[Chebyshov]

So, it seems that Tormund will be the one to die instead of Rattleshirt...hope I'm wrong

Who's going to become the titular leader of the Wildlings before Jon lets them through the Wall then?

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

So, it seems that Tormund will be the one to die instead of Rattleshirt...hope I'm wrong

They're probably going to skip that whole thing and just negotiate with Tormund rather than have Val go and fetch him (I'm guessing Val is cut). They might just altogether skip the glamour thing since it's kind of silly anyways, and on screen it would look really foolish if Mance just turns up after being burned and says "Oh yeh that wasn't me that burned lolz was a trick. Gotcha!"

[sj4iy]

Not being a shit, but is this a fair analogy? Stannis' big moment happened in the midst. LS's moment purposely happened at the very end.

Honestly, I can't think if any moment more shocking than Cat's return...even Tywin's death.

[sj4iy]

I'm a tad disapointed. Now I fear the next episode will either be rushed, or things will be left out. Like maybe Stannis coming will be an early season 5 thing? I wouldn't put it past them...hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion and Shae run off together, and tywin shakes his fist at them...but I digress, I'm setting the bar low for next week, in the hopes it'll surprise me, in a good way.

His coming is in the trailers for Season 4 and in the trailer for episode 10. They aren't leaving it out and never were.

[sj4iy]

I neither love nor hate Stannis. My critiques 'try' not to have to do with that:)

I'm the same way. I don't think he's a hero, but I don't think he's a villain, either. I try to just see him as he's portrayed and nothing else.

[sj4iy]

Ask yourself would D&D had that 3rd battle as the end if Dany saved the Wall?

Yes.

Are you serious? The entire point of ending it like they did had nothing to do with Stannis...they ended it that way to make Jon's mission seem absolutely hopeless and to make it look like the NW will fall soon. Showing ANYONE come in and save them would completely undermine that, and they didn't want to do that. It has absolutely nothing to with Stannis.

[Pallantides]

I wasn't sure where to post this, so I figured I'd share it here. I wrote a ballad for Grenn and the five men he took with him to hold the gate. The fact that he got a very heroic death unlike the majority of characters in the show is what spurred me to write this (and I liked his actor and I'm sad to see him go).


The watchers stood upon the wall,
Stewards and rangers are we;
On that day the wildings came,
They thought they'd be set free.

It could be said they had the strength.
To march upon us in such force.
They lit the biggest fire the North had ever seen;
They'd kill without remorse.

They advanced without relent,
Marching through arrows and more.
The outer gate was being breached,
When Grenn stepped to the fore.

I had to send him down to the tunnels.
I told him to hold the gate.
He took five men; Hyll, Cooper and three more
Hopefully it would not be too late.

The giant was getting through,
It charged like a raging boar.
He roared aloud with thunder,
We stand fast or we'll be no more.

He gleamed like a star
And the sound of his sword was like a raging storm
Proudly the ranger challenges the doom.
Vowing to slay this unkown life form.

They were the sword in the darkness and the watcher on the walls,
the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn.
The horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.
These six brave men passed on.

He held the gate.

[teej6]

Missed it. Now I see the director also quoting an email saying Blackwater was a tough act to follow and he did a good job. The director says GRRM loved it, was happy. Got it.

I seriously don't think GRRM wants to be the guy who proclaims episodes good or bad. He's let it go, it isn't his work. He responded to the rape controversy with his work only. He did not say anything about how he saw it played out. Using the public declarations of him or Elio or anyone else to decide on the legitimacy of someone else's opinion is IMHO an error.

That said I need to see it again but if I decide I liked Blackwater a lot better you all will just have to love me anyway. ;)

I posted the link in response to an earlier poster who called everyone who liked this episode as being tasteless. I don't make my judgement based on Elio's or GRRM's opinion and neither should anyone else.

[Sunglass]

Are you serious? The entire point of ending it like they did had nothing to do with Stannis...they ended it that way to make Jon's mission seem absolutely hopeless and to make it look like the NW will fall soon.

the preview shows that Jon Snow and the Wall will be saved ... :lmao:

Edited June 10, 2014 by Sunglass

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I adored the entire episode on the first viewing up until it became clear that Stannis would not be making an appearance, thus cramming up the finale and also slightly diminishing the impact of his arrival altogether. Although that might turn out to not be the case.

However on the second viewing, this is a truly fantastic episode. I can wax lyrical about the direction, the choreography, the editing and all the incredible effects to no end. i also remember being constantly in suspense from the first time we saw Joe Gatt's owl. Although that might have been down to some lingering PTSD from last week.

But it was the character moments that really stuck out for me. Sam guiding Pyp and Olly through the battle and death in the case of the former, whilst Janos Slynt cowered in that room where Sam downright refused to stay. Love is the death of duty.

I can't say enough about Grenn. You constantly see interviews with cast members being asked how they would like to die on the show. "The way Grenn died" is probably the correct answer now. A heroic, blaze of glory death for the greater good is not something we've seen a lot of on this show.

Then there's Jon and Ygritte. A little cheesy perhaps. But the infrequency of this sort of thing on this show make it feel somehow more real and incredibly emotional. I've always been a huge fan of Rose but this has been Kit's season in terms of acting and he absolutely nailed it again here and throughout the remainder of the episode.

Even feckin Tormund! You can hear the self-loathing and blame in his voice when he calls out at Jon.

Amidst all of it though, the character that I've grown to like the most is Ser Alliser. We talk about how Jorah, Tywin, Bronn etc are all improvements on their book counterparts. With Ser Alliser, the TV version is so far ahead it's unreal. Without going into too much detail, he encapsulates this 'grey' aspect as much as any character on the show or book. My own favourite character, Theon, included. So much props to Owen Teale.

Anyway I still just wish we had Stannis arriving to round it off and probably confirm it in my own mind as the best episode in the show's history. I hope they have something special up their sleeve for next week.

To the bolded, ITA, he's an amazing Alester (spelling? too tired to care) and I cannot say how much I resent the fact that this terrific actor actually made me pause and rewind on my first watch....just so I could be sure it was NW men dragging him off, LOL I can't believe I cared enough to do that. I do wonder if his injury means that Thorne may take some of the future Bowen Marsh duty. That would totally fuck up The Ides of Marsh, LOL

Grenn and the actor both are amazing and that makes me pissed that he had to take the Donal Noye death. Loosing both Pyp and Grenn when they still live in the books shows that the show has not developed enough of the minor characters up at The Wall. I'm still going to miss Jon and Tormund drinking to Ygritte and to Mag the Mighty and The One Armed Smith.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Lady Fevre Dream

[Lady Fevre Dream]

p.s. having said all of that, if Stannis doesn't get proper screentime next season, then i might start agreeing with D&D hate Stannis crew.

THIS!! I did hold out hope that it would be a better season for Stannis this year, not realizing how they'd delay lots of the Wall happenings. If it doesn't start getting rectified next episode and next season, I'm gonna have to go with......there's something to the hate theory.

Honeslty, part of me does think if Stannis wasn't still moving serious plot and armies in TWOW chapters, he might have already been killed off in the show. Eh, the cast is going to be mighty depopulated soon, and has been this year, maybe Stannis will get his chance, I hope so. I'm dying for the double straight man comedy team of Stannis and Jon. That is priceless.

[Yuki_no_JonI]

I wanted to quote a previous post but really can't find it... the post was about

I hope they don't mess with the actual way Slynt dies. I'm really looking forward to that

or something similar. Unfortunately, as much as I really want to watch this (and even enjoy it) I honestly believe that we are not going to have such a moment. For the time being, in the tv show every "good" or even just "debating" point Jon has (or every other character in the Wall) just has to be changed....

they're really f&()_*ing this arc (as well as Bran's)... and I don't think it's due to lack of screentime or cast....

so they will probably don't go along the beheading too :S

[Tattered_Prince]

They're probably going to skip that whole thing and just negotiate with Tormund rather than have Val go and fetch him (I'm guessing Val is cut). They might just altogether skip the glamour thing since it's kind of silly anyways, and on screen it would look really foolish if Mance just turns up after being burned and says "Oh yeh that wasn't me that burned lolz was a trick. Gotcha!"

The Wildlings must see Mance dead...but they will probably change alot of things at the wall, so we can only guess

Edited June 10, 2014 by Tattered_Prince

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I wanted to quote a previous post but really can't find it... the post was about

or something similar. Unfortunately, as much as I really want to watch this (and even enjoy it) I honestly believe that we are not going to have such a moment. For the time being, in the tv show every "good" or even just "debating" point Jon has (or every other character in the Wall) just has to be changed....

they're really f&()_*ing this arc (as well as Bran's)... and I don't think it's due to lack of screentime or cast....

so they will probably don't go along the beheading too :S

What are you talking about? Jon just shot Tormund in the leg and kicked him in the gut, a man who he was supposed to be aligned with once. Jon is much more outwardly outspoken against his superiors in the show. If anything it will be less surprising on the show than it was in the book. Slynt is also way more of a bitch on the show, and they would never shy from a beheading. If you're going to complain at least try to root it in some reality or logic.

The Wildlings must see Mance dead...but they will probably change alot of things at the wall, so we can only guess

Having him captured and defeated could work. All the free folk want is to get behind the wall and to safety, and while "killing" Mance does work better, it also creates more tension between the free folk and Stannis/NW. It's just way too campy to show them burning Mance on screen and then suddenly have him show up in a scene with Melissandre and say "Haha, you fooled you!" This isn't Scooby Doo.

Edited June 10, 2014 by DarkAndFullOfTurnips