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Has anyone thought... just for a second... that TV Stannis is kind of a dick, so that when he shows up at the Wall to save the realm from the wildlings, and then rallies the Northmen to his cause and heads to take Winterfell back from the Boltons, viewers will be surprised and start to root for him?

I know when I read the books, I didn't care for Stannis at all until he showed up at the Wall, as a true King should do when the realm is under attack. Then, when he marched south to take back Winterfell, I was all in.

The idea Stannis not being played up as a superhero so far on the show means he's going to just get killed early on in TWOW is laughable IMO, as is the notion that the show is butchering his character (when most of the things he does that make people like him haven't even happened in the story yet).

Agreed. It was hard to like for or root for Stannis until he came to the rescue of the Wall. I liked him the most when he gave the credit for it to Davos by saying that he wouldn't have come if Davos hadn't set him straight on the matter. "I was trying to win the throne to save the realm when I needed to save the realm to win the throne". Would love if they kept some version of that in when Stannis and Jon talk...oh man, I can't wait to see those talks next year, that will be so awesome. Until this episode, it would have been hard to imagine show Jon Snow being able to banter with Stannis on equal ground...but now? Hell yeah, Jon is now in his element and won't take shit from anyone XD Also can't wait for Jon's interaction with Melisandre. Don't guess we'll get Davos at the Wall for very long, though.

Edited by sj4iy
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My take was similar, and in fact I think that's kind of what GRRM is setting you up to do. Stannis is described multiple times from the beginning as being unlikeable, uncharismatic, etc., but duty-bound.



Well, having somebody described as "duty-bound" isn't all that stirring, but then when you actually see him step up in a difficult situation to do his duty, that's a horse of a different kettle. I think everybody's respect for Stannis kind of starts, or is supposed to start, when he shows up at the Wall.



It's a real turning point for Stannis in the story. And it's just possible that, to the extent Stannis has been short-changed in the show (e.g., begging for a piece of that fine Red stuff), it was all for the purpose of setting him up for a more dramatic redemption - this Sunday.


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Saw episode just now. Brilliant! Moved to tears with Grenn, Pyp and Ygritte's death - And just realised I've been humming that bit of music since it must have appeared in season 3.. never knew where it was from till now!



No need for Stannis till next week. It would have completely stole Jon Snows thunder, and also cut his suicide mission.



Can't wait for next week. Loved the episode and noted how well directed it was. The action flowed naturally and "realistically".



UKS



P.S. I still don't get the Stannis fans. All the info we have on him really is through the POV of a lovely guy who thinks the sun shines out of his behind. Unreliable narrator perhaps? I


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Anecdotal for sure, but my non-reader wife kept saying "When is Stannis coming to the rescue?" during the whole battle. I asked her why she thought he was coming to bail out Jon and she mentioned the whole iron bank money and mercenary stuff from past episodes, so yeah people are getting it. Now that the battle is over and Jon is going to try to parlay with or kill Mance she thinks Stannis won't come. I can't wait until next week when he does rescue the wall and she'll probably say something like "I knew he would come to the rescue!" Haha


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I will disagree with you in regards to Stannis' arrival, though. In fact, I had to skip over 50 or so pages due to the same lame complaint of no Stannis. The Stannis fans want it all. They want him to be portrayed as he is in the books, yet fail to see any of his faults. They want the store to be like the books, yet complaint when he doesn't come to the rescue before he did in the books. As neither a Stannis fan, nor a Stannis hater, I want to see him get his due, which in my opinion the wall scene was perhaps his only shining moment in the series. To throw in a quick five minute rush job of him coming to the rescue would not have the effect that I hope the finale will have of him really saving the wall and shining a bright light on him. We'll see, but I think it will turn out better this way.

Just to address this, I don't think that Stannis should have turned up before Jon goes to kill Mance. I just think that all of the "battle" should have been in this episode- Jon going to Mance, their scene, and Stannis's arrival. They already changed the order around by bringing Ygritte and Tormund in for the "main battle", and having Ygritte die there, rather than in a smaller skirmish earlier on in the season, so it's not like the show (or I, come to that) has any issue with changing stuff around to keep the pace moving/ pack storylines into a season, if that's what is needed.

I think that in an episode where we have an awful lot of footage of people battling (brilliantly shot, great special effects, don't get me wrong), there would have been more than enough time to have Jon's scene with Mance, and Stannis's arrival at the end of the episode, had a few other scenes been cut shorter. It wouldn't NEED to be more than a 5 minute job, because all it has to end with are the wildlings beginning to attack the Wall, a larger force surrounding them/ fighting them, and men chanting "Stannis"- cut to quick shot of Stannis. I mean, at the end of Blackwater it didn't take more than 5 minutes to show Tywin and the Tyrells arriving, and Tywin to declare the battle won, leaving the next episode free to deal with the fallout.

As it is, this is now another scene that they have to add to the final episode, which is starting to look crowded. Unless they leave Jon's election as LC to next season, that's at least 2 big scenes on the Wall to fit in, including more battle. There's Tyrion's escape, and the murders in KL, and given that Tyrion is an audience favourite and Tywin's role is even larger in the books, I find it hard to believe that they're going to skimp on these scenes in order to make time back for the Wall. According to the promo for next week, there's a scene with Cersei, too. Bran and co. are arriving at the Children of the Forest, which, given the title of the episode, I would expect to be a fairly sizeable scene. There's tying up Arya and the Hound's storyline for the season- possibly with his death/ Arya leaving him behind. There's at least one scene with Dany. If you don't want Stannis's arrival to be a 5 minute rush job at the end of Episode 9, how much time do you honestly believe that his arrival is going to get in an episode where nearly every other major plotline requires tying up?

I mean, I am a Stannis fan, not going to lie, but by and large, I've been OK with him having a more reduced role in the series because of the time limits of TV, I just think that in this episode it takes the piss a bit to push one of Stannis's only major awesome bits into part-way through next episode, the main focus of which is going to be elsewhere, to replace it with Jon walking through a gate. And I think it's silly to have a whole episode dedicated to the Wall, and the battle with the wildlings, and take plenty of time to flesh out your side characters, and do long, beautiful battle sequences, which is fine and dandy, but then basically cut off the ending/ Act 3/ whatever you want to call it, of the sequence. I'm not going to stop watching the show or anything, and I didn't expect Stannis to be the focal point of this episode, but given that his appearance DOES bring the battle to an end, and it is a pretty major moment for his character, then yes, I was kind of expecting to see him.

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I feel geniunely sorry for everybody who rated these ep below 8, or who was somehow strongly dissapointed.

Every week I look forward next ep and every week I get top quality show which I can enjoy (with some small or bigger nitpicks here or there), and sometimes I get something extraordinary like this week. And apparently many of you watch the show week after week just to get more frustrated and angry because some line you love from the books was omitted or changed, some character was "butchered", episode was "anticlimactic", or there was "tons of filler" etc. I am not trying to mock you, I am just saying that no matter who is "right", I (and many others apparently) clearly get the better of it.

I know it won't help you, but here's the thing:

Season finale will not be as you hope/dream/wish. They will change a lot. I am pretty sure that something big you all expect will not happen at all, something will be changed. There will be scenes you don't expect at all.

So do yourself a favor. Stop counting that Stannis needs 15 minutes, Dany 5 minutes, Tyrion 15 minutes and so on. By doing this you are ALREADY frustrated because no, ep 410 won't last 75 minutes, it will last 66 minutes. You will not get it all. Accept it before the show airs, and you will not be dissapointed and nervous when they suddenly insert 3 minute scene which "shouldn't" be there. Your expectation is what ruins the show for you, not showrunners work.

The voice of reason
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Funny Stannis rant from another site:

Oh, sati…I actually have legitimate sympathy for fans like her on this occasion, as they were waiting for so long for Stannis to get his "Dawn of the Rohirrim" moment, and now it's going to be stuck into the first 15 minutes of the finale (in all likelihood).

Edited by Haldir Monark
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Lord Janos was a coward, his meltdown in ADWD leaves preciously little room for doubt (he had a similar one earlier when Tyrion went from "I'm a friendly imp" mode to "OK, and now off to the Wall with you"). He was essentially a courtier, not a warrior.

Ser Alliser? Well, he was an asshole and a lousy dance master, but I don't remember any hints of him being cravenly.

Their perceived friendship does look a little like a "we hate Jon Snow" club.

That's what i thought it was too.

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Just to address this, I don't think that Stannis should have turned up before Jon goes to kill Mance. I just think that all of the "battle" should have been in this episode- Jon going to Mance, their scene, and Stannis's arrival. They already changed the order around by bringing Ygritte and Tormund in for the "main battle", and having Ygritte die there, rather than in a smaller skirmish earlier on in the season, so it's not like the show (or I, come to that) has any issue with changing stuff around to keep the pace moving/ pack storylines into a season, if that's what is needed.

I think that in an episode where we have an awful lot of footage of people battling (brilliantly shot, great special effects, don't get me wrong), there would have been more than enough time to have Jon's scene with Mance, and Stannis's arrival at the end of the episode, had a few other scenes been cut shorter. It wouldn't NEED to be more than a 5 minute job, because all it has to end with are the wildlings beginning to attack the Wall, a larger force surrounding them/ fighting them, and men chanting "Stannis"- cut to quick shot of Stannis. I mean, at the end of Blackwater it didn't take more than 5 minutes to show Tywin and the Tyrells arriving, and Tywin to declare the battle won, leaving the next episode free to deal with the fallout.

As it is, this is now another scene that they have to add to the final episode, which is starting to look crowded. Unless they leave Jon's election as LC to next season, that's at least 2 big scenes on the Wall to fit in, including more battle. There's Tyrion's escape, and the murders in KL, and given that Tyrion is an audience favourite and Tywin's role is even larger in the books, I find it hard to believe that they're going to skimp on these scenes in order to make time back for the Wall. According to the promo for next week, there's a scene with Cersei, too. Bran and co. are arriving at the Children of the Forest, which, given the title of the episode, I would expect to be a fairly sizeable scene. There's tying up Arya and the Hound's storyline for the season- possibly with his death/ Arya leaving him behind. There's at least one scene with Dany. If you don't want Stannis's arrival to be a 5 minute rush job at the end of Episode 9, how much time do you honestly believe that his arrival is going to get in an episode where nearly every other major plotline requires tying up?

I mean, I am a Stannis fan, not going to lie, but by and large, I've been OK with him having a more reduced role in the series because of the time limits of TV, I just think that in this episode it takes the piss a bit to push one of Stannis's only major awesome bits into part-way through next episode, the main focus of which is going to be elsewhere, to replace it with Jon walking through a gate. And I think it's silly to have a whole episode dedicated to the Wall, and the battle with the wildlings, and take plenty of time to flesh out your side characters, and do long, beautiful battle sequences, which is fine and dandy, but then basically cut off the ending/ Act 3/ whatever you want to call it, of the sequence. I'm not going to stop watching the show or anything, and I didn't expect Stannis to be the focal point of this episode, but given that his appearance DOES bring the battle to an end, and it is a pretty major moment for his character, then yes, I was kind of expecting to see him.

I can see your point here, but I have to disagree with handling Stannis' saving the wall the same as Tywin saving KL. For one thing, I can't possible handle the "I told you D&D hate Stannis" fallout that would bring about. I know some on here think that it's all a conspiracy to make Stannis into this villain because they hate him and think he is a republican yada yada yada. I couldn't stand Stannis when I was reading the books until he came to the wall. Before then I just thought he was this butt hurt middle child that never got enough attention despite claiming to be this great warrior that lost every battle and constantly needed to be bailed out. After the wall is when I began to see Stannis as more than that and possibly a great leader. I'm starting to think he's back to being a sniveling whiny little bitch again after ADWD, but that's a topic for another debate. Anyway, I really think people should reserve judgment on how they handle Stannis' crowning moment until it actually happens rather than being pissed that it didn't already happen the way they wanted it to.

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Ser Alliser? Well, he was an asshole and a lousy dance master, but I don't remember any hints of him being cravenly.

Mormont thought him courageous (from AGOT): "Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing."

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Amen. In the books, the NW had been defending the wall for days before Stannis finally arrived. Granted, once the back-door pirates had been taken care of, defending the wall wasn't that bad, they were nonetheless exhausted and had done 90% of the work, only to have their victory taken away by the Late Lord Stannis.

Stannis will have his day next week; then we can have an entire season of him trying to get the NW to put him on the Iron Throne and fighting a bogged down land war in Asia The North.

That is not true, in the book, the NW repulsed Mance's first attack, but casualities of the wilding was not great (around 200-300), and as Mance told Jon, the first attack was just a probe, if NW do not yield, he would order attack on different location along the wall at the same time, and besides he had the Horn of Winter. So it was indeed Stannis's surprise attack save the wall

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I do laugh at book fans who complain about filler. //Descriptionsoffoodand400pagesoftravelogue.

A book doesn't have to fit into 60-minute episodes, 10 per season. Literally, the only constraint is whether you can keep your readers' attention. 24 million sales tends to indicate that the answer is yes, it can.

Any TV show or movie - even something like GOT which will run to 70-80 hours overall - has to condense, pick and choose to get the whole story in. That's why people get irked when plot strands appear that don't lead anywhere (Craster's is probably the major example). Everybody has little things they liked in the books that don't make it into the show, so it's only natural to rant "Craster's blah blah blah why couldn't they show X?"

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That is not true, in the book, the NW repulsed Mance's first attack, but casualities of the wilding was not great (around 200-300), and as Mance told Jon, the first attack was just a probe, if NW do not yield, he would order attack on different location along the wall at the same time, and besides he had the Horn of Winter. So it was indeed Stannis's surprise attack save the wall

THoW was a fake.

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A book doesn't have to fit into 60-minute episodes, 10 per season. Literally, the only constraint is whether you can keep your readers' attention. 24 million sales tends to indicate that the answer is yes, it can.

Any TV show or movie - even something like GOT which will run to 70-80 hours overall - has to condense, pick and choose to get the whole story in. That's why people get irked when plot strands appear that don't lead anywhere (Craster's is probably the major example). Everybody has little things they liked in the books that don't make it into the show, so it's only natural to rant "Craster's blah blah blah why couldn't they show X?"

Craster's Keep was more about characterization than plot line, but it was still necessary, for both Jon and Bran's characters. Without that, we don't see Jon become a capable leader (and a better fighter), and we don't see Bran choose his destiny. I think without that deviation, both characters fall flat. I think Locke could have been left out completely, but other than that, I thought it worked well.

Edited by sj4iy
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Craster's Keep was more about characterization than plot line, but it was still necessary, for both Jon and Bran's characters. Without that, we don't see Jon become a capable leader (and a better fighter), and we don't see Bran choose his destiny. I think without that deviation, both characters fall flat. I think Locke could have been left out completely, but other than that, I thought it worked well.

I agree. More than the actual episode at Craster's, the scenes leading up towards it (in episodes 3 and 4) were really strong and helped to turn Jon into a believable leader.

The more I think about it, the more I like how they structured the Wall storyline this season. Episodes 9 and 10 are the "meaty" storylines, but there was a nice character-based buil-up towards it, which is more apparent (and works better) when you bing watch all the season.

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Craster's Keep was more about characterization than plot line, but it was still necessary, for both Jon and Bran's characters. Without that, we don't see Jon become a capable leader (and a better fighter), and we don't see Bran choose his destiny. I think without that deviation, both characters fall flat. I think Locke could have been left out completely, but other than that, I thought it worked well.

I don't really agree with you, but in any case, that's not my point. Craster's is just an example; the point is that "filler" is a concept that applies to the book and the TV show in very different ways. There's no time- or page-limit on a book.

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P.S. I still don't get the Stannis fans. All the info we have on him really is through the POV of a lovely guy who thinks the sun shines out of his behind. Unreliable narrator perhaps? I

I'm a Stannis fan & if he gets 5 min that's fine bc it's 5 good minutes. If he waits til just the right moment to appear I prefer to wait as well

There is a floating population that can't believe something didn't meet their expectations one ep then it turns out fine if they'd just kept their pants on for a week or three. I just spritz some Xanax on the screen.

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