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Having seen the uploads on YouTube, and heard about what did and didn't happen, I offer this:



The series is screwing up.



This should have been a two-episode battle, starting in 8 and ending with Stannis' arrival in 9.



Ygritte should have died in a skirmish around 6 or 7.



I'm leery of Pyp and Grenn dying, but if this indicates they serve no real purpose in the books, I'll accept it.



Looks like Jon won't be getting elected Lord Commander this season. Maybe episode 2 next season, which is pushing it. Have to have enough time for Sam to get to the tropics for Aemon's funeral and the Fat Pink Mast (implied, of course).



Why are there only supposed to be 100 crows left at CB? Judging by what we saw, they should nearly all be dead. They should have gone with the book estimate of a thousand.



The issue of shooting stuff to the top of the Wall may have been dealt with properly: the one bolt that made it was from a giant's corssbow, equivalent to a ballista. Though I'm not sure even the largest ballista could reach - but it's a fudge any which way.


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The issue of shooting stuff to the top of the Wall may have been dealt with properly: the one bolt that made it was from a giant's corssbow, equivalent to a ballista. Though I'm not sure even the largest ballista could reach - but it's a fudge any which way.

I think theoretically a very large well constructed ballista could strike the top of the wall. There is some evidence of some ballista's having a range of 500 yards (1500 feet), so the top of wall? Sure, why not.

I'm leery of Pyp and Grenn dying, but if this indicates they serve no real purpose in the books, I'll accept it.

Was there any evidence in the books that Pyp or Grenn would have really significant role to play in the end game? For me, they were pure supporting players through and through. And both characters got to shine with some memorable moments before getting killed off.

I wasn't supra impressed by the episode, but if your going to spend and entire hour televising a battle, there needs to be some casualties of consequence for the Night's Watch. It was a completely logical choice for D&D to make and I can't fault them for it. There simply wasn't enough screen time to introduce another set of characters at the Wall to only have them dispatched 7 or 8 episodes later.

This should have been a two-episode battle, starting in 8 and ending with Stannis' arrival in 9.

Personally, I think this episode should have been episode 4 and ended with Stannis's arrival in episode 5. The Craster's Keep subplot was pointless and that momentum from that great moment between Ygritte and Jon last season was lost because of the long delay before their eventual meetup again.

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Having seen the uploads on YouTube, and heard about what did and didn't happen, I offer this:

The series is screwing up.

This should have been a two-episode battle, starting in 8 and ending with Stannis' arrival in 9.

Actually, it is- part one was this episode, part two is the next episode.

Ygritte should have died in a skirmish around 6 or 7.

That would be incredibly anticlimactic and nothing like the book- her death here was much more accurate.

Why are there only supposed to be 100 crows left at CB? Judging by what we saw, they should nearly all be dead. They should have gone with the book estimate of a thousand.

Several viewers counted on-screen deaths of the NWmen at about 30-50 people. So they lost about half of their men, it seems.

Edited by sj4iy
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I watched the show again from start to finish.



Pro's:


1. The music - tense and powerful. I loved the drums.


2. Sam coming out of himself more and more; he's strong enough to mentor his comrades and the young refugee boy.


3. Alliser Thorne! Who knew he could be such a charismatic badass.


4. Decent CGI on the mammoth and giants.


5. The giant thundering through the tunnel with just five scared Crows to stop him - awesome moments as Grenn takes the lead and fires up the troops in the sight of certain doom.


6. Ghost!


7. The looks exchanged between Ygritte and Jon - he's so happy that she didn't shoot him; he actually smiles. Some decent acting from both actors, conveying that Ygritte's love for Jon was stronger than her anger over his choosing the Night's Watch over the Wildlings. Naturally, she's fatally wounded seconds later.


8. Some good single fights from Alliser and Jon and their foes. But Grenn and his men were the baddest-asses of them all.


9. No scenes with gratuitous boobage or pouting Daenerys. (and for once, when Jon looked sulky, it was obvious that he had good reason not to smile)



Cons:


1. They could have shaved off a few minutes from the extensive Sam-in-love discussions, so the actual battle could be 3 or 4 minutes longer.


2. Tell me again why Mance/Wildings torched all that acreage? It looked like it was mostly forest, which would provide good cover for the Wildlings. Burning it all down would also kill off many forest animals which could have otherwise provided food for hungry Wildlings.


3. Ygritte fatally shoots poor Pyp; then does nothing while Sam presents a great target as he sits down and comforts the dying Pyp in his arms. Why didn't Ygritte kill Sam? (they could have shown her distracted by a Crow actually engaging her in combat or shooting at her so she has to move to escape)


4. Jon and co. up on the Wall, seem to look down on the approaching giant and mammoth (with ropes, grappling hook-thingies, etc.) for several minutes before it occurs to Jon to order his men to throw down the barrel at them. Why did he wait? If he'd thrown it down (and also shot arrows) a few minutes earlier, he could have killed or crippled both mammoth and giant and burned the ropes and grappling hook thingummy), thus preventing the breaking of the outer gate, or at least tried! That made no sense to me.


5. I know that Jon is saddened by Ygritte's death, but does it make any sense at all for him to head out to try to penetrate a force of thousands of Wildlings to assasinate Mance with no sword and apparently no other weapon either? Seriously, he couldn't have mentioned to Sam that he had a dagger or knife or something. It would have made more sense to send Gilly to do the deed; she at least has the smarts to use whatever's handy (frozen leg of something) as a weapon. Jon's dramatic exit at the end of the sequel seemed as much a decision to commit suicide as it did seizing on a desperate tactic to try to save what was left of Castle Black and his brothers.



Overall, a fairly good episode, but it was no Blackwater.


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5. I know that Jon is saddened by Ygritte's death, but does it make any sense at all for him to head out to try to penetrate a force of thousands of Wildlings to assasinate Mance with no sword and apparently no other weapon either? Seriously, he couldn't have mentioned to Sam that he had a dagger or knife or something. It would have made more sense to send Gilly to do the deed; she at least has the smarts to use whatever's handy (frozen leg of something) as a weapon. Jon's dramatic exit at the end of the sequel seemed as much a decision to commit suicide as it did seizing on a desperate tactic to try to save what was left of Castle Black and his brothers.

He's going under the guise of parley...he can't take weapons with him because he would get killed immediately. By pretending to negotiate a truce, he can get close to Mance.

In the book he is sent to kill Mance under the guise of parley...here, he makes the decision to do it himself.

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I wanted to quote a previous post but really can't find it... the post was about

or something similar. Unfortunately, as much as I really want to watch this (and even enjoy it) I honestly believe that we are not going to have such a moment. For the time being, in the tv show every "good" or even just "debating" point Jon has (or every other character in the Wall) just has to be changed....

they're really f&()_*ing this arc (as well as Bran's)... and I don't think it's due to lack of screentime or cast....

so they will probably don't go along the beheading too :S

Honestly, I think his arc is better on the show than in the book because he's more believable as a leader, and it's more believable that he will get elected LC.

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Honestly, I think his arc is better on the show than in the book because he's more believable as a leader, and it's more believable that he will get elected LC.

How is he more believable as a leader on the show? He didn't organize the defense and simply followed Ser Alliser's orders.

He ordered some arrows to be fired and some oil to be dropped, all while letting a mammoth and two giants attach chains to the main gate. Only after the chains are attached and the mammoth starts walking away from the gate does he have anyone do anything about it. If he had had oil dropped as soon as they got close, both giants, all of the wildlings, and the mammoth would have been killed and he wouldn't have lost 6 men to the giant in the tunnel. If wildlings are approaching the gate with giants and a mammoth, you don't wait to see what they might do. They want to bring down the gate. So you kill them ASAP.

After he has some arrows fired, he heads down off the wall, kills a few wildlings, and decides to go on a suicide mission without clearly leaving anyone in charge. And that's just this episode.

That's not good leadership material.

Edited by Caerl Targaryen
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How is he more believable as a leader on the show? He didn't organize the defense and simply followed Ser Alliser's orders.

He ordered some arrows to be fired and some oil to be dropped, all while letting a mammoth and two giants attach chains to the main gate. Only after the chains are attached and the mammoth starts walking away from the gate does he have anyone do anything about it. If he had had oil dropped as soon as they got close, both giants, all of the wildlings, and the mammoth would have been killed and he wouldn't have lost 6 men to the giant in the tunnel. If wildlings are approaching the gate with giants and a mammoth, you don't wait to see what they might do. They want to bring down the gate. So you kill them ASAP.

After he has some arrows fired, he heads down off the wall, kills a few wildlings, and decides to go on a suicide mission without clearly leaving anyone in charge. And that's just this episode.

That's not good leadership material.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

I know very little about weapons and military strategy, but I couldn't understand why Jon wasn't throwing everything his up-top crew had at the giant & mammoth & equipment as they approached the gate, rather than waiting until the giant was affixing the grapplehook thingy to the gate. It made no sense to me. :bang: The directors could have made it more believable by having the giant shooting one of those monster bows upwards while the normal-sized wildlings pulled the mammoth to the gate and hitched him to it.

Edited by Raksha 2014
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The big boss of this site and right hand of GRRM Elio has give this episode 10/10



GRRM LOVES THIS EPISODE



“He’d just watched it as well for the first time and he loved it. That’s the best one to get. If George is happy, all right.”



http://www.wetpaint.com/game-of-thrones/articles/2014-06-10-george-r-r-martin-loves



The producers, GRRM and Elio know the ending



Jon is important ; Stannis not



no one normal likes religious fanatics like him



:bang: :bang: :bang:


Edited by WildlingButcher
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I don't think so. Sam's interpretation is "novel."

But while they consider sex to be against the rules, it's the kind of violation that is treated with a nod and a wink. Numerous black brothers visit the brothels in Mole's Town regularly - I mean why do you think they even have multiple brothels in Mole's Town?

In the books, most of Mole's Town is subterranean, and the crows call visiting the brothels "digging for buried treasure." Brothers visiting Mole's Town are known as "miners."

Nothing 'novel' about it, from what Jeor Mormont says in season 1 what the NW does sexually has been in place for 8000 years! If the Oath has been in place for 8000 years.

Elsewise what the hell is it?

Seems the Oath does not prohibit homosexuality or five fingered Mary.

So with out Sam's obvious analysis it's been going on , defacto, forever!

Actually , on this forum, the whole issue has been raised many times, a celibate army, really?!

The Spartans, Roman Army, the Mongol armies and all other fearsome military were not and were effective. George's alternate universe Earth has some magic, some of which may be faked, some of it delusional, some may be real (what ever the hell real 'magic' is , outside the metaphorical kind) and dragons, a few other fantasy trimmings, but all else is just flat Earth-like, including most biology.

I can see not keeping a family for economic reasons. (Economics was the root cause of the imposition of celibacy in the Catholic Church, which did ban priests from marriage until 1022.)

GRRM even has an emasculated slave army, I don't think , in this world, there has ever been an effective 'slave' army (in the literal sense, one could quibble about what being in an army and being a slave means)... however I will give GRRM a slave army, but 'emasculated' , I know what kind of psychological condition he is trying to create, and maybe the physiology of PLANETOS is wildly different, but even eunuchs in this world , due to lack of testosterone have less bone growth, small bodies but more body mass and are passive and less aggressive, just the opposite things you want in a soldier!

The cases in this world are very rare.

If George wanted to really put in a square wave an army of 10,000 slave women would have been a nice touch!

An Amazon army.

Edited by boojam
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In my head cannon, the reason the cooks were skulking around in the kitchens rather than out fighting is that they're the medical team. The guy stalking stalking out of the other room with a cleaver probably had been performing surgeries on wounded nights watchmen. The boiling water was to clean out wounds.


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In my head cannon, the reason the cooks were skulking around in the kitchens rather than out fighting is that they're the medical team. The guy stalking stalking out of the other room with a cleaver probably had been performing surgeries on wounded nights watchmen. The boiling water was to clean out wounds.

In the book Maester Aemon was the attending ER doctor during the battles, we don't see him doing any of this , but then there was no time.

Always puzzled me everybody that needed a Maester during a battle or fight or whatever in the book probably could not find one in a 100 miles.

But then I don't know how it was done in the 15th century anyway, you did what you could , some recovered, most died of infections.

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GRRM even has an emasculated slave army, I don't think , in this world, there has ever been an effective 'slave' army (in the literal sense, one could quibble about what being in an army and being a slave means)... however I will give GRRM a slave army, but 'emasculated' , I know what kind of psychological condition he is trying to create, and maybe the physiology of PLANETOS is wildly different, but even eunuchs in this world , due to lack of testosterone have less bone growth, small bodies but more body mass and are passive and less aggressive, just the opposite things you want in a soldier!

The cases in this world are very rare.

If George wanted to really put in a square wave an army of 10,000 slave women would have been a nice touch!

An Amazon army.

Well, elite slave armies like the Ottoman janissaries and the Safavid qizilbash were pretty effective for the most part; but the lack of testosterone is a major plot hole that doesn't make much sense. Suspension of disbelief, I guess.

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Having seen the uploads on YouTube, and heard about what did and didn't happen, I offer this:

The series is screwing up.

This should have been a two-episode battle, starting in 8 and ending with Stannis' arrival in 9.

Ygritte should have died in a skirmish around 6 or 7.

I'm leery of Pyp and Grenn dying, but if this indicates they serve no real purpose in the books, I'll accept it.

Looks like Jon won't be getting elected Lord Commander this season. Maybe episode 2 next season, which is pushing it. Have to have enough time for Sam to get to the tropics for Aemon's funeral and the Fat Pink Mast (implied, of course).

Why are there only supposed to be 100 crows left at CB? Judging by what we saw, they should nearly all be dead. They should have gone with the book estimate of a thousand.

The issue of shooting stuff to the top of the Wall may have been dealt with properly: the one bolt that made it was from a giant's corssbow, equivalent to a ballista. Though I'm not sure even the largest ballista could reach - but it's a fudge any which way.

Wait a minute. So you didn't actually watch the show, but rather clips on youtube and read discussion here? Ah that really does make you some kind of authority on this episode eh? You're the kind of audience that no one should take seriously and whose comments should be ignored out of hand. Even the show writers, if they cared what the audience had to say post episodes, wouldn't give a shite about anything you had to say because you aren't even a customer at this point. So just do everyone a favor and disappear.

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I watched the show again from start to finish.

Cons:

1. They could have shaved off a few minutes from the extensive Sam-in-love discussions, so the actual battle could be 3 or 4 minutes longer.

2. Tell me again why Mance/Wildings torched all that acreage? It looked like it was mostly forest, which would provide good cover for the Wildlings. Burning it all down would also kill off many forest animals which could have otherwise provided food for hungry Wildlings.

3. Ygritte fatally shoots poor Pyp; then does nothing while Sam presents a great target as he sits down and comforts the dying Pyp in his arms. Why didn't Ygritte kill Sam? (they could have shown her distracted by a Crow actually engaging her in combat or shooting at her so she has to move to escape)

4. Jon and co. up on the Wall, seem to look down on the approaching giant and mammoth (with ropes, grappling hook-thingies, etc.) for several minutes before it occurs to Jon to order his men to throw down the barrel at them. Why did he wait? If he'd thrown it down (and also shot arrows) a few minutes earlier, he could have killed or crippled both mammoth and giant and burned the ropes and grappling hook thingummy), thus preventing the breaking of the outer gate, or at least tried! That made no sense to me.

5. I know that Jon is saddened by Ygritte's death, but does it make any sense at all for him to head out to try to penetrate a force of thousands of Wildlings to assasinate Mance with no sword and apparently no other weapon either? Seriously, he couldn't have mentioned to Sam that he had a dagger or knife or something. It would have made more sense to send Gilly to do the deed; she at least has the smarts to use whatever's handy (frozen leg of something) as a weapon. Jon's dramatic exit at the end of the sequel seemed as much a decision to commit suicide as it did seizing on a desperate tactic to try to save what was left of Castle Black and his brothers.

Overall, a fairly good episode, but it was no Blackwater.

1. Did the battle need to be 3-4 minutes longer? What would more minutes gain us that the battle we had didn't?

2. I don't know why Mance did that other than to make a signal and perhaps scare the shit out of the wall. Maybe there were no animals left in that part of the woods. That could explain what took so friggin long to build the fire in the first place. I mean the advanced Tormund party had plenty of time to scale the wall and pillage the villages south of the wall while Jon had time to carry out the Craster's Keep raid. What was Mance doing all that time?

3. I think you weren't paying attention to the whole scene there. Did you not notice that Sam and Pyp kept popping up from cover to fire and then go back down? Pyp was hit on the way up, while Sam took care of him behind cover.

4. My guess is that they only had so many barrels and the best effect would be to hit them with the burning barrels while the mammoth was chained to the gait. Better chance of more casualties that way. No one would have know that the giant would be so angered by the loss of his friend(mate?) that he could lift the gate alone. Or perhaps it's a really long way down and hard to see details.

5. Someone else covered this well, but I'll just add that we don't know for sure if he intends to suicide kill Mance just because he says so to Sam. Perhaps he feels like he is the only one who can parley with Mance since he knows him (ordered to in the books). So he'll try to get Mance to agree to some sort of truce, by time for the wall to recoup their losses, and try to assassinate Mance if all else fails. It's a desperate play no doubt, but as he says the will all die either way so it's a chance worth taking.

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