rmholt Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Well........wait, if you don't care not to be rude.......I guess it was a wasted attempt at just polite conversation? You're hard on people. I didn't notice who you were. Please excuse me from further conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 (edited) i can't really figure out why they felt the need to completely rewrite this part of the story. Ok so they wanted the southern attack on the wall at the same time as Mance's attack from the north. No real problem there. I remember when reading about Snow having to go out to kill Mance what a suicide mission it was. Thorne and Slynt had him screwed. In the show him just choosing this as the best path shows how unprepared he is to be LC. What's a better plan? They have no hope of help coming, they have maybe about 50-60 men left to fight (including the injured), they don't have time to seal the tunnel before the next assault begins, and with all of the Mammoths and Giants (who are able to shoot people off the top of the Wall), they have no real hope of defending the gate for more than one or two days. He's not taking Ghost with him because he knows he's going to die and he doesn't want Ghost to die...he's not taking weapons with him because he's going to pretend to parley, and they would take his weapons from him before he ever got to Mance- he already stated he didn't want to lose Longclaw again. If he can kill Mance, however unlikely his chances at doing so, then the Wildlings would scatter, because he's the only one holding them all together. If he doesn't go, then everyone dies once the gate is broken and the Wildlings break through. Jon's plan may only give them a 1% chance of survival, but they have none if he doesn't go. So really, for everyone who has criticized Jon's plan, what's a better one? Edited June 15, 2014 by sj4iy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerl Targaryen Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Actually defend the Wall and not go get himself killed because Ygritte died in front of him? This is a problem they created for themselves on the show. If they had just stuck to the events of the book it wouldn't have even been a problem. So now they're going to have to course correct for yet another unnecessary change.I can't figure out why they felt the need to change one of Jon's defining moments. This episode was more about Sam coming into his own than it was about Jon becoming a leader. It's completely baffling to me why they chose to do that.I still haven't read an explanation regarding how he's demonstrated better leadership skills on the show. I actually want to know why some think that's the case. I'm just not seeing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 116 minutes today via GRRMlivejournal Awesome. Get some oxygen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerl Targaryen Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 (edited) Wow. 116 minutes? I thought it was only going to be 66 minutes. Edited June 15, 2014 by Caerl Targaryen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 (edited) 116 minutes today via GRRMlivejournal Awesome. Get some oxygen. Or a typo by GRRM ha ha Unreliable Not A Blogger. Twitter Westeros says 66 Edited June 15, 2014 by rmholt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerl Targaryen Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Definitely a typo I think. Every source I've found says 66 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roxWolfox Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 (edited) This is a very entertaining take on the Jon Snow/Styr fight! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLV5SXlzW-k :cheers: I love those lightsaber vids! This one does top the Ned/Jaime fight. :lol: I think there are more on Best Lines and Kills Threads. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/111825-best-lines-and-kills-of-409/ They start on the 7th page from what I can tell. Edited June 15, 2014 by Wolfox6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7th-key Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I still haven't read an explanation regarding how he's demonstrated better leadership skills on the show. I actually want to know why some think that's the case. I'm just not seeing it. Apparently, boss fighting skills = leadership skills. Show's own Craster's story made Jon grow: he learned to spit -- he can now become lord commander! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maid So Fair Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Actually defend the Wall and not go get himself killed because Ygritte died in front of him? This is a problem they created for themselves on the show. If they had just stuck to the events of the book it wouldn't have even been a problem. So now they're going to have to course correct for yet another unnecessary change. That's only a good plan if you know that Stannis-ex-machina is coming to their rescue otherwise it is just delaying the inevitable. I think the reason they changed it is because at this point it would just not be believable for Thorne/Slynt to be able to force Jon to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold I'm Sold Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Exactly Snow should stay and lead his men against impossible odds. Isn't that basically the job of the Night's Watch? When rangers go North of the wall isn't it a near suicide mission from the get go? Whoever leads each ranging north is always in this position. They still have to maintain leadership over their men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) Actually defend the Wall and not go get himself killed because Ygritte died in front of him? This is a problem they created for themselves on the show. If they had just stuck to the events of the book it wouldn't have even been a problem. So now they're going to have to course correct for yet another unnecessary change.I can't figure out why they felt the need to change one of Jon's defining moments. This episode was more about Sam coming into his own than it was about Jon becoming a leader. It's completely baffling to me why they chose to do that.I still haven't read an explanation regarding how he's demonstrated better leadership skills on the show. I actually want to know why some think that's the case. I'm just not seeing it. How did Jon prove his leadership in the books? Oh, that's right, he didn't. He was inexplicably given command of the Wall shortly after coming back from the enemy's camp all while being very badly injured and unable to walk. Then he was thrown into the ice cells to die by the leaders of the NW, only then to be sent on a suicide mission against his will when Maester Aemon wouldn't allow the leaders to kill him outright. Then Stannis swoops in and saves everyone; and everyone, despite the fact that Jon was never given any sort of trial to prove his innocence, and despite the fact that there were people who still thought he was a traitor, elect him by over a 2/3rds majority as their new leader over much more qualified, older men who didn't have any blemishes on their resumés. So yeah, tell me how scenes like Jon standing trial (and being exonerated), teaching others how to fight the Wildlings, volunteering to lead a dangerous mission to take care of the mutineers who killed the previous LC, taking command of the Wall when it was abandoned by his superior officer, going down to lead the fight below after his other superior officer fell, and then deciding to go on a kamikaze mission as a last ditch effort to save the NW, do less to prove Jon's leadership abilities than how it was done in the books. I love those chapters in the book- in fact, they are the chapters I tend to reread most because I like them so much. But I'm not blind to the fact that Martin made Jon LC simply because he needed him to be LC- and despite the fact that it really didn't make much sense for Jon to be elected like he was so soon after he came back from enemy territory. I think the show did a much more believable progression of events, and while the execution may not have always been top notch, it's very, very plain for anyone to see that Jon is LC material. Edited June 16, 2014 by sj4iy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 How did Jon prove his leadership in the books? Oh, that's right, he didn't. He was inexplicably given command of the Wall shortly after coming back from the enemy's camp all while being very badly injured and unable to walk. Then he was thrown into the ice cells to die by the leaders of the NW, only then to be sent on a suicide mission against his will when Maester Aemon wouldn't allow the leaders to kill him outright. Then Stannis swoops in and saves everyone; and everyone, despite the fact that Jon was never given any sort of trial to prove his innocence, and despite the fact that there were people who still thought he was a traitor, elect him by over a 2/3rds majority as their new leader over much more qualified, older men who didn't have any blemishes on their resumés. So yeah, tell me how scenes like Jon standing trial (and being exonerated), teaching others how to fight the Wildlings, volunteering to lead a dangerous mission to take care of the mutineers who killed the previous LC, taking command of the Wall when it was abandoned by his superior officer, going down to lead the fight below after his other superior officer fell, and then deciding to go on a kamikaze mission as a last ditch effort to save the NW, do less to prove Jon's leadership abilities than how it was done in the books. I love those chapters in the book- in fact, they are the chapters I tend to reread most because I like them so much. But I'm not blind to the fact that Martin made Jon LC simply because he needed him to be LC- and despite the fact that it really didn't make much sense for Jon to be elected like he was so soon after he came back from enemy territory. I think the show did a much more believable progression of events, and while the execution may not have always been top notch, it's very, very plain for anyone to see that Jon is LC material.It wasn't that inexplicable given the state of the NW, which Martin had well established was not good and populated with petty grievances at the top, like between Cotter Pyke & Bowen Marsh and between Ser Alliser & almost everyone.You make good points regarding Jon showing leadership qualities in the show but you're wrong to suggest that it didn't make sense in the book. Most people are reasonably convinced of Jon's innocence through the fact that he warned them of the impending attack and led the Watch in defending the wall against said attack. The only reason it persists is because of Thorne and Slynt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerl Targaryen Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Apparently, boss fighting skills = leadership skills.Show's own Craster's story made Jon grow: he learned to spit -- he can now become lord commander!Oh that's true. I forgot he leveled up during that storyline and now has a +5 Longclaw and a near perfect spitting ability! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmavridis Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I did not mind the changes, but showing Thorne as a hero fighting in first lines and showing Slynt as a coward (even if he is a pompous smart-ass) was not something I liked in this episode. Also Stannis should have come in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Harbors Wrath Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Don't see that anyones posted this...but this is how it should have ended. They certainly had the time with that short episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k7QWm4pa8s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Moff Mithrandir Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 They really didn't have to make Slynt out to be that much of a coward, overdid it IMO.I don't like the decisions to kill off Pyp and Grenn, although Grenn's death was badass to the core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) Don't see that anyones posted this...but this is how it should have ended. They certainly had the time with that short episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k7QWm4pa8s I thought they ended it correctly. Adding Stannis completely undermines the point of the episode, which is that these men are alone and desperate, with no hope of any help- yet they fight bravely and valiantly, even though they have nothing to gain from it. Stannis didn't need to be there, and I'm glad they made the choice they did to end it where they did. Edited June 21, 2014 by sj4iy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Harbors Wrath Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 They still did all that even with Stannis showing up. Them waiting a week to show them saving the NWs ass 10 minutes after Jon left the gate didn't do anything but suffocate 4.10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 They still did all that even with Stannis showing up. Them waiting a week to show them saving the NWs ass 10 minutes after Jon left the gate didn't do anything but suffocate 4.10. No, it didn't. Even in the books, Stannis doesn't show up immediately. It takes him what, 4 chapters? But sure, let's cram all that in episode 4.9 where it doesn't fit thematically or dramatically because some people want it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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