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I agree with this. Now its just being shoe horned into an already jam packed finale

That's what I'm worried about... I thought "Oh they're not showing the actors' (Stannis, Melisandre etc.) names in the opening credits to keep it a surprise" but no... I know the finale is 60+ minutes or something but I'm having trouble believing so many events can take place at a reasonable pace even with the additional ten minutes, give or take.

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So, they should have taken away from some Sam character development for the sole purpose of having Stannis ride in and save the day? Which would have completely undermined the awesomeness that was a few NW men holding the wall against poor odds?

Yeah.. great idea...

But that's what happens- almost exactly - in the books. The battle for the Wall is nearing an inescapable conclusion with the NW running out of men. The book managed to have that drama and horror AND still have room for Stannis and it all made perfect sense and NOBODY felt that the Wall's struggle was somehow cheapened by Stannis.

And I think you are confusing "Sam's Character Development" with "Scenes that Have Sam in Them." I think Sam developed as a character beyond the Wall and they could have had Sam's development without resorting to cliches and a labored scene with Maester Aemon. Sam's development came mostly with Pyp- pyp opening the gate, then at the front Wall and then with Pyp dying. Sam rose to the occasion in all of that. You could have trimmed a lot of the fat with Aemon and then with the scenes with Gilly and then with that terrible scene at the end and have a lot of time to spare. And you would not needed to sacrifice ANY of Sam's "development" (which, I maintain, was done better in prior episodes).

I really dislike the ending because its a silly cliffhanger that is utterly unnecessary and banal. What? Did the show-runners think "Jesus, we may not get a big audience for the finale! Better leave them wanting more."

And it leaves me with a dreaded feeling: that the show-runners are going to make a new scene beyond the Wall - maybe akin to the satire that another poster had before, where Jon and Mance make a truce and just as they are about to make peace, Stannis comes in and kills people. While that may seem silly, its would be in line with other ways they have undercut their most reviled character. Also, it has a sincere threat of getting list in an episode that will have enough going on already.

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The next episode will be too full to make any sense. I hope they're not going to include any Vale-stuff. One episode would have been enough to handle this battle, I'm very disappointed DnD. I was waiting the whole episode for Stannis to make a badass entry. But no.. sigh..


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That's what I'm worried about... I thought "Oh they're not showing the actors' (Stannis, Melisandre etc.) names in the opening credits to keep it a surprise" but no... I know the finale is 60+ minutes or something but I'm having trouble believing so many events can take place at a reasonable pace even with the additional ten minutes, give or take.

3 mins for Jon and Mance "debate" 2min for the 5 horses riding down the wildlings and to show some stannis banners

and you know, I wish people would actually debate the arguments presented instead of making up some straw arguments so they can feel all smug about shooting down opinions no one ever used

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The next episode will be too full to make any sense. I hope they're not going to include any Vale-stuff. One episode would have been enough to handle this battle, I'm very disappointed DnD. I was waiting the whole episode for Stannis to make a badass entry. But no.. sigh..

That's the problem with the episode, in and of itself, there is nothing wrong with it, except that there is only one more episode to cram in a huge amount of stuff, including the penultimate Stannis event.

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This episode kicked ass. Thorne is so fucking awesome. That actor is perfect, the loveable asshole. Grenn went out like a boss, sad to see him go, but the Aurochs showed his strength, Ollisatin with the snipe on Ginger Legolas cathartic. Next up Stannis is going to kick the shit out of Mance. The duels were great, the sets were fucking brilliant. Anybody hating on this episode either doesn't like action (Which is fine) or have some kind of weird mental block when it comes to rationality on characters and time limits.



Aka three of my friends who said this episode sucked because there was no Dany :crying:


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Sam is getting some great lines tonight.

Pyp: "Sam, I think we're all going to die"

Sam: "We will if you keep missing"

This and when Pyp said "I got one!" Sam was like "oh thats nice, is the war over?"

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I cant wait for 2 minutes of Stannis and the final 15 minutes being Dany crowd surfing slaves while a dragon screeches. Again.

Count on Dany getting more time than the Wall.

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I cant wait for 2 minutes of Stannis and the final 15 minutes being Dany crowd surfing slaves while a dragon screeches. Again.

I bet a 2 second shot of Stannis' face will do for D&D and ofcourse those 1 mins 58 seconds go to Dany.

Edited by Stan the Man Baratheon

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I bet a 2 second shot of Stannis' will suffice.

Picking his nose while Davos and Mel cut down a thousand giants?

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If they follow the Stannis-saves-the-day scene just like in the books, people will complain its rushed. It's only like 3.5 pages long and most of the fighting happens off screen.


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I loved this episode. A full episode in one location giving time to have a bit of the quiet before the storm with Sam and Jon, Sam and Gilly, and a louder one with Yrgitte and the Thenns. I thought the Wildlings had a pretty good plan with the Thenn skinchanger waitng to see the inferno on the other side of the Wall and then signaling the attack. It hit home that Jon's mission worked because the Watch was prepared, but not well enough as Alliser Thorne points out. His exchange with Jon was outstanding, his icy, vulgar regret along with the correct notion that thye had no time to dwell on it now. The battle itself was outstanding. The production itself semed to greatly dwarf even Blackwater. The ice shrapnel barrels and the pitch barrels looked awesome and the giants and mammoths were incredible.



On Grenn and Pyp. It was a gut-punch. I didn't see Pyp's death coming, but when Jon sent Grenn down to the gate, I told my spoiler-loving Dad that Grenn was doomed. I think their deaths combined with Yrgitte's combined to put Jon into his Heroic BSOD (blue screen of death) and forced him into his suicidal mission to kill Mance. I've read people saying that the showrunners could have screwed up because maybe Grenn and Pyp might have had huge roles to play later in the books. It's not like the showrunners don't have the author as the co-executive producer who has given them the plot outline.



On Stannis: As other keep having to point out, over and over and over again, Stannis didn't show in the books until days later. In the book, Jon had command of the Wall for days and then was put in the ice cells for days. The Watch held out and to have them saved the same night by Stannis would cheapen their heroism.


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If they follow the Stannis-saves-the-day scene just like in the books, people will complain its rushed. It's only like 3.5 pages long and most of the fighting happens off screen.

All the more reason to want to see a lot of it in the show.

Edited by David Selig

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I don't understand why at this point in the show's incredibly successful lifespan they can't bump it to 12 episodes a season.


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All the more reason to want to see a lot of it in the show.

It would be cool to see Mance getting on his horse in his raven helm and riding off to get captured, or Godry Farring killing a fleeing giant, or Harma Dogshead going down.

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