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The LC election will be next season.


I'm still not happy about moving Stannis to next week. With everything else happening, he and his cavalry charge will get a maximum of five minutes. They could have fit that and the Jon conversation with Mance in this episode if they cut out the filler stuff like Jon and Sam convo, some Sam and Gilly, and Sam and Aemon. (I don't hate Sam. He's one of my favorite characters, but most of his pre-battle scenes were unnecessary.)


Edited by Bilbo Swaggins

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I wouldn't expect GRRM to ever say (or email) that he totally disliked an episode; the man's no fool; this is a critically acclaimed highly rated adaption of his series, after all.

But he doesn't have to say he liked it either. In this case, however, he reached out to Neil Marshall to say how much he loved the episode. I doubt he does that for every episode.

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If you really go by that logic, what the fuck were Snow Winterfell & Lysa's Flight doing in the seventh episode of the season, when it clearly happened in last chapter,right before the prologue?

Maybe they should have done that in last episode, followed by LSH reveal. Then how much emotional impact that would have created,you think?

Truth be told, if it all made perfect sense to me, Craster's would never have happened, Ygritte would have died shortly after Joffrey, Episode 9 would have been Episode 6, then Episode 7 would have had Castle Black fallout etc, etc elsewhere, Episode 8 would have probably been Oberyn-centric, episode 9 would have reminded us of the remaining storylines to be tied up (because i could very wrongly but possibly rightly believe that the showrunners wanted to switch up the expectations for episode 9, i've just been getting this feeling since last season), Epsiode 9 would have covered several different storylines - including Arya and Stannis, and Episode 10 would have more or less stayed true to the book - Dany check-in (because she is a main character and we cannot end a season without her, so in this case, caging her dragons, Jon's fallout, Tyrion, Sansa, LS.

This is off the top of my head, in no way meant to be taken as gospel.

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GRRM liked it before he saw it. Following the show his blog was full of...promos for his theater. Guess we have to decide for ourselves

Have you seen the link/read the article? GRRM said he loved the episode after watching it.

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If you like Stannis you are in for a disappointment. He is obviously going to be killed off early in book 6 when Mel switches to supporting Jon. Stannis has to die before Cersei's brats because otherwise Stannis becomes the sole legitimate heir of Robert Baratheon and Dannys is restarting the war of five kings rather than helping fight the other.

I neither love nor hate Stannis. My critiques 'try' not to have to do with that:)

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For those of you saying that placing a scene in the end or during the episode is the same thing, try putting the Lady Stoneheart scene during the half of next episode and see if it will have the same impact.
Both Stannis and the episode could have had a perfect and remarkeable ending, but they probably transfered the last scene to episode 10 only to decrease the glory of the moment. Episode 10 had enough cliffhangers by itself even without this episode 9.

Also, the episode could have enough time to finish this storyline, considering it was too short and they could just add some more minutes and finish it the way everyone expected.

This.

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Not being a shit, but is this a fair analogy? Stannis' big moment happened in the midst. LS's moment purposely happened at the very end.

Ask yourself would D&D had that 3rd battle as the end if Dany saved the Wall?

Yes.

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I really like what D&D are doing with the series. They have to deal with GRRM's very slow writing style and know they'll have to adapt an unwritten final book.

I think they're partially taking different paths so that we won't know what plot points are a final book spoiler and what's their invention.

Also, I like what they've done with Stannis from the point of view of showing his frustration with the situations he finds himself in. And how he appeared to be The Villain in season two because Disney fantasy movies have brainwashed us to believe anyone using blood magic is evillllll - especially if its the new King's uncle. (Insert cliche Evil Uncle laugh here.) Now, thanks to the atrocities of the Boltons, the Thenns and the Red Wedding etc, that cliche is being soundly squished

I think the plotting of the series is a lot tighter than the books and an improvement in many ways. GRRM is rather indulgent but I suspect the main difference is that he can't go back an rewrite book 1 to help out a situation in book 5. The show's producers knew a lot more about where the story was headed. So instead of three random prostitutes in different places, Ros. Instead of a new character being used for the blood magic, reuse Gendry and set Arya against Berwick.

I have no sympathy for the folk who thought Stannis was going to come in and save the day and eliminate one of the main season to season cliffhangers. It was obvious that there had not been enough prep for the main battle with Mance and that Yggrite's death would be well into the episode. There was never room for Stannis. Even if they have shot the main battle scenes already they will be shown in season 5.

I disagree on the blood magic thing though. I have a nasty feeling that the God of light is going to turn out to be allied with the other or the dual of the other or something similar.

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Have you seen the link/read the article? GRRM said he loved the episode after watching it.

President Obama gets copies of game of thrones in advance. You can be pretty sure GRRM does as well.

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Yes. Because (oh feck, I often can't stand her) a MAIN character, and because she does finish some books.

Nah, she is a blonde with boobs and dragons and they looooooove her.

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I'm a tad disapointed. Now I fear the next episode will either be rushed, or things will be left out. Like maybe Stannis coming will be an early season 5 thing? I wouldn't put it past them...hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion and Shae run off together, and tywin shakes his fist at them...but I digress, I'm setting the bar low for next week, in the hopes it'll surprise me, in a good way.

All that has to happen is Jon walks up to Mance. Some irrelevant trash talk occurs (eg they have Tormund) Things escalate. Stannis charging up with his army. Shot of Stannis gritting teeth. Shot of Mel. Short scene. Long wait for us!

Another shortish scene: hound dies, or as good as. He doesn't, or does, deserve mercy. Arya rides off, trades in the horses, takes off to Braavos. Short scene. Long wait for us.

Brienne might be done for the season. Do we have time for the massive battle at the inn? No. Nor the energy. Not for her trip to the cave where LS and the BWB are based. If that event is skipped we have a ways to go for Jaime to go on his road trip. So no LS. This is good because if she appears next season the build up will be appropriate, not an afterthought.

The episode is Tyrion plus Bran. The rest is tying up short strings.

Or not

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That is sort of my point.

Ok, I guess I was confused about you saying that Melisandre was a POV in ASOS since she isn't. I actually agree with your larger points about how they've made Stannis's arc more about Mel than about him. And I find that rather frustrating. I'm not a huge Stannis fan myself (I respect the character, though) and even I'm seeing them not handling him very well. That's pretty much normal for a lot of characters on this show, though.

That said, I don't think it would have made sense to include him in this episode. His moment is more about sweeping in and scattering Mance's army than it is about coming in and saving the NW in the middle of a large battle. Or rather, he moves in and ends a series of attacks that would have led to a much larger assault. I don't think his importance to the NW will be lost on viewers. They've been hammering home the weaknesses of the NW for 4 seasons now and really showed how out of their depth they are in this episode. Stannis coming in and helping them will still be a big deal for the story moving forward. He changes the dynamic at the Wall. That's game changing whether he gets 5 minutes or 10 minutes.

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OK, I didn't hate it - solely based on the power of my love for Jon Snow and the NW as a bookreader - but it certainly was nowhere near as good (actually fantastic) as "Blackwater."

Imo they made four huge mistakes wrt this episode.

MISTAKE #1: Pushing the raid from the south to the end of the season. It made no sense, lead to pointless filler throughout the season, and undercut the emotional power of Ygritte's death scene.

MISTAKE #2: Not using the rest of the season to develop the characters at the Wall. The only characters we really know are Jon, Sam & Alliser (and one of them is an asshole). It's kind of hard to care about a bunch of nameless/soulless extras & vaguely-drawn bit players.

This is the only good argumentation I've seen here about what's happening at the wall in this season. The massive problem here is that useful screen time is completely wasted by what's happening at Crasters. Having Ygritte's party attacking the wall instead (like in the book) would have allowed further building of character at the wall later + having a proper siege by the wildlings + having the state of desperation at the Wall leading to an heroic Stannis moment (which would have fit perfectly as a climax for ep 09). In aparte it would have left a bit of room for Bran North of the wall, maybe introducing some myths and legends about the place, maybe having Coldhands on screen.

But instead D&D went for Craster's keep sub arc. Hence Ygritte's group syncing the attack with Mance's vanguard. Hence no room at all for Stannis in that episode in that particular context.

Given the choices made by D&d at the Wall for this season, I truly believe - as much as I love book Stannis, that there was absolutely no room for him in that particular context they set for ep 09.

Completely unrelated, I really liked the Sam & Jon discussion atop of the Wall.

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President Obama gets copies of game of thrones in advance. You can be pretty sure GRRM does as well.

He's often said that he doesn't get episodes in advance and only sees them when they first air like everyone else. A recent example. He posted a blog entry a few days before this episode aired and said at the end that he hadn't seen it yet.

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Have you seen the link/read the article? GRRM said he loved the episode after watching it.

Missed it. Now I see the director also quoting an email saying Blackwater was a tough act to follow and he did a good job. The director says GRRM loved it, was happy. Got it.

I seriously don't think GRRM wants to be the guy who proclaims episodes good or bad. He's let it go, it isn't his work. He responded to the rape controversy with his work only. He did not say anything about how he saw it played out. Using the public declarations of him or Elio or anyone else to decide on the legitimacy of someone else's opinion is IMHO an error.

That said I need to see it again but if I decide I liked Blackwater a lot better you all will just have to love me anyway. ;)

Edited by rmholt

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Not if they stick to the part of the story where he's abused every recruit he's met.

Will they? Our dialogue last night only suggested Jon hates Allister. Thorne still had a pretty good night.

I'm mildly afraid that it'll be another "I need to ally with Walder Frey so I can seize Casterly Rock" moment on the show.

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