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I watched the show again from start to finish.

Cons:

1. They could have shaved off a few minutes from the extensive Sam-in-love discussions, so the actual battle could be 3 or 4 minutes longer.

2. Tell me again why Mance/Wildings torched all that acreage? It looked like it was mostly forest, which would provide good cover for the Wildlings. Burning it all down would also kill off many forest animals which could have otherwise provided food for hungry Wildlings.

3. Ygritte fatally shoots poor Pyp; then does nothing while Sam presents a great target as he sits down and comforts the dying Pyp in his arms. Why didn't Ygritte kill Sam? (they could have shown her distracted by a Crow actually engaging her in combat or shooting at her so she has to move to escape)

4. Jon and co. up on the Wall, seem to look down on the approaching giant and mammoth (with ropes, grappling hook-thingies, etc.) for several minutes before it occurs to Jon to order his men to throw down the barrel at them. Why did he wait? If he'd thrown it down (and also shot arrows) a few minutes earlier, he could have killed or crippled both mammoth and giant and burned the ropes and grappling hook thingummy), thus preventing the breaking of the outer gate, or at least tried! That made no sense to me.

5. I know that Jon is saddened by Ygritte's death, but does it make any sense at all for him to head out to try to penetrate a force of thousands of Wildlings to assasinate Mance with no sword and apparently no other weapon either? Seriously, he couldn't have mentioned to Sam that he had a dagger or knife or something. It would have made more sense to send Gilly to do the deed; she at least has the smarts to use whatever's handy (frozen leg of something) as a weapon. Jon's dramatic exit at the end of the sequel seemed as much a decision to commit suicide as it did seizing on a desperate tactic to try to save what was left of Castle Black and his brothers.

Overall, a fairly good episode, but it was no Blackwater.

1. Did the battle need to be 3-4 minutes longer? What would more minutes gain us that the battle we had didn't?

2. I don't know why Mance did that other than to make a signal and perhaps scare the shit out of the wall. Maybe there were no animals left in that part of the woods. That could explain what took so friggin long to build the fire in the first place. I mean the advanced Tormund party had plenty of time to scale the wall and pillage the villages south of the wall while Jon had time to carry out the Craster's Keep raid. What was Mance doing all that time?

3. I think you weren't paying attention to the whole scene there. Did you not notice that Sam and Pyp kept popping up from cover to fire and then go back down? Pyp was hit on the way up, while Sam took care of him behind cover.

4. My guess is that they only had so many barrels and the best effect would be to hit them with the burning barrels while the mammoth was chained to the gait. Better chance of more casualties that way. No one would have know that the giant would be so angered by the loss of his friend(mate?) that he could lift the gate alone. Or perhaps it's a really long way down and hard to see details.

5. Someone else covered this well, but I'll just add that we don't know for sure if he intends to suicide kill Mance just because he says so to Sam. Perhaps he feels like he is the only one who can parley with Mance since he knows him (ordered to in the books). So he'll try to get Mance to agree to some sort of truce, by time for the wall to recoup their losses, and try to assassinate Mance if all else fails. It's a desperate play no doubt, but as he says the will all die either way so it's a chance worth taking.

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5. Someone else covered this well, but I'll just add that we don't know for sure if he intends to suicide kill Mance just because he says so to Sam. Perhaps he feels like he is the only one who can parley with Mance since he knows him (ordered to in the books). So he'll try to get Mance to agree to some sort of truce, by time for the wall to recoup their losses, and try to assassinate Mance if all else fails. It's a desperate play no doubt, but as he says the will all die either way so it's a chance worth taking.

I think he will listen to what Mance has to say, but I don't think it will alter his plans to try and kill him if he gets the chance.

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I think he will listen to what Mance has to say, but I don't think it will alter his plans to try and kill him if he gets the chance.

Perhaps, but we will most likely never know as Stannis will come in and save the day.

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Perhaps, but we will most likely never know as Stannis will come in and save the day.

Well, we know they talk, because Mance says that he plans on killing every Crow in CB. Then we also see a shot of someone with a knife to Jon's throat, which could mean several things, although none of them good XD

In any case, I can't wait to see all of it come to fruition, it's damn exciting :)

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I do love that picture. Now, just imagine if they'd actually fleshed out all of those characters. Hmmmmmm, perhaps I should take this picture to the Nitpick thread. I'm sure I could use a good rant about that, ehhhhh, maybe tomorrow or after the season ends. I do just love that picture and want to enjoy it.

As for Edd, I'm just going to fanwank that the smile is from his one bout of optimism in the books, he was thinking he'd be lucky enough to die before they figured out a way to put his corpse back to work. LOL ;) :lmao:

A picture of that smile right beside every single one of his quotes: Edd the troll! :lol:

Six important characters are pretty good to wrap up the remainder of the season (beyond the sea you have Dany, Barristan, Missandei, Grey Worm, Daario, Jorah, and possibly Hizdahr; Arya's storyline only has two important people; Stannis really only has himself, Melisandre, Davos, Shireen, and Selyse; Sansa, Petyr, and Robin are holding down the Vale story alone for the most part...).

I think later they will reintroduce Mance Rayder though and possibly some other members of his court like Val if they decide to use that character. I also think that Alliser's bigger role in this episode was a good move too since it kind of showed him in a fairly positive light leading the main sortie against the wildlings and delivering three inspirational speeches in about two minutes.

His scenes/lines certainly underlined his passion when defending the Night's Watch and the Wall for the non-book-readers. This makes the speculation that he will assume Bowen Marsh's role all that more interesting.

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Cons:

1. They could have shaved off a few minutes from the extensive Sam-in-love discussions, so the actual battle could be 3 or 4 minutes longer.

I might be a minority when it comes to this but I actually feel that the episode might have benefited from LESS battle scenes and more character drama (maybe not necessarily Sam and Gilly). Specifically more scenes with NW members apart from Jon and Sam and I was really really hoping for Mance. There were a number of really epic shots/fights like Thorne v Tormund, Jon v Styr, the see-saw and the giants in general, but I found many of the other battle scenes somewhat confusing, with a lot of similar-looking extras hacking at each other in the dark.

The wildfire explosion in Blackwater was sufficiently impressive but it were the character interactions that really made that episode for me. But to each their own.

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Am I the only one who hopes that Martin finds a way to work the scythe into the book storyline? XD

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Am I the only one who hopes that Martin finds a way to work the scythe into the book storyline? XD

Nope. Im with ya there.

I think the reason why Mance lit a big ass fire is two-fold. To scare the piss out of the Watch, but also to keep the Others/White Walkers out of fray. At least the wights. By having a huge fire at his back, he protects the wildlings who fall in battle from turning into wights and remember, this is the reason why Mance is fighting anyway. To get away from those guys.

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Nope. Im with ya there.

I think the reason why Mance lit a big ass fire is two-fold. To scare the piss out of the Watch, but also to keep the Others/White Walkers out of fray. At least the wights. By having a huge fire at his back, he protects the wildlings who fall in battle from turning into wights and remember, this is the reason why Mance is fighting anyway. To get away from those guys.

That's exactly what I thought, too. If he has all of those people, he will need a big-ass fire to protect them from the WW.

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Yeah its kinda common sense (as much as one can have in this 'verse) to take measures when you know theres gonna be a lot of dead people going on. This is likely the reason i have not seen astute viewers question why there was a massive fire.


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^ That's why I thought Mance lit the fire too. Although I did wonder why it took people so long to see it - doesn't it take time to get such a big-ass fire going?


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Nope. Im with ya there.

I think the reason why Mance lit a big ass fire is two-fold. To scare the piss out of the Watch, but also to keep the Others/White Walkers out of fray. At least the wights. By having a huge fire at his back, he protects the wildlings who fall in battle from turning into wights and remember, this is the reason why Mance is fighting anyway. To get away from those guys.

And, on top, it cuts the main avenue of retreat for his "army", lowering the chances of a routing.

^ That's why I thought Mance lit the fire too. Although I did wonder why it took people so long to see it - doesn't it take time to get such a big-ass fire going?

Rule of cool.

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I think the reason why Mance lit a big ass fire is two-fold. To scare the piss out of the Watch, but also to keep the Others/White Walkers out of fray. At least the wights. By having a huge fire at his back, he protects the wildlings who fall in battle from turning into wights and remember, this is the reason why Mance is fighting anyway. To get away from those guys.

Wasn't it a signal to the guys south of the wall to attack? Or did they coordinate some other way?

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Am I the only one who hopes that Martin finds a way to work the scythe into the book storyline? XD

Hope? Nay, I INSIST on it.

And Edd needs to order its deployment, too.

[Team Scythe FTW]

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Hope? Nay, I INSIST on it.

And Edd needs to order its deployment, too.

[Team Scythe FTW]

We should totally start a petition. Too bad the $20k "be a character in my book" thing is over, because I would have loved for someone to buy a spot for the scythe.

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We should totally start a petition. Too bad the $20k "be a character in my book" thing is over, because I would have loved for someone to buy a spot for the scythe.

I'm already committed to ensuring/demanding Mace's Handthrone makes Season 5 in any case.

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Wasn't it a signal to the guys south of the wall to attack? Or did they coordinate some other way?

You know...that could also be a reason for the fire. If you really think about it, its pretty practical and kinda clever.

I'm already committed to ensuring/demanding Mace's Handthrone makes Season 5 in any case.

hue! I do hope it makes it!

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I thought the fire was just a show nod to the 'I'm going to light the biggest fire the north has ever seen' line, but I really like the idea of having it as a defence against the white walkers! If we can't have Mance at least we can have his epic one-liners!


Edited by Maid So Fair

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