[Book Spoilers] EP409 Discussion

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I think the delay is probably because of the shooting schedule. This episode probably was already the one with the longest shooting schedule and to fit the Stannis part in would have kept Neil on set for too long.

A lot of times when viewers like us complain we have no idea about the behind the scene logistical nightmares that the changes we'd like to make would have caused.

Edited June 9, 2014 by The Scabbard Of the Morning

[Brienne the Wench]

So, I totally thought that Stannis' arrival was gonna close out the episode! I was almost sure of it. But I can't say that I'm TOO disappointed that it didn't - Jon Snow is by far my favorite character (Jaime coming in second) and I loved him having this whole episode! I do think it was kinda weird to have him decide to go confront Mance himself - because he didn't seem to keen on the idea in the book! But I don't hate it, it's just... different. I still feel like Stannis will definitely get his moment! I have high hopes that it won't just be a bleh moment, it'll be all it's supposed to be.

Pyp AND Grenn?! Come on, RIP Grenn :-(

I don't think Jon is daft at all! In both the books and the show, I think he makes (mostly) the best decisions he can - and I happen to think he's a clever guy, with awesome swordfighting skills to boot! I think he's a super conflicted character - caught between two worlds - but that he tries to always do what he thinks is right. Sure he makes mistakes, but who doesn't?! I don't think those mistakes make him stupid. With the books, we are focused so much more on him that we get to know his character on a more personal level, so of course we know his depth even more in print. But show Jon is still kick-ass.

I totally liked this episode - and it breezed by! It was over before I was ready for it to be over, I didn't even realize it had reached the end! I have never not liked an episode of the show (just maybe little moments here and there where things were really CHANGED) and I'm not gonna start now!

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

If it's handled well on screen it will be glorious.

Do you really think D&D can handle any Stannis moment gloriously? Don't kid yourself.

[Rodrik Stone]

I officially have no clue how they're going to fit the rest of ASOS into Episode 10. They need to do:

• STANNIS STANNIS STANNIS (or equivalent)
  
• Yes, I killed your vile son.
  
• You are no son of mine.
  
• Arya going to Braavos? Otherwise it'd be odd that we'd keep seeing it in the titles after Stannis goes to the IB.
  
• Something with Bran- the Heart Tree was foreshadowed way too hard earlier in the season to not include it, plus the episode is called The Children.
  
• Hazzea flambé?
  
• Lady Stoneheart, maybe- but honestly I'd rather S05E01 open with her at this point.
  

That's pretty much all high-impact stuff with no space for filler scenes + mandatory T&A.

[redriver]

Do you really think D&D can handle any Stannis moment gloriously? Don't kid yourself.

I think as a Mance fan I might have more reason to complain!!

[Lord Voldemort]

Do you really think D&D can handle any Stannis moment gloriously? Don't kid yourself.

They did Blackwater very good from little to no source material.

[Alboin]

Is Stannis being moved to e10 officially means no Lady Stoneheart? :bawl:

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

They did Blackwater very good from little to no source material.

Blackwater was written by GRRM and directed by Neil Marshall. D&D had no or little control on that one, which is why it was epic.

Stan's epic charge was either written by GRRM or a change by Neil Marshall. Had it been D&D he would have been back at Dragonstone burning some infidels.

I think as a Mance fan I might have more reason to complain!!

Ouch. Yeah i agree that you will have loads to complain.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Stan the Man Baratheon

[Jinjonator]

Also: I don't find the argument of Stannis's moment being buried terribly persuasive, especially since you could apply that argument to literally any scene. "Arya leaving the Hound won't be as effective because there's so many epic scenes", "Dany chaining her dragons won't be as effective because there's so many epic scenes", etc etc etc. Yes, it's true that Stannis arriving will end up being one epic scene out of many; this description also applies to every other epic scene in the finale. And obviously you can't give each epic scene its own episode. The way I look at it is this: it means the finale will be that much better, because it's one more great scene added to the list of great scenes. Not sure if that kind of optimism is legal here, but that's my 2 cents.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I officially have no clue how they're going to fit the rest of ASOS into Episode 10. They need to do:

• STANNIS STANNIS STANNIS (or equivalent)

Yes, I killed your vile son.

You are no son of mine.

Arya going to Braavos? Otherwise it'd be odd that we'd keep seeing it in the titles after Stannis goes to the IB.

Something with Bran- the Heart Tree was foreshadowed way too hard earlier in the season to not include it, plus the episode is called The Children.

Hazzea flambé?

Lady Stoneheart, maybe- but honestly I'd rather S05E01 open with her at this point.

That's pretty much all high-impact stuff with no space for filler scenes + mandatory T&A.

Maybe some of ASOS will bleed into season 5. i mean Jon still has to meet with Mance, get saved by Stannis and become the Lord Commander.

[SkaggCannibal]

There are fair few amount of people who believe that. Read: Anti-Stannis people.

The whining from apologists will continue.

You forget that this episode will feature LS reveal. I am sorry but nothing beat LS reveal. It is also the reason why GRRM kept it in the epilogue.

Yeah LS reveal, almost forgot about that. I don't get why they would pack three awesome things (Stannis arrival, Tyrion-Tywin and LS) in one episode. We also get Bran, Arya+theHound goodbey, Dany and her dragons, the preview gives more Cersei+Jaime... That episode is already way too packed, it always is. Now here they had an extra 10minutes to show something, but no, we gonna spare it for the last episode, make it even longer and more packed. And lets fill this too-short episode with Sam scenes.... Ugh they could've scrapped so much Sam here, would've given them all the time in the world.

Edited June 9, 2014 by SkaggCannibal

[LordBloodraven]

Who gives a fuck about Jon Snow we all watched this episode for Stannis.

Seriously, get over it. Jon Snow and the Black Brothers were as much heroic as Stannis at the Wall. D&D will cram his storyline between Hazzea toast and Tywin shitting himself

[Brienne the Wench]

I officially have no clue how they're going to fit the rest of ASOS into Episode 10. They need to do:

• STANNIS STANNIS STANNIS (or equivalent)

Yes, I killed your vile son.

You are no son of mine.

Arya going to Braavos? Otherwise it'd be odd that we'd keep seeing it in the titles after Stannis goes to the IB.

Something with Bran- the Heart Tree was foreshadowed way too hard earlier in the season to not include it, plus the episode is called The Children.

Hazzea flambé?

Lady Stoneheart, maybe- but honestly I'd rather S05E01 open with her at this point.

That's pretty much all high-impact stuff with no space for filler scenes + mandatory T&A.

Right! I REALLY hope they don't skimp on Jaime & Tyrion's scene - I want to see it in all of its debilitating glory. Hazzea flambe? LoL! That's terrible.

And Lady Stoneheart, I feel like she could be the very last scene! I mean, it's not a terribly long scene. as I recall... is it? But definitely no space for fillers! Every second has to count.

On another note, Jon becoming Lord Commander, I'm definitely thinking that's not happening until next season! I think his arc will end with Stannis' (hopefully) epic arrival and subsequent kicking of some Wildling ass.

[SkaggCannibal]

Also: I don't find the argument of Stannis's moment being buried terribly persuasive, especially since you could apply that argument to literally any scene. "Arya leaving the Hound won't be as effective because there's so many epic scenes", "Dany chaining her dragons won't be as effective because there's so many epic scenes", etc etc etc. Yes, it's true that Stannis arriving will end up being one epic scene out of many; this description also applies to every other epic scene in the finale. And obviously you can't give each epic scene its own episode. The way I look at it is this: it means the finale will be that much better, because it's one more great scene added to the list of great scenes. Not sure if that kind of optimism is legal here, but that's my 2 cents.

It's that this episode they had the time to make it work and they choose not to. They had an extra 10 minutes left and they moved it to the last episode. And they had too much Sam-time, Stannis could've fitted in perfectly this episode.

[Rhaquentis]

Relax guys, we don't have to separate ourselves into Stannis vs AntiStannis. :rolleyes: I too wanted him to be in the ending, and I agree that it would make him more likeable and heroic, but it would take from the NW. I can still admire him in the next episode, along with all the rest of the amazing scenes there.

[Gertrude]

Yes, it's true that Stannis arriving will end up being one epic scene out of many; this description also applies to every other epic scene in the finale. And obviously you can't give each epic scene its own episode.

No, of course not, but I think that each epic scene needs a little breathing room. I am concerned that there is too much to fit into the finale and not be just overloaded. We shall see, I guess, but I would have preferred seeing them spread out a little.

[slon]

And they had too much Sam-time

this. i couldnt believe the waste of time.

[Onna Lewyys]

OK, I didn't hate it - solely based on the power of my love for Jon Snow and the NW as a bookreader - but it certainly was nowhere near as good (actually fantastic) as "Blackwater."

Imo they made four huge mistakes wrt this episode.

MISTAKE #1: Pushing the raid from the south to the end of the season. It made no sense, lead to pointless filler throughout the season, and undercut the emotional power of Ygritte's death scene.

MISTAKE #2: Not using the rest of the season to develop the characters at the Wall. The only characters we really know are Jon, Sam & Alliser (and one of them is an asshole). It's kind of hard to care about a bunch of nameless/soulless extras & vaguely-drawn bit players.

MISTAKE #3: Too much wall-to-wall action without a respite. Without anything else to cut to, the action gets repetitive, and it's hard to keep the momentum going. "Blackwater" had Maegor's Holdfast; this had nothing.

MISTAKE #4: Structuring the episode without a resolution. Not for Stannis's sake but for the sake of having a complete narrative, Jon going to treat with Mance should have been about the 4/5 mark, concluding with about 2 minutes of Stannis's army kicking ass. (And mirroring "Blackwater" is kind of the point.)

[Rhoynar]

Ok, so we know for sure the following plotlines will be in next episode:

1. Jon meets Mance.

2. Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!

3. The Mountain's agony and Qyburn's messing about (the actor playing Qyburn said he was appearing in the last episode with Bjornsson)

4. The Hound fights Brienne (WTF?)

5. Twincest

6. Bran meets the Children

7. "Khaleesi" locks the dragons up

8. Cersei speaks with Tywin

9. Tyrion and Jaime

10.Tyrion, Shae and Tywin

Maybe:

1. Stannis offers Winterfell to Jon

2. Lady Stoneheart

So, now, how the f* will they have time to make the battle of the Wall seem lost before Stannis arrives?? And how will they have enough time to give the man his due glory? Will they show us the crushing of the wildlings? How much do D&D hate Stannis?

[The Taxman]

They had an extra 7 minutes to add in Stannis this episode... fuckkkkkk