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Yes. And because of that and more, she is a book finisher, whether she deserves this particular book or not.

I know she has to have some sort of epic Woodstock moment in the last ep so I'm curious how awkwardly it will be jammed in.

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seems it's going to be the dragon lock- up...IMO, unnecessary.

Ah the kid BBQ. Yeah that would work.

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That said I need to see it again but if I decide I liked Blackwater a lot better you all will just have to love me anyway. ;)

What makes "Blackwater" a better episode for me personally, even if it isn't as visually or technically impressive, is that they did a much better job setting it up. They spent time establishing the players and explaining the situation clearly while slowly building up to it over the course of the season.

Most of the material at the Wall this season has felt like one missed opportunity after another. The Craster's Keep material could have been completely cut and replaced with more direct material leading up to this bigger attack from Mance. The extra time could have also been used to show more of the struggles Bran and company were going through. Or they could have used Bran to tell more backstory.

There are a lot of ways they could have more effectively built up to this episode to give it a bigger impact. But this has been a problem all season outside of King's Landing. They could have been using the time with Dany to transition viewers into the more heavily political situation she finds herself in as well as establishing Meereen as a city. Instead we've ended up with a Missandei/Grey Worm romance and Dany deciding on a whim to sleep with Daario. Both were handled fairly well for what they are but it's time that could have been better spent on more relevant development. And that's really just one of many examples. Poor use of screen time has been a problem all season and has really diluted a lot of the stories for me.

Edited by Caerl Targaryen

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Will they? Our dialogue last night only suggested Jon hates Allister. Thorne still had a pretty good night.

I'm mildly afraid that it'll be another "I need to ally with Walder Frey so I can seize Casterly Rock" moment on the show.

They really do seem to have skimped heavily on characters on the Wall so caring about how Jon becomes LC is hard. OTOH Jon going rogue, taking over command de facto, and marching off to treat with Mance on his own is helped by not having to work with those other two castles and other men of command material. I presume he'll be LC of something so they'll need crow characters. Problem for next season.

Which is totally weird since it's the Wall and the Watchers, whom we see so little of, who start the story and who ought to end it, saving the world, and so forth. The action south of the wall and in Essos is all aiming at that purpose. No respect.

Edited by rmholt

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Sorry if I made myself unclear. Basically I agree with you.

No worries! It's all good. :)

Ah the kid BBQ. Yeah that would work.

That's the most likely thing they'll be ending Dany's arc with this season. It even fits with the episode title, "The Children."

Many of the plots they have left to deal with have to do with children in various ways. There are the children of the forest, Dany's children (the dragons), the dragons killing a child, Tyrion exacting revenge against his father and being helped by his brother to escape, there's Lady Stoneheart's revenge against those who butchered her last (known) living son, and of course there are the stories involving the remaining Stark children. We could probably break down the remaining subplots and look at them from the same perspective (some would probably be more forced...).

The title seemed rather lame when I first read it but it's actually a pretty smart title now that I've thought about it a little more. It doesn't really give anything away yet it's quite telling if you know anything about the books.

Edited by Caerl Targaryen

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What makes "Blackwater" a better episode for me personally, even if it isn't as visually or technically impressive, is that they did a much better job setting it up. They spent time establishing the players and explaining the situation clearly while slowly building up to it over the course of the season.

Most of the material at the Wall this season has felt like one missed opportunity after another. The Craster's Keep material could have been completely cut and replaced with more direct material leading up to this bigger attack from Mance. The extra time could have also been used to show more of the struggles Bran and company were going through. Or they could have used Bran to tell more backstory.

There are a lot of ways they could have more effectively built up to this episode to give it a bigger impact. But this has been a problem all season outside of King's Landing. They could have been using the time with Dany to transition viewers into the more heavily political situation she finds herself in as well as establishing Meereen as a city. Instead we've ended up with a Missandei/Grey Worm romance and Dany deciding on a whim to sleep with Daario. Both were handled fairly well for what they are but it's time that could have been better spent on more relevant development. And that's really just one of many examples. Poor use of screen time has been a problem all season and has really diluted a lot of the stores for me.

I agree with your issues. The tech superhuman efforts have at times exceeded character and plot.

There's nothing in Wall that chilled me like several moments in Blackwater. They scaled the tech way down but that single ship leaking green said enough. I said "Cool!" a few times (Giants! who do archery! WTH is the Scythe?! OhWow!!) but only the Grenn-gate-oath scene hit me inside.

When Davos son hollers DRUMS! I just flip - that whole assault looked like the director took lessons from D-Day/Saving Private Ryan right up to anticipatory puking. Jon and Ygritte had an entire love affair with virtually no facial expressions or visible passion and that's how the fight at the Wall looked - on that side. Maybe that was on purpose bc the wildlings looked INTENSE. If it was on purpose I don't think it's working.

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I think that much of the frustration that book readers feel with some of the choices that the show's writers and directors have made stems from the book readers' knowing that certain characters are very important to the story; and seeing them getting less screen time than they might need to accomplish the purposes they fulfilled in the book (not to mention seeing them characterized as they were in the books).



Stannis plays an important role in the survival of the Night's Watch and destiny of the Wildlings and the North, at least for now, and during the time of the story we are seeing dramatized. He's a good leader and soldier. But in the show, Stannis is an unlikeable grump who burns trusted allies because they're "infidels" and does not, at least has not yet, come to the defense of the Night's Watch in a blaze of Rhlorry-glory. Yet we get invented scenes such as the Maester Aemon/Sam discussion about love. I wonder if Sam gets a lot more screen time than Stannis because TV-fans like Sam more than they like Stannis? (not saying they do, but it's a possibility) Also, it could be that the show is contractually obligated to give Peter Vaughan, the 91-year-old actor who plays Aemon, a certain amount of screen time per season. Or, they could have wanted to have this episode be all about the men of the Night's Watch themselves (plus Gilly) and the way they face hopeless odds, without a last-minute reprieve from Stannis the Mannis.



I confess that I cannot figure out the presentation of the character of Mance Rayder in the TV show. He was a hardened rogue in the book; but also possessed charm and charisma and genuinely seemed to like, or at least value Jon Snow. TV-Mance has just glowered and frowned and seemed to disapprove of Jon like every other Wildling except Ygritte. I wonder if Ciaran Hinds was bored or unhappy freezing up in Iceland; because he certainly looked like he wanted to be anywhere but there.



And don't get me started on TV-Brienne's viciousness and now her surly disapproval of Pod. Perhaps the directors wanted her to be more edgy than the character in the book. Or Littlefinger, who is definitely less smart than his book counterpart.



It would probably be easier for me, and other book readers, to have not read the books at all, so we could just enjoy the TV series as good entertainment. If only they could make each episode 10 minutes longer; it would improve things a bit, I think.



Meanwhile, I think that next week's finale will be very busy. If we're lucky, we'll see:



Brienne fightin' and bitin'.


Arya abandoning the dying Hound and Valar Morghulis-ing off to Braavos.


Bran meets a tree, the Children of the Forest, maybe Bloodraven.


Dany's dragon babies are growing up too fast; she has to lock them up.


Tyrion and Jaime's significant Tysha discussion during Tyrion's escape; Tyrion taking that fateful detour to the Chamber of the Hand and killing Tywin and Shae.


Jon vs. Wildling Host, hello, Mance. Then Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!


Lady Stoneheart.



There's no time for Cersei, Sansa, Littlefinger, Sam/Gilly, Margaery, Tommen, etc. Not even time for all that should be in the episode. I could see them pushing Lady Stoneheart to the end of the first episode of Season 5.



However, I might well be totally wrong...

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This is the only good argumentation I've seen here about what's happening at the wall in this season. The massive problem here is that useful screen time is completely wasted

Completely unrelated, I really liked the Sam & Jon discussion atop of the Wall.

There is no reason IMHO not to have developed the Tormund-Jon relationship. Plus whoever dresses him makes him a cartoon. He's a great character! So is Mance who is also underdeveloped but less so.

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There is no reason IMHO not to have developed the Tormund-Jon relationship. Plus whoever dresses him makes him a cartoon. He's a great character! So is Mance who is also underdeveloped but less so.

I feel like Mance got the short end of the stick in both character and screen time. ASOS being split in half didn't help. IIRC we don't see him at all after Jon leaves to climb The Wall, until he shows up to cross it, but that works better in the book than it does in the show. Since in the book you're not going a year plus without seeing him. Could have beinifted from a scene here and there. I don't mind made up stuff like Missandei and Grey Worm but i'd trade that for more Mance any time.

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Sometimes I wonder why some of the people on this forum still watch the show. The comments posted while the show was airing will lead you to believe everyone is having a good time and loving the episode. But then it ends and people don't see the ONE thing they wanted to be there and suddenly it was all bad.



Speaking as someone who started by watching the show and then reading the books, I have to say that I was generally more impressed with the show before I started reading the books. But that's because I came to the show with no expectations except thrilling entertainment. And that's what I got. This is the same reason the Unsullied are not complaining about the episode (from what I've seen anyway). The thing is that it was a BRILLIANT episode, like the rest of the episodes this season.



Assuming that the biggest disappointment was Stannis the Missing, I get the feeling that if Stannis had made it to the wall people might have then started complaining about the manner of his arrival, or how he just didn't seem heroic enough, or how D&D deviated from the book, or how the lighting didn't hit his hair at just the right angle...



In their disappointment people fail to realise that this is a show. Unlike GRRM's books, it has several limitations imposed on it. A lot of the things we read cannot be translated on to the screen. GRRM works with imagination and imagination alone. D&D work in the real world. I do admit that if the episodes were 10 minutes longer maybe that problem would not be so extensive. However, that would still strain the budget and D&D would still manage to piss off some people.



The thing to do when watching this show is to cast away all book expectations. I loved the episode, book knowledge or not, it was brilliantly done. Even better than Blackwater in my opinion.


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Rewatched this episode.



Notice the errant fire-arrow that hits directly above the door where Ghost is at. Sam, erm GRRM, feels it whiz by and notices it...



Jon's call, "I need HIM more then I need you!".



just sayin.


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something that really bothered me (and made the episode much worse...) -although the only part I did love was the God of War style of chain getting out of the Wall....- is the end. Where Jon decides to go kill Mance!!!!


Hello....! That's out of character for Jon! He respects Mance, he is not an assassin and he believes in the common enemy... and that's according to his actions at ADWD.... I really can't see HOW he is willing to kill Mance but later made ammends with the Free Folk... and Tormund.. the hell Tormund.... Tormund was the closest thing to KBtW after Mance.... not a prisoner!


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Laughable episode. Some cool moments like giant bow, Thorne and Chekov's kiddo, but overall very underwhelming. Bad CGI and non-sensical, Rambo style action (how many crows did Tormund and Ygritte kill between themselves? 50?) with lame choreography (the Thorne/Tormund fight was a complete embarassment). Most of the action cornerstones were either stupid or pointless (like, why would they drop that scythe on 6 people? Why would they use a mammoth to tear out the gate when they could've just lifted it and propped it with something? Why would Jon jump from 12 feet when he just got stabbed in the thigh a week earlier just to have a cool moment? Why did the wildling attack on the Wall consist of about 30 people at max? And so on and on and on).



How did those two idiots even get their ends on the books? The censorship department of the Chinese goverment would make a better job of adapting it than those two butchers. Whenever they put their hands on something and try to change it, it becomes a pure, stinking shit. Not to mention them killing Grenn and Pyp for no reason.



Inb4 Stannis genocides the wildlings next week, just after Mance and Jon reach a peaceful agreement of them crossing the Wall (this will take 2 minutes of screentime before it cuts to some glorious Daenerys/Tyrion stuff).


Edited by C0bR

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I can't complain about a thing.



Seeing a Giant run after his Mammoth, chain dragging behind,


no matter how fast he runs, the chain is out of reach.


Priceless.



How many of us have been THERE!..

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Please someone do fill me in: the bald one who fights with Jon isn't Rattlesnake? I do remember a few episodes back when he met up with Ygritte&co., he presented himslef with this name.


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Please someone do fill me in: the bald one who fights with Jon isn't Rattlesnake? I do remember a few episodes back when he met up with Ygritte&co., he presented himslef with this name.

I'm not sure if he is the one you menat, but one bald that was shown in the episode was non other that Varamyr Sixskins....

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I'm not sure if he is the one you menat, but one bald that was shown in the episode was non other that Varamyr Sixskins....

Nah he's not, just a Thenn Warg. Varamyr is being casted for season 5

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Please someone do fill me in: the bald one who fights with Jon isn't Rattlesnake? I do remember a few episodes back when he met up with Ygritte&co., he presented himslef with this name.

It's Styr

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Nah he's not, just a Thenn Warg. Varamyr is being casted for season 5

Really??? I'd love to see him! I just reread his POV and then I realised Summer made his wolves his pack...in Bran I ADWD...

but when I saw the warg in the latest episode I though he would be Varamyr .... due to the fact that he was warging an eagle too...

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