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How would you rate episode 409?  

896 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      33
    • 2
      13
    • 3
      13
    • 4
      21
    • 5
      36
    • 6
      45
    • 7
      80
    • 8
      139
    • 9
      215
    • 10
      298


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I'm kind of surprised that they haven't had Mance reappear on the show prior to the attack to remind non-readers who he is. It would have also given a chance to introduce Dalla and Val, but I suspect they cut both of them from the show.



Jon's negotiation/assasination attempt was far-fetched in the books, but it appears he is going with no weapon? And he has a significantly worse relationship with every wildling outside of Ygritte in the show. Tormund still likes Jon and defends his right to speak to Mance when he is sent in the book. Tormund is captured on the show, and has no respect or friendship with Jon to speak of, and of course won't be there to speak up for him when he goes to try and meet Mance.



The changes also make their future book interactions of brokering the wildling/night's watch peace much harder to make convincing. Of course the show has a history of changing things, and then going back to the book storyline as if the changes never happened, so who knows what they will do.


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5, the lowest I ever gave for any GoT episode. I don't think the cherography for the fight scenes and the whole battle are very good. Good enough for a low budget TV I guess. But even Xena was better TV, sorry. And minus 1 point for killing Grenn and Pyp.



I only liked the scythe dropping from the wall thingy. That was cool.



Why kill them off? Did the actors quit or something?


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Last quarter or third of Storm of Swords, if you read it at once without spoilers, will be one of best hours of your life regarding artistic consummation, if not the best.



I couldn't possibly name one favorite scene, plot line resolution but the one that sticks out is Stannis arrival, it's so masterfully executed with GRRM characteristic short effective last sentence of chapters (along with first short effective sentence).



"Jon turned away, and went inside the tent."



I fear that adaptation will change that into some quasi overly dramatic sequence of Mance being close to killing Jon, then Stannis will arrive leading his army, exposing himself unrealistically. He will save Jon or something like that. Some stupid mediocre quasi-war music theme, Stannis shouting some "cool" lines, etc.



In the books you just have from Jon's POV, his thoughts and realization. No need tho show everything, GRRM don't write it if he can't depict some creative and important moment in mere battle. Show will ofcourse show it all, despite constant boring argument from show apologist of budget constraints.



Similar to Ygritte's death,: in books it's so surrealistically ordinary, sudden and feels naturally as always with GRRM (unlike stupid claiming that books and show use death for mere shock value!)



In the show it was horribly executed with super cheesy last minute bow in the back from inexperienced swordsman who saves the main character, seen 1000 times before.


Before that he got some advice to fight, not hide.


And then some slow motion.


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I'm kind of surprised that they haven't had Mance reappear on the show prior to the attack to remind non-readers who he is. It would have also given a chance to introduce Dalla and Val, but I suspect they cut both of them from the show.

Jon's negotiation/assasination attempt was far-fetched in the books, but it appears he is going with no weapon? And he has a significantly worse relationship with every wildling outside of Ygritte in the show. Tormund still likes Jon and defends his right to speak to Mance when he is sent in the book. Tormund is captured on the show, and has no respect or friendship with Jon to speak of, and of course won't be there to speak up for him when he goes to try and meet Mance.

The changes also make their future book interactions of brokering the wildling/night's watch peace much harder to make convincing. Of course the show has a history of changing things, and then going back to the book storyline as if the changes never happened, so who knows what they will do.

Instead of sending Val to meet with Tormund, Jon will have Tormund go out and treat with the wildlings. So, like they did with characters like Bronn, Tormund will likely be used more because his character already has some build up. You can't just keep introducing tons of new characters in the TV show or it will become even more hard to follow for the non-readers.

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I don't really take an interest in what happens behind the scenes regarding whether the series has been picked up for more seasons but will take your word for it. I hope D&D don't continue to kill off the minor characters who add to the rich fabric of Westeros and Essos and make the show more enjoyable simply because they think they are unimportant.

I agree, first we have TOO MANY characters, and now too few! Weird!

I know there will be new ones but I hope GRRM does not introduce too many.

The 'kill em off' George and now D and D is getting to be a cliché .

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I'd also like to add, randomly, that I've read some reviews online this morning and a few say, in a negative way, that the show messed up by having Jon see who killed Ygritte. They say that in the book, Jon wasn't sure if he was the one that killed her. Hmm... am I wrong in remembering that Jon knew he didn't kill her thanks to the type of feathers in the arrow shaft? They were different than what he used during the battle.




Also, personally, I loved the way the show handled her death. After all the talk about wanting to kill Jon, in the end, her love for him caused hesitation and it cost her her life. I also loved that Jon, upon seeing her, simply smiled.. even though she was pointing an arrow at him at the time, his happiness in seeing her over ruled the fact that he may be about to die. "Blah, blah, bloah, it was teh cheezy?!?".. well, it's a TV show and it made for interesting TV.


Edited by Starksmustwin

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I gave it a 6. Even my non-book reading wife didn't seem too impressed. "Ugh the whole episode is really at the Wall?". Her reaction to Thorne's speech in the courtyard: "Is this really all there's going to be?". She didn't cry like I thought she would when Ygritte died. She was wondering what the fuck was going on with the mammoths and giants: "What's the point of those barrels? Why aren't they shooting? Is that it?"



I am not a fan of Stannis, Jon bloody Snow, or any of the Night's Watch stuff. But if there is anything good in the books in regards to that storyline it is these battles. There are 3 important beats in the books and they messed them all up: Ygritte's death, Noye and the Giant, and Stannis's arrival. They cut the last one and the first two had no build ups. They made Ygritte a villain this whole season and thought the Thenns mocking her would make people give a flying hoop about her still loving Jon. They didn't show the giant fighting in the tunnels, didn't build up any of the "these are the last giants left on the planet so this is tragic" (although they did randomly show the king freaking out when the other one died -- wife didn't care), and didn't impress how heroic the sacrifice of the NW men was. Then they focus so much on that cliff hanger with that loser Snow and totally gloss over Grenn's death.



This episode was billed as being bigger than Blackwater. Sure maybe it cost more and was more technically challenging but it had no emotion or scale. The fight in the courtyard is a perfect 1 for 1 analog to Jarl Borg's attack on Kattegat -- just a bunch of dudes (and dudettes) skirmishing in a dark ages looking set. But even Vikings seemed to have more extras in that fight than GoT did. Sure the climactic fight between the Vikings and the Saxons only lasted 3 minutes but it featured 2 cavalry charges and well over 300 men and women fighting. If we have to give up the sense of scale for 1 shot of Ghost ripping a guy's throat out and the lamest Giant attack in the history of cinema then I'd take Vikings any day.



Worst episode of the season and worst 9th episode of the series.


Edited by King Cheops

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I'd also like to add, randomly, that I've read some reviews online this morning and a few say, in a negative way, that the show messed up by having Jon see who killed Ygritte. They say that in the book, Jon wasn't sure if he was the one that killed her. Hmm... am I wrong in remembering that Jon knew he didn't kill her thanks to the type of feathers in the arrow shaft? They were different than what he used during the battle.

Also, personally, I loved the way the show handled her death. After all the talk about wanting to kill Jon, in the end, her love for him caused hesitation and it cost her her life. I also loved that Jon, upon seeing her, simply smiled.. even though she was pointing an arrow at him at the time, his happiness in seeing her over ruled the fact that he may be about to die. "Blah, blah, bloah, it was teh cheezy?!?".. well, it's a TV show and it made for interesting TV.

He knew.

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In an interview Neil mentioned there were going to be 3 battles ...

- Battle at Castle Black

- Battle at the Wall

- Stannis' arrival

Not sure what the third one is supposed to be.

The battle in the tunnel.

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IMHO 6-7 was fair. (I gave it a 7). If you gave it a 1 you're hating just to hate, and if you gave it a 10 I think you were very generous. Come on a 1? People keep comparing this show to other shows that literally do not even come close. Just stop......on the other hand this battle was being built up since season 1 and I feel like they could've really made it feel more gut wrenching if they spent more time on it rather than fake love stories and stupid filler. But this can be said for the entire season. I think cutting it up week to week hurts the overall reviews of each episode (But obviously they have to). All together it's good season. I felt like the ending was a buzzkill at first, I was expecting Stannis only because I feel like episode 10 will be rushed. I'm also afraid episode 10 will be something stupid like The Hound vs Brienne, too much Arya & Dany etc. And that the wall wont get it's proper ending, which in the books were a game changer and exciting. I also fear they may be no LS. ALL THIS BEING SAID, I really really hope I am proved wrong. I really do hope* they will end this in a fantastic edge of the seat way. We'll see.


Edited by Defeatarion

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6.5



Possibly the least enjoyable episode of the entire series for me. I like the show for its dialogue and intrigue, I didn't really care for 30 min of people hacking at each other in the dark, where I could hardly see anything.


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I liked it, thought they should have finished the Castle Black stuff (seems like there is a LOT to include next week) but still good. Sad that Pyp and Grenn died...


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Nictarion - MIssandei does indeed have a beautiful rack.

avis olba - I meant the Purple Wedding. My bad. In the novel, it's built up towards in two consecutive chapters before the Tyrion chapter they adapted, but the show cut a lot of its backdrop out, or unnecessarily condensed it, and and just lunged straight into the wedding feast. I'd happily have taken less time at The Wall in the current episode, though it worked in this episode's favour, to have had a full King's Landing episode for ep 2.

What time at the wall? So you basically want the Ice cut out of A song of Ice and Fire. You don't need to cut time from something that hardly has gotten any over the last 4 years. Battle of the fist ring a bell? Probably not because it didn't happen. Hey they built it up like it was going to happen, made it a cliffhanger but you know what? Didn't happen. How bout cutting some of that useless KL shit they have done for the actual important KL stuff. Hey get they put in some character development scenes and that's all good, but character development for non characters is where I draw the line. You know the wall is important, you know Stannis is important, and I love the Dink, but I don't need to see him in bad poorly written filler when there is much better stuff in the books that can be spread around to other arcs that are getting short changed.

And yeah Missandei is hot on the show, but you know what? Don't need the romance, great they want to give some time to the nobodies to create some emotional impact for when they kill off GW in place of her brothers. But I never met her brothers in the book and it still had impact. And before you run around giving away time to characters that really don't matter, how about giving some emotional impact to some of the actual arcs they have gutted. Or how about spreading the dreams around a bit, last I checked Bran is not the only one who has prophetic dreams.

You want more time for some important developments in KL? That's fine there is plenty of wasted time to go around I'm not greedy. How about Stannis? They gut his arc, gut his arc, then create a scene in Braavos that's not needed and it doesn't matter because Stannis was once again unable to think. They want to change some his arc, fine, okay, but at what point has he ever been an idiot? This to hard, Davos help show them your hand, well everything is fixed. Yeah I can skip that crap and be just fine. Poorly written? Check. Waste of time? Check. Weak characterization? Check. Pointless? Check.

Or I know lets go to Crasters. Me fucking, fuck, rape, fuck, skull fuck, kill fuck, rape, fuck knives, of fucking alley to fuck up everyone, so fucking fuck fuck, to fuck rape the fuck fuck, out of fuck me so fucking dead fuck, you fat fuck cause I am the best fuck ever fuck, fuck Mormont skull drink fuck and rape.

Sorry but fuck that garbage.

Or hey lets torture Theon, now lets do it again, now lets mix it up and some boobs, and you know what lets cut his dick off. Well glad that's over with oh shit we are back for more torture, really? I get it, put away the sledge hammer he is being tortured.

Oh hey it's Roz... again... oh great. "It's hard for girls like...." No shut up and get off my screen you irrelevant wast of time. Oh she is there to show me how cruel Joff is. Well that's a horse of a different color because I had not picked up on that at all so thank god for Roz. Check Joff is cruel and I in no way would have figured that out without Roz.

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id only give it a 5. the episode was very entertaining, and the battle scenes were awesome. However, being a reader of the books, i am dissappointed in the overall structure of the episode, and not just this one, most of the scenes from the wall have been changed imo for the worst. It all startedwith jon having to deal with the mutineers beyond the wall. it was a plot line not derived from the books and imo that should have been relpaced that with the wildlings storming castle black from the south. they could have then added the first siege from from notrh off the wall an episode or so earlier and then had another one this past episode plus jon going beyond the wall to treat with mance, then the arrival of stannis at the end of the episode. i think this could have added clarity to what all is happening up at the wall plus t would have freed some space to better explain what is going to happen is episode ten becasue from what i know they will need to cover a lot of plot points as well as leaving some out either for good or next season. anyways this is only my opinion, i love thrones and i love all 4 seasons but i think it coulda been better feel free to tear this apart or agree its all for the good of the realm


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5 out of 10 for the episode itself, 9 out of 10 for the battle scenes. The penultimate has never underwhelmed, except for last night. I yawned at the wrong times; Maester Aemon and Sam, Jon and Ygritte at the end. I should have felt something and I didn't, except mild stiffening in the hand propping up my chin as I wondered if the characters were done speaking. The battle itself; well, you can't beat mammoths and giants.


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Unless you like action over dialogue and character development, you couldn't possibly prefer this episode to Blackwater. Blackwater had that really awesome series of scenes with drunk Cersei hectoring Sansa, the scene with Sansa and the Hound, Sansa trying to provoke Joffrey to charge into battle, Cersei ordering Joffrey to bed, and Tyrion's epic "Those are brave men knocking on our door! Let's go kill them!"



This episode isn't even comparable. John and Sam with a handful of decent lines, Aemon with a nice little scene but also a bit out of place, not comparable to the Cersei-Sansa stuff by any stretch of the imagination. That was some of the best dialogue in the whole series.



I'm not an action fan, but I did very much enjoy some of the big action in this like the giants, fire, and scythe, the "tracers" going up and down the wall in a night action, the charge of the wildlings from the south. But the melee in the courtyard was just a big yawn. 2 minutes is plenty of screen time for a melee in my book, but this went on and on and on and on and on and on. . . .



Also: a probe? Against static defenses? That makes no sense at all. Why even let them know you're there unless you're really going to bring it? Probes are to find out where the enemy is. Mance knew exactly where the enemy was already. Only an all-out attack made sense.


Edited by Hodor's Dragon

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Giving it a 6. I didn't have huge expectations going in as I'm not a fan of the whole Wall storyline and since that was all the episode was about I had fairly low expectations but I WAS super excited to see Stannis arrive and then...no Stannis this episode [note: I'm not a Stannis fanatic or anything, I just really like it when he arrived at the Wall in the book. I was not expecting it].



I thought the way Slynt was portrayed was weird -- cartoonish even. Poor writing of the character. Yes, he's an a-hole but to deny seeing mammoths and giants and then go hiding was just silly.



I also didn't think the Sam/Gilly scenes were necessary. Getting to be annoying like Tyrion and Shae. Same dialog over and over again. And was Gilly really about to just sneak past the Wildling group, carrying a baby? Really?



I did like the mammoths and giants - glad they were included. Makes North of the wall more interesting.



I also liked seeing Maester Aemon -- had to wonder who the girl was.

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Whenever I read someone saying that a book can never be put on the big or little screen exactly, I


always think of the Brideshead Revisited miniseries with Jeremy Irons and Anthony Andrews. I literally


read along in the book the last time I rewatched it on Bravo. John Mortimer (the Rumpole guy) did


the screen adaptation I think and that has to be the easiest money anyone ever made. It is literally


word for word. Okay, there are no giants, dragons, battles, etc but stop saying it can never be done.


And for something a little more challenging, I can't remember too many deviations from the book in


Gone with the Wind either.



And these are two books I love dearly and two adaptations I have watched countless times.


Because no one felt the need to "surprise" me.


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Whenever I read someone saying that a book can never be put on the big or little screen exactly, I

always think of the Brideshead Revisited miniseries with Jeremy Irons and Anthony Andrews. I literally

read along in the book the last time I rewatched it on Bravo. John Mortimer (the Rumpole guy) did

the screen adaptation I think and that has to be the easiest money anyone ever made. It is literally

word for word. Okay, there are no giants, dragons, battles, etc but stop saying it can never be done.

And for something a little more challenging, I can't remember too many deviations from the book in

Gone with the Wind either.

And these are two books I love dearly and two adaptations I have watched countless times.

Because no one felt the need to "surprise" me.

:agree: The first season of the GoT was so popular BECAUSE it was an accurate adaptation of AGOT. I do not see any value in this butchery. I do think it is damaging the story and at this stage really confusing the show audience. Also, I do understand the need of the producers to hide a possibility of R+L=J, but not for four whole seasons. Show viewers haven't seen a hint of that so far. To them, Jon is Ned's son and that's it. It's just silly. If R+L=J is true, it will not be the only twist by the end of this, so I don't see any point in hiding all the hints from the show. Furthermore, the show completely ignores dreams, prophecies and lore that have a huge significance in the books. Even animated additions to each season that go with the DVDs and can be found on You Tube do not contain enough information for the viewers to really get the gist of the story background and magical elements. There are many unnecessary and pointless scenes in the show, such as Greyworm/Myssandei "love story". I do not see their purpose. GRRM has not written these story lines. It is one thing to extend an existing storyline and quite the other to invent them. The whole episode nine is a fanfic. Not a single thing is taken from the books. Why? What's the purpose? It should be an adaptation, not a fan fiction.

Edited by Modesty Lannister

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