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How would you rate episode 409?  

896 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      33
    • 2
      13
    • 3
      13
    • 4
      21
    • 5
      36
    • 6
      45
    • 7
      80
    • 8
      139
    • 9
      215
    • 10
      298


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:agree: The first season of the GoT was so popular BECAUSE it was an accurate adaptation of AGOT. I do not see any value in this butchery. I do think it is damaging the story and at this stage really confusing the show audience. Also, I do understand the need of the producers to hide a possibility of R+L=J, but not for four whole seasons. Show viewers haven't seen a hint of that so far. To them, Jon is Ned's son and that's it. It's just silly. If R+L=J is true, it will not be the only twist by the end of this, so I don't see any point in hiding all the hints from the show. Furthermore, the show completely ignores dreams, prophecies and lore that have a huge significance in the books. Even animated additions to each season that go with the DVDs and can be found on You Tube do not contain enough information for the viewers to really get the gist of the story background and magical elements. There are many unnecessary and pointless scenes in the show, such as Greyworm/Myssandei "love story". I do not see their purpose. GRRM has not written these story lines. It is one thing to extend an existing storyline and quite the other to invent them. The whole episode nine is a fanfic. Not a single thing is taken from the books. Why? What's the purpose? It should be an adaptation, not a fan fiction.

Then why is it more popular now than it was in Season 1?

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Am I the only one who thinks Jon walking out the gate might be the last we see of this storyline this season? There isn't a lot of good source material left after ASoS. Maybe the battle for the wall stretches into next season. Jon is obviously one of the leads in this show and he doesn't do a hell of a lot that makes for great television in the next 2 books.



I gave it an 8. Here's why:



1) Killing Pyp and Grenn was unnecessary. For the casual non-reader viewer, they weren't significant deaths. Most people I've talked to had no idea who they were. For the reader, at least for me, they were very important characters. They are Jon's boys, his support team and without them he really has nobody for his upcoming political battles. The scenes with them and Sam are some of the best from AFFC. They were senseless deaths that really had no impact on the drama and tension of the episode for most viewers.



2) I also blame GRRM for creating way too much hype for this battle with his interviews and blog posts (how about just writing and stay out of the media George). I, along with most fans, anticipated a lot and we got 3 Giants and a Mammoth attacking the gate and 10 guys climbing. One guy on the wall with some arrows and oil could've taken that down. The scythe was completely unnecessary. What exactly were the 10 climbers gonna do when they got to the top and faced 50 or so sworn brothers of the nights watch?



I think they missed a huge opportunity with Slynt and Gilly in the larder. If you're gonna make him a bumbling comic villain then you had an chance to have Gilly berate him as a coward.



I loved seeing it. Jon on top of the wall, the view down, the giants marching and riding mammoths. All that was epic and judging it purely on the basis of the show, it was one of the top 5 or 10 episodes. But they keep making these little mistakes that frustrates the hell out of an avid fan like me.


Edited by Steelegrave

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582 votes, 7.96 average, 10 median, 8.22 normalized average, 85% "fresh".

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9.



I agree that they should not have cut it off before Stannis saved the day. That's his big moment, and instead of it being a climactic ending, it's just going to be some other scene that's forgotten amid buzz over events at King's Landing. No surprise, however, considering that D&D have turned Stannis from an underdog into an antagonist. Whatever takes the wind out of his sails, I reckon.



I also didn't like that they wimped out on Ygritte's death, although it was predictable as soon as that kid piped up about being the best shot in his village. Instead of Jon coming to grips with the fact that he could have - and for all intents and purposes, did - kill Ygritte, we just get some cliche Romeo and Juliet moment. Killing more of Jon's buddies was also gratuitous.



That said, the battle itself was awesome. They did a great job of capturing its enormous scope - the size of the wildling horde, the size of the wall, etc. The giants and mammoths were ferocious. The fight-scene choreography was excellent. Loved that they let Ghost loose.


Edited by Anarchosaurus Rex

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I gave it a 9.5



For me it was better than Blackwater. I was more invested in the threat facing the characters and enjoyed the displays of heroism and humour sprinkled through the epicness- it was more than just the effects. I was really feeling the characters. They all stepped up and accepted their fate- Grenn and the Vow scene was beyond touching. They were fighting for survival (all brothers in arms) and not just the usual power grab which made it unique for GoT. The whole thing was entertaining and movie worthy.



My only criticism (preventing a 10/10) is finishing 8 minutes early and not including the whole battle and Stannis showing up. Dragging it out to next week degrades the whole thing as other, more exciting events will be happening. They should have ended the episode with Stannis turning up and the battle ending.



I did enjoy that Jon was the hero of the final scene (being all matyr) but he could have easily had his shinning moment in the final with the LC election. However, I doubt we will be getting that now. He was great though and Kit did awesome.



Overall, this will become a re-watch favourite! Awesome episode!

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The World's Biggest WIndshield Wiper clearing the pesky climbers-- several characters we've grown to know over the past 4 seasons killing each other. Janos vs. his shit-stained pants.

Thank you for providing one of the few moments of levity on this thread. :)

Also I don't know about anyone else, but i felt a bit sad when the two giants died?

I actually cried out at the death of the first one, "That better not be Wun Wun!" Poor giant. :(

Effect of D&D's adaptation. Stannis the Mannis is so blackwashed.

Couldn't help myself. I loled for a while. :D

Just vote what you really feel about the episode, and don't worry about what anyone else says.

I can't figure out why people are changing their votes simply because of the opinions of others ... easily swayed maybe? :dunno:

:D

Your avatar is perfect! It gets a 10/10 from me. :D

Did anyone else enjoy how Jon subdued (for a lack of a better word) Tormund? He totally owned that scene. Tormund's going to have a new found respect for Jonny boy.

Oh man. I had an image of Robert's Rebellion Ned in that scene. Fantastic! Yep, Jon is becoming Ned Stark II.

but I absolutely LOVED Thorne in this episode, they made him into one BAMF. Of we both live you can go on hating me and I can go on wishing that wilding bitch of yours finished the job lol

As did I! I felt guilty for hating him all these years ... I actually cheered for him ("GO ALLISER!!!") three different times! I'm still in shock. :P

For example, Missandei & GreyWorm. I don't see any value in that romance story. The hint there being that GW may not be a eunuch (fine, it's a change from the books for what we know now) just goes against everything we've been given/shown/told. if we find out in the next book that GW isn't actually a eunuch (somehow) and there is a romance for him, cool.

Whereas I got the impression that they were trying to humanise GreyWorm ... make him more than a baby/puppy-killing murder machine; someone who can appreciate beauty, and is trying to figure out human emotions.

Mind you, that's just my take on it, and it made me wanna hug GreyWorm, where in the books I would've been running in the opposite direction at the sight of him and his army.

A message to all who are getting a little hot under the collar...

Why let an arbitrary number that somebody attributes to an episode of a TV show affect you so much? Just let it wash over you. Nothing is going to happen based on these ratings, you do know that right?

It's certainly not worth getting enraged over.

Like +100 (were it possible).

:cheers:

The whole episode nine is a fanfic. Not a single thing is taken from the books. Why? What's the purpose? It should be an adaptation, not a fan fiction.

I'm still waiting on a definition of fanfiction. No one has been able to clarify the difference of adaptation and fanfiction clearly enough for my satisfaction. Any takers? O.O Please?

Edited by Wolfox6

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Usually I don't care about the wall storylines at all. Even in the books I find myself kind of skim reading a little bit because it just doesn't interest me. This episode, however, is the first in the series that's had my full attention from start to finish (which admittedly wasn't difficult seeing as the episode itself wasn't very long) I was completely emotionally invested, which was a bad idea seeing as Pyp and Grenn died.


Even the initial scenes with Sam chatting with Jon and Aemon were interesting - the acting was great.



The show was never going to please everyone, just reading the comments shows it. On one side, you've got people arguing that there wasn't enough fighting, that the action scenes were poor or not of high quality. On the other you have people arguing that there should have been more plot and less action overall. It just highlights the fact that there will never be an episode that pleases everyone. Especially seeing as this forum loves to criticize each episode so harshly... (don't kill me for saying that, oh god)



I loved nearly everything. It felt like such a break from the normal structure of each episode, and I think that's what was needed after last week. Yeah it would've been great for Stanny to show up at the end, but the omittance of him doesn't render the episode as complete shit. I think including the scene of his arrival, scotch-taped onto the end, would've felt very rushed. Save it for the final episode, and make it the best finale yet.



Edited to add that Thorne is a fucking boss.


Edited by Autumn is Coming

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Also, personally, I loved the way the show handled her death. After all the talk about wanting to kill Jon, in the end, her love for him caused hesitation and it cost her her life. I also loved that Jon, upon seeing her, simply smiled.. even though she was pointing an arrow at him at the time, his happiness in seeing her over ruled the fact that he may be about to die. "Blah, blah, bloah, it was teh cheezy?!?".. well, it's a TV show and it made for interesting TV.

I did not notice him smiling, so I went back to look, and after seeing that smile... I just couldn't carry on watching. I'd thought that bit was the episode's weak point, but now I can't handle the fact that YGRITTE DIES! I knew it was going to happen, but now it hurts almost as bad as when I read it in the book!

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I gave it a 9.5

For me it was better than Blackwater. I was more invested in the threat facing the characters and enjoyed the displays of heroism and humour sprinkled through the epicness- it was more than just the effects. I was really feeling the characters. They all stepped up and accepted their fate- Grenn and the Vow scene was beyond touching. They were fighting for survival (all brothers in arms) and not just the usual power grab which made it unique for GoT. The whole thing was entertaining and movie worthy.

My only criticism (preventing a 10/10) is finishing 8 minutes early and not including the whole battle and Stannis showing up. Dragging it out to next week degrades the whole thing as other, more exciting events will be happening. They should have ended the episode with Stannis turning up and the battle ending.

I did enjoy that Jon was the hero of the final scene (being all matyr) but he could have easily had his shinning moment in the final with the LC election. However, I doubt we will be getting that now. He was great though and Kit did awesome.

Overall, this will become a re-watch favourite! Awesome episode!

I concur.

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I'd also like to add, randomly, that I've read some reviews online this morning and a few say, in a negative way, that the show messed up by having Jon see who killed Ygritte. They say that in the book, Jon wasn't sure if he was the one that killed her. Hmm... am I wrong in remembering that Jon knew he didn't kill her thanks to the type of feathers in the arrow shaft? They were different than what he used during the battle.

Also, personally, I loved the way the show handled her death. After all the talk about wanting to kill Jon, in the end, her love for him caused hesitation and it cost her her life. I also loved that Jon, upon seeing her, simply smiled.. even though she was pointing an arrow at him at the time, his happiness in seeing her over ruled the fact that he may be about to die. "Blah, blah, bloah, it was teh cheezy?!?".. well, it's a TV show and it made for interesting TV.

"It's Not TV. It's HBO"

that's the whole point of my disdain for this adaptation, the whole point

along with their other recent mediocre fan pleasing series they're just TV

Edited by Andrey

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Then why is it more popular now than it was in Season 1?

Because a fan base isn't created over night.

10/10 I loved this episode. Definitely one of the best episodes EVER!!!!

... :bang:

Edited by Gregor's Nancy Boy

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"It's Not TV. It's HBO"

that's the whole point of my disdain for this adaptation, the whole point

along with their other recent mediocre fan pleasing series they're just TV

It really is a shame that ASOIAF isn't getting the adaptation it deserves. We had such high hopes after Season 1.

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I'm still waiting on a definition of fanfiction. No one has been able to clarify the difference of adaptation and fanfiction clearly enough for my satisfaction. Any takers? O.O Please?

It's not that difficult to define fan fiction. The cannon and characters remain, but the plot is invented by fans - D&D in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_fiction

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It really is a shame that ASOIAF isn't getting the adaptation it deserves. We had such high hopes after Season 1.

well yes but i think that roots and "foreshadowing" and early signs of how will this develop could be seen in some scenes in season 1

And Cersei was already changed a lot, etc.

Eddard killing his Sansa's direwolf lady with regular knife instead of with Ice after he protested from unworthly execution from Payne's sword, etc.

Edited by Andrey

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It's not that difficult to define fan fiction. The cannon and characters remain, but the plot is invented by fans - D&D in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_fiction

Do you mean canon?

I appreciate the link, but I never go to Wikipedia for a clearly defined definition (i.e., Wikipedia is not a dictionary).

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id only give it a 5. the episode was very entertaining, and the battle scenes were awesome. However, being a reader of the books, i am dissappointed in the overall structure of the episode, and not just this one, most of the scenes from the wall have been changed imo for the worst. It all startedwith jon having to deal with the mutineers beyond the wall. it was a plot line not derived from the books and imo that should have been relpaced that with the wildlings storming castle black from the south. they could have then added the first siege from from notrh off the wall an episode or so earlier and then had another one this past episode plus jon going beyond the wall to treat with mance, then the arrival of stannis at the end of the episode. i think this could have added clarity to what all is happening up at the wall plus t would have freed some space to better explain what is going to happen is episode ten becasue from what i know they will need to cover a lot of plot points as well as leaving some out either for good or next season. anyways this is only my opinion, i love thrones and i love all 4 seasons but i think it coulda been better feel free to tear this apart or agree its all for the good of the real

perfectly said. Very entertaining. The acting has been superb and casting has been first rate, and has been generally (Dario :bs: ) from the start. However in my mind season 4, and the whole way the wall was handled in season 4, has been the first sign that the producers may not be up to the task to carry off this adaptation, though it might be beyond anyone's considering the wealth and depth of the source material. So much useless, made up BS earlier in the season and because of it we got a rushed battle compressed into one episode that lost it's epic scope. any attachment to the men fighting such odds (though the episode sure failed in that. A handful of men and a couple of giants) AND what could have and should have been THE climax which was Stannis arriving. Even as little as 15 to 20 minutes of screen time earlier in the season in place of the 'made up' TV scenes could have given the characters on the wall much more depth, and an climax that didn't leave you unfulfilled. I love the books, but felt nothing when Grenn and Pyp died. I had not attachment as a TV viewer to them. I didnt' even feel it for Ygritte and her death in the books nearly brought a tear to these otherwise jaded eyes. lol

I guess my point and overall fear is, highlighted by this episode, is that D&D will not be able to be up to the task of next season when characters splinter to new different locations and new VITAL characters are (will be right?) introduced. Time will be mighty tight for all the established beloved characters, with time needed for the new ones to be introduced and developed, AND for time make up to continue previous D&D plot inventions/deviations.

IF episode 9 was rushed, episode 10 willl exceed that by all they need to cover, and season 5 might lap both in.

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EDITED FOR MY SCORE- 5/10



my rant; the action of of it was pretty amazing, but i felt like D&D have been dragging this out far too long. I had read about how season 4 was going to be the post-RW to the end of book 3. okay. But i've been discussing the end of the book events with my brother and friends, and there is so much that has to happen that i don't think there will be enough time in the final episode for EVERYTHING to happen. D&D could have done a lot better. The episode where Jon goes to craster's keep was very unnecessary and pointless. it didn't do anything to add to the storyline. I mean the battle of blackwater bay episode was its own episode. They couldve had the wildings raid CB from the beginning and go from there. and correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't there a whole battle with NW brothers and wildings protecting the gate? I dont remember Grenn dying. And the fact that John going on his own to treat with Mance is total bullshit. He was basically forced to do it to test if he was a traitor or a sworn brother in ASoS.



My rant for the finale; why the hell is Dany even in it? When she dismisses Jorah in ASoS, that is her last part in the book. And that already happened in episode 8. So why is she being shown? Why is Bran have a part too? Unless it is finally going to include Coldhands, I see no point to his scene. And then the glimpse of Cersei talking to Tywin and Cersei making out with Jaime? I am so confused as is what is going to happen in the finale that I am pretty annoyed. this season had a lot of hype to live up to and once again i am thoroughly disappointed. The shit with Arya, Tyrion, John/Stannis and Lady Stoneheart should ONLY be in the finale.



maybe i'm being too much of a stickler and a hopeful reader for everything that happens in the books should happen in the show verbatim, but i don't see how fans of the books can keep watching hbo destroy the books any longer, even with the miniscule storyline changes


Edited by aovalle

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