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How would you rate episode 409?  

896 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      33
    • 2
      13
    • 3
      13
    • 4
      21
    • 5
      36
    • 6
      45
    • 7
      80
    • 8
      139
    • 9
      215
    • 10
      298


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I think the major problem people are dancing around here in the more negative reviews is perfectly underlined by what the book reader critic for the AV Club had to say about the episode. I found it absolutely spectacular from a production standpoint, and I'm a sucker for big battles (so I really enjoyed it), but I can completely see where he's coming from. I think he really captures the issue that held it back from fully matching the quality of 'Blackwater,' and it's even more frustrating when you realize this problem could have been entirely avoided by stretching the episode out a little longer and including the Mance parlay and the Stannis charge. It was still the best episode of the season from my perspective, but it could have been the best episode ever, and that qualifies as a disappointment in my book.





This is a big moment in Jon’s arc. He loses Ygritte, and he essentially becomes the only person who can take command of the Night’s Watch in a moment when all hope seems lost. But not only does the show give this moment far too little weight; it also finds itself stretching the story out past this episode, so that this hour depicts only the first night of the Battle of Castle Black. Without spoiling how the other nights go or how the battle resolves itself, I can say that this is so ridiculously unimportant to not just the overall arc of this particular storyline but also the arc of the full battle itself that blowing it up to “Blackwater” proportions is just kind of pointless. The episode ends on a cliffhanger that only makes things seem more like we saw an episode entirely designed to show off how impressive the series’ budget is.

Edited by Haldir Monark

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True...why do the dirty work yourself when you have peons to do it for you?

I can totally imagine him in Office Space now XD

Lol, now imagining Tyrion's dinner with Janos is book/season 2:

Tyrion (reading a royal proclomation): Very nice -- Lord Janos, is it now?

Slynt (beaming): Why yes it is. A fair day's wage for a fair day's work.

Tyrion: So, when the Queen needs somebody murdered, she has you do it? Why wouldn't she just have her own men do it?

Slynt: Well, you see, her men are really her father's men -- your father's men, and the Gold Cloaks, well, we serve the King, and she is his regent. And Lannister guards -- well, they're not from here. If you want somebody murdered in King's Landing, you need somebody who knows King's Landing, and who knows King's Landing better than the Gold Cloaks sworn to protect it?

Tyrion: OK, so when you get a "kill" order, you actually go out and take care of the matter for the Queen?

Slynt: Yes, of course. I mean, no, not exactly -- depending on the circumstances, I'll have Allar Deem, or one of my other trusted men, actually go out and take care of the job.

Tyrion: So, why does Cersei need *you*, then? Couldn't she just speak to the brave Allar Deem himself?

Slynt: Not exactly. See, Deem, him and most of my men are what you'd call "smallfolk", and royalty can't really be seen consorting with them.

Tyrion: So the queen actually summons you personally and gives you the orders?

Slynt: Yes...well, no, not exactly. I am a Lord now, but she's still used to dealing with Littlefinger -- I mean, Lord Baelish, so she usually gives him the orders, and he gives them to me. But sometimes, I'm right outside the room they're in while she's giving him my orders.

[slynt reaches for a bottle of wine, but Tyrion grabs it first, tilts back his head, and drains it.]

[Tyrion blots the wine from his lips with Slynt's proclomation.]

Tyrion: So, what exactly would you say, you do here?

Slynt (flushed): Look, Imp, I already told you...I deal with the killers so that the Queen doesn't have to. I have people skills. I am good at dealing with people. I betrayed Ned Stark for you and made sure he died just like Lord Baelish told me the King wanted!

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Disclaimer: I judge the episodes on their own merits. I put no expectations on them based of what I've read.



9/10


- Choreography was phenomenal. Ser Alliser vs Tormund, Jon vs. Styr, and even the extra's fights were well down. Sure, it wasn't The Raid quality 10/10, but it's probably the best I've seen on TV.


- Cinematography. Tell me that one minute sweeping crane take wasn't impressive. I think it's the single most impressive shot in GoT. I think Neil Marshall did leagues better establishing the scale of this battle. I felt that was Black Waters' biggest problem.


- CGI was really good. The scythe scene was excellent.


- The editing was great as well. I really like the decision to have the fighting continuous for a 20 minute period. Also, the editing was less chopping than in the Black Water episode.


- Ygritte's death scene was a little too corny for my liking.



Overall, this is very much a Neil Marshall production. This episode very much reminded me of Dog Soldiers (the buildup to battle, a confrontation that you don't see, the bastards of the group becoming likable). I'll probably get stoned for this, but Black Water, to me, is a 6/10. This episode was a marked improvement for Mr. Marshall.


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Disclaimer: I judge the episodes on their own merits. I put no expectations on them based of what I've read.

9/10

- Choreography was phenomenal. Ser Alliser vs Tormund, Jon vs. Styr, and even the extra's fights were well down. Sure, it wasn't The Raid quality 10/10, but it's probably the best I've seen on TV.

- Cinematography. Tell me that one minute sweeping crane take wasn't impressive. I think it's the single most impressive shot in GoT. I think Neil Marshall did leagues better establishing the scale of this battle. I felt that was Black Waters' biggest problem.

- CGI was really good. The scythe scene was excellent.

- The editing was great as well. I really like the decision to have the fighting continuous for a 20 minute period. Also, the editing was less chopping than in the Black Water episode.

- Ygritte's death scene was a little too corny for my liking.

Overall, this is very much a Neil Marshall production. This episode very much reminded me of Dog Soldiers (the buildup to battle, a confrontation that you don't see, the bastards of the group becoming likable). I'll probably get stoned for this, but Black Water, to me, is a 6/10. This episode was a marked improvement for Mr. Marshall.

I agree with most of your points here.

I gave Blackwater an 8, and realistically I was going to give this a 9 until I realised that I had cheered for Alliser 3 separate times! 3 times, ffs! So it got an extra full point from me. I'm still shaking my head over that ...

Neil Marshall only had a few days (a week or so) to prepare for Blackwater, whereas he had several weeks/months to prepare for this one.

And the first time I watched, yep, corny Ygritte death. Second watch? I teared up. :stillsnifflling:

Oh! Welcome to the board! :D :cheers:

Edited by Wolfox6

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I agree with most of your points here.

I gave Blackwater an 8, and realistically I was going to give this a 9 until I realised that I had cheered for Alliser 3 separate times! 3 times, ffs! So it got an extra full point from me. I'm still shaking my head over that ...

Neil Marshall only had a few days (a week or so) to prepare for Blackwater, whereas he had several weeks/months to prepare for this one.

And the first time I watched, yep, corny Ygritte death. Second watch? I teared up. :stillsnifflling:

Oh! Welcome to the board! :D :cheers:

I was hit much more with the deaths on subsequent viewings...I think I was so caught up in the action of what was going on that they didn't have time to sink in for me the first time. But then I watched it again, and I definitely teared up at Pyp, Grenn and Ygritte's deaths.

Edited by sj4iy

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798 votes, 8.00 average, 10 median, 8.26 normalized average, 86% "fresh" (i.e 86% of votes are 6 or higher).

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I loved the giants and mammoths...they looked amazing! Ghost kicked ass! The whole scope was epic. I really enjoyed that one long shot of the whole battle-impressive. Jon Snow finally coming into his own was satisfying. Very sad about Pyp. Would have loved to see Stannis but there hasn't really been much set up in the show for it. The last we've seen him on the show wasn't he in Braavos with Davos asking for money?


I am very curious how they are going to handle Mance since the show is obviously going in a very different direction. Will we get Val and how would work even? So, jumping ahead but I am looking forward to the episode where Stannis offers Jon to be a Stark and marry Val..if it will even happen?!


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I did think it was oddly appropriate that Pyp died from a vicious neck wound. Anybody that's seen Josef Altin in Eastern Promises knows what I'm talking about.



"I got tickets to Chelsea!"


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Nope, me and some guys at work talked about this as well. That might be it for him this season.

EDIT: never mind. I saw him in the promo.

Yeah I don't watch the promos but someone told me about them.

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798 votes, 8.00 average, 10 median, 8.26 normalized average, 86% "fresh" (i.e 86% of votes are 6 or higher).

Sorry to be that guy, but shouldn't the median be 9?

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You're both right of course, come to think of it. A mode is the highest number in a statistical range of values. A median is the middle number between the three highest values in a statistical series. 8 would be an average. The median is 9. Very pedantic, however, people, but technically you are right.


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You're both right of course, come to think of it. A mode is the highest number in a statistical range of values. A median is the middle number between the three highest values in a statistical series. 8 would be an average. The median is 9. Very pedantic, however, people, but technically you are right.

Well, the average poster who corrects statistics on an Internet forum is a pedant, so there you go :D

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I gave it a 7. I originally would have rated it a 5, but I've done two rewatches since Sunday night and I have to say the episode was better the second and third time around than I thought it was in my original estimation. However, I'm still baffled by their choice to have Jon voluntarily go out beyond the Wall to try and assassinate Mance Rayder. In a sane world, Jon should know that the wildlings would kill him before he got within 100 yards of Mance. At least in the books it made sense...he was being forced out beyond the Wall and given that he was going out to parley with the wildlings...at least they might want to hear what he had to say. But with this there isn't even that much.



And I'm going to jump on the bandwagon of those wondering why the episodes are so short.


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I gave it a 7. I originally would have rated it a 5, but I've done two rewatches since Sunday night and I have to say the episode was better the second and third time around than I thought it was in my original estimation. However, I'm still baffled by their choice to have Jon voluntarily go out beyond the Wall to try and assassinate Mance Rayder. In a sane world, Jon should know that the wildlings would kill him before he got within 100 yards of Mance. At least in the books it made sense...he was being forced out beyond the Wall and given that he was going out to parley with the wildlings...at least they might want to hear what he had to say. But with this there isn't even that much.

And I'm going to jump on the bandwagon of those wondering why the episodes are so short.

He's still going to parley this time around, too. It seems like the same situation, just a different person making the decision.

I do wish the episodes had been a bit longer this season.

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I gave it a 7. I originally would have rated it a 5, but I've done two rewatches since Sunday night and I have to say the episode was better the second and third time around than I thought it was in my original estimation. However, I'm still baffled by their choice to have Jon voluntarily go out beyond the Wall to try and assassinate Mance Rayder. In a sane world, Jon should know that the wildlings would kill him before he got within 100 yards of Mance. At least in the books it made sense...he was being forced out beyond the Wall and given that he was going out to parley with the wildlings...at least they might want to hear what he had to say. But with this there isn't even that much.

And I'm going to jump on the bandwagon of those wondering why the episodes are so short.

Yeah, it was an OK entertaining episode but as far as at being an epic episode that was equal to the Blackwater it was a bit of a disappointment and I think the episode poll accurately reflects that.

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I gave it a 7. I originally would have rated it a 5, but I've done two rewatches since Sunday night and I have to say the episode was better the second and third time around than I thought it was in my original estimation. However, I'm still baffled by their choice to have Jon voluntarily go out beyond the Wall to try and assassinate Mance Rayder. In a sane world, Jon should know that the wildlings would kill him before he got within 100 yards of Mance. At least in the books it made sense...he was being forced out beyond the Wall and given that he was going out to parley with the wildlings...at least they might want to hear what he had to say. But with this there isn't even that much.

And I'm going to jump on the bandwagon of those wondering why the episodes are so short.

I think --and I could be wrong-- that they added the "Jon ranges to Craster's scene" to cover the Slynt/Thorne trying to get Jon killed thing.... If I recall, in the books Slynt & Thorne were at Eastwatch bts for the battle.... The change might be to help sell Jon's viability to be voted LC to a TV audience, who don't get all of the nuance we all got from the books,,,,

and I agree.... episodes are too short.... my wife yells at the TV every week at 9:52 :)

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I think --and I could be wrong-- that they added the "Jon ranges to Craster's scene" to cover the Slynt/Thorne trying to get Jon killed thing.... If I recall, in the books Slynt & Thorne were at Eastwatch bts for the battle.... The change might be to help sell Jon's viability to be voted LC to a TV audience, who don't get all of the nuance we all got from the books,,,,

and I agree.... episodes are too short.... my wife yells at the TV every week at 9:52 :)

I thought the same thing as you about CK- that was Thorne and Slynt's plan to get him killed off in the show. I do like that they gave the suicide parley mission decision to Jon, though...it really reflected a lot about what he was going through emotionally after all that he had just been through in a way that being sent out would not have.

Of course, we might just be spoiled from the fact that there are no commercials XD

Edited by sj4iy

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