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How would you rate episode 409?  

896 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      33
    • 2
      13
    • 3
      13
    • 4
      21
    • 5
      36
    • 6
      45
    • 7
      80
    • 8
      139
    • 9
      215
    • 10
      298


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802 votes, 8.0 average, 9 median (heh), 8.26 normalized average, 86% fresh.

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I think I've figured out why this episode just doesn't live up to a usual GoT episode for me. It's a book reader thing and that's something I'll never turn off. I really do like the Wall story line regardless of if Jon is a Mary Sue/Cliché Hero/Special Snowflake or any other meaningless trope name. I've always enjoyed Jon's chapters, and Samwell. I like the Night's Watch and most of the characters up there... but the show has just not given this story line any of the greatness it has from the books. We only get a few central characters in the show whereas in the books we get a lot more. The show has always (IMO) struggled with making the Wall an interesting storyline. the best was probably Jon getting aquainted there. The worst was probably season two, particularly the latter half of Jon's story, the ending, and the terrible follow-up in S3 they did (budget reasons? no excuse. don't set up big epic battle if you can't follow through with even one visual like Tyrion S1). Nothing in this episode was engaging for me. I know the outcome and though I didn't expect Grenn to die, I knew for certain that Sam and Jon would survive, it's just a matter of how. The characters were not engaging and the storyline is not engaging.... The episode is executed remarkably well, and I'll even give it a guilty pleasure point for the giant metal scythe... but I don't think I'd give it anything higher than a 6 now.


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I think I've figured out why this episode just doesn't live up to a usual GoT episode for me. It's a book reader thing and that's something I'll never turn off. I really do like the Wall story line regardless of if Jon is a Mary Sue/Cliché Hero/Special Snowflake or any other meaningless trope name. I've always enjoyed Jon's chapters, and Samwell. I like the Night's Watch and most of the characters up there... but the show has just not given this story line any of the greatness it has from the books. We only get a few central characters in the show whereas in the books we get a lot more. The show has always (IMO) struggled with making the Wall an interesting storyline. the best was probably Jon getting aquainted there. The worst was probably season two, particularly the latter half of Jon's story, the ending, and the terrible follow-up in S3 they did (budget reasons? no excuse. don't set up big epic battle if you can't follow through with even one visual like Tyrion S1). Nothing in this episode was engaging for me. I know the outcome and though I didn't expect Grenn to die, I knew for certain that Sam and Jon would survive, it's just a matter of how. The characters were not engaging and the storyline is not engaging.... The episode is executed remarkably well, and I'll even give it a guilty pleasure point for the giant metal scythe... but I don't think I'd give it anything higher than a 6 now.

Well considering how D&D didn't develop/flesh out the characters/storylines at the Wall, Jon (or rather Kit) and gang did a pretty awesome job this episode. Kudos to them for that.

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i would have given it a 10 if stannis had arrived. they really could have fit that in. i think they just wanted to have a cliffhanger for jon too. this episode could have just been long and next week shorter (or regular length). i would still give it a 9


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I give it a 10/10. Even as a book reader my heart was beating so fast i was on the edge on my seat. The only thing i would have changed is made the episode longer and have Stannis save the day in this one, not the next. But overall it was amazing, for those giving a low score ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?? i guess not... :dunno:

This. Although as a reader I think they made the right decision holding off on Stannis. Let Jon have his moment. I gave it a 10/10 based on the fact that I will rewatch and enjoy this episode for years to come, as I do Blackwater & Baelor. Really struggling to understand the 0s. Best part was Jon looking down on the fire from the Wall. Chills

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I think I've figured out why this episode just doesn't live up to a usual GoT episode for me. It's a book reader thing and that's something I'll never turn off. I really do like the Wall story line regardless of if Jon is a Mary Sue/Cliché Hero/Special Snowflake or any other meaningless trope name. I've always enjoyed Jon's chapters, and Samwell. I like the Night's Watch and most of the characters up there... but the show has just not given this story line any of the greatness it has from the books....The characters were not engaging and the storyline is not engaging.... The episode is executed remarkably well, and I'll even give it a guilty pleasure point for the giant metal scythe... but I don't think I'd give it anything higher than a 6 now.

I think you've touched on why I've felt so disatisfied with the Wall storyline on the show, even though that is one of my favorite storylines in the books. I think there is a nearly unanimous consensus that the best thing about GoT and ASOIAF is the intrigue, the backstabbing and the struggle for power. And you see that in spades in the King's Landing scenes...nearly all of them are dealing with that. The same is going on to a lesser extent with Dany's storyline in the show...but the Wall scenes have been nearly bereft of intrigue, even though in the books there is a lot of intrigue going on at the Wall. But the show has cut nearly all of that...Jon's return, the vacuum of power left with Mormont's death, Thorne and Slynt plotting against Jon, etc., in favor of sending Jon out beyond the Wall again to kill a bunch of deserters. They're more focused on the action at the Wall, when, aside from the wildling attack, that's the least important aspect of the Wall storyline. Hopefully that will change in season 5 as there will be even more opportunity for intrigue.

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I think you've touched on why I've felt so disatisfied with the Wall storyline on the show, even though that is one of my favorite storylines in the books. I think there is a nearly unanimous consensus that the best thing about GoT and ASOIAF is the intrigue, the backstabbing and the struggle for power. And you see that in spades in the King's Landing scenes...nearly all of them are dealing with that. The same is going on to a lesser extent with Dany's storyline in the show...but the Wall scenes have been nearly bereft of intrigue, even though in the books there is a lot of intrigue going on at the Wall. But the show has cut nearly all of that...Jon's return, the vacuum of power left with Mormont's death, Thorne and Slynt plotting against Jon, etc., in favor of sending Jon out beyond the Wall again to kill a bunch of deserters. They're more focused on the action at the Wall, when, aside from the wildling attack, that's the least important aspect of the Wall storyline. Hopefully that will change in season 5 as there will be even more opportunity for intrigue.

Well I don't think there really was much Wall intrigue in the book prior to the battle, and the sudden Janos/Thorne plot at the end was really more of an annoyance to the reader rooting for poor Jon, and I don't know how that would play out visually. Probably be a universal facepalm from the viewers, like "Really? there's an army on their doorstep and everyones gonna die but these two soulless antagonists are more concerned about Jon fucking Snow???" And this was BEFORE he really became a potential candidate for LC. Having it happen more subtly a few episodes prior to the attack does seem a bit more realistic. The real intrigue begins once Stannis settles in.

Edited by Stannisneverlikedcats

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Moved from a wrong thread.

Watching the episode again, I noticed this, to my eye and ear , if one took each sequence as it appeared on the block flow chart , all would be , individually gems.

Neil Marshall put them on 'film' (isn't pixels these days?) that way, so I gave the show a 10 because Marshall did an ace job of scene composition.

However, and I don't know what happened, the sum of the parts are not as good as the parts.

This is all technical , to me, something seems disjoint , to my eye, in the editing.

Seems Marshall said the week before the showing that the VFX had only been completed ... that week!

I just seemed to be getting pinged by 'under-the-surface' disjunctions , like the editors ran out of time to smooth things.

The long tracking shot of the main courtyard of CB was fine, but then seemed elaborated again , in a way, as the fight progresses.

The injection of the personal interactions , much needed in a chaotic dramatic visual narrative , like this, did not seem, to me, to well transitioned or elaborated ... I kept getting the feel of 'hasty pasty' ... I have seen lots worse, just seemed more time was needed in the end-to-end composition.

Edited by boojam

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9 for me. The battle was really well managed, we got giants, mammoths, and enough blood; but the only reason it's not getting a 10 is because of what they've done to Gilly's character. How could she arrive unnoticed to Castle Black?
That's weird but as for the rest, no complaints.

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I'm a book-reader and a show-watcher. For me, one does not detract from the other.



I gave the episode a 9 because I felt it was too short. I disliked the rewrite of Ygritte's death (not that I'm opposed to rewriting things for show purposes). It was corny and if they had stuck more to the books and added a couple more minutes, it would have made it all the better.



I'm glad they left Stannis out of this episode, I can't stand him, should have named myself Traitor of Stannis.



The scythe, however, was brilliant even if pointless.


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I really liked this episode. I gave it an 8. It surprised me because I expected an entire episode about The Wall to be boring. This was anything but. The giants were really cool and the ice anchor thingy was cool. The deaths were sad.



Only thing I didn't like was Ghost not going with Jon at the end.


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Only thing I didn't like was Ghost not going with Jon at the end.

I noticed that too. I think he'll be there in the next episode (I hope). I think it must have been a budget issue since they spent a fortune creating ep 9. I was waiting for Ghost to pad up behind Jon as he left out the gate and that never happened. Who walks out beyond the wall alone at a time like this? I would have even been happy with a, "Ghost, with me."

Edited by Steve Stark

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I noticed that too. I think he'll be there in the next episode (I hope). I think it must have been a budget issue since they spent a fortune creating ep 9. I was waiting for Ghost to pad up behind Jon as he left out the gate and that never happened. Who walks out beyond the wall alone at a time like this? I would have even been happy with a, "Ghost, with me."

He was going to parlay with Mance and try to kill him. If he took Ghost he is more likely to be killed on sight I suppose as he is more threatening

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I give it a 7. There was some good action, but I'm not a big action fan. As for good conversations and good acting, very little. Even the nice scene with Maester Aemon didn't really work for me, because they were starting to get deep enough into what I already knew was a 50-minute episode that I was distracted by wondering how they'd get everything in. Turns out they couldn't.

There were definitely some high points. The fire, the scyth, the giants. Alliser humanizing himself a bit and stepping up in the clutch. The night's watch chant in the tunnel. Sam laying a big smacker on Gilly. Harrington is good at sword-fighting. They managed to make it relatively clear that the Wall was being defended from both sides, not so easy in a night battle.

But there were problems, too. Hell yeah, it was anti-climactic. Devote an episode to something, you want to make it a story to itself and I think viewers rightfully expected to get some resolution to the battle. And didn't, not at all. Nobody ever told Jon Snow the Wall was his, and while I'm usually the kind of sucker you throw a cheesy death scene at, Ygritte's was a little too schmaltzy/predictable. The unstoppable giant arrows that just stopped. Obvious technical issues with direwolf-human combat that means the 2 such "battles" we've scene this year both consisted of a direwolf blur steamrolling some guy from the side and wham bam, thank you ma'am, that's the entirety of what you call a human-direwolf fight. And I'd think with 104 guys to defend, somebody in charge would at least be estimating at some point how many had already bitten it and how many were left - I mean obviously, a big chunk of 104 will fight no more just from what we saw on TV. Also, as has been pointed out in this thread with pictorial evidence, Mance Rayder's gigungous wildling army was totally underwhelming. It seriously looked like there were more people attacking with Tormund and Ygritte from the south.

It was pretty good, but a cut below most of what we've seen during this outstanding season.

This!

I still remember watching Blackwater and man, I went insane! A battle is not made of simply smashing heads and screaming. When this episode was over I thought 'ok, what just happened?'. Game of Thrones has the power to change everything in a scene of like 5 minutes. But then we have a full episode where nothing really happens, with characters' motivation poorly built along the season and a frustrating end.

Shout out to Marshall, thought. It was visually perfect and I particularly liked the panning-scene.

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9 for me. The battle was really well managed, we got giants, mammoths, and enough blood; but the only reason it's not getting a 10 is because of what they've done to Gilly's character. How could she arrive unnoticed to Castle Black?

That's weird but as for the rest, no complaints.

I'm not sure how "realistically" she could go unnoticed, but they did address it when Ygritte & Co. were talking ish around the fire and sharpening arrows, Gilly walks by on the ridge and scurries along obviously hoping not to get noticed herself.

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Books 4 and 5 are dull and boring if you are a simpleton.

Or a violence obsessed teenage boy, which is what this dude sounds like.

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Books 4 and 5 were dull and boring because they were dull and boring, minus a few chapters. You're gonna judge a person entirely because they didn't like a book? How old are you? Haha.


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Books 4 and 5 were dull and boring because they were dull and boring, minus a few chapters. You're gonna judge a person entirely because they didn't like a book? How old are you? Haha.

Dull and boring? It focused too much on characters nobody really cares much about, yes, but this complaint sounds a whole lot like "WAAAAHHHH WHEN'S THE BATTLE GOING TO HAPPEN!" And that's just dumb.

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