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Snowisnobastard

(Show spoilers) how could they kill...

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i don't think any bookreader was shocked upon seeing grenn and the giant lying there dead.

pyp's death however, was much more powerfull.

Book readers, no. People who have never read the books? Yes. My MIL didn't see either of those deaths coming at all.

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Tormund will calm down later I hope and be more open to talks with Jon. He has too considering all there is to come.

I would bet anything that we see Jon and Tormund having talks while Tormund is recovering from his one billion arrow wounds XD I think Tormund will grow to respect Jon when he sees what kind of leader he is.

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Since we really have only Dolorous Edd. Slynt, Thorne, Sam, Jon and Aemon left as familiar faces on the Wall, it makes room for Stannis and his retinue next season. I was also sad to see them go.


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Dolorous Edd will definitly have a more expanded role next year. I'm really glad of this and loved him this episode.

But I am still so sad for Pyp.

Grenn's death is heroic as hell !

Tormund will calm down later I hope and be more open to talks with Jon. He has too considering all there is to come.

I hope so that they both will but it was still sad to see them both go.

I thought they would die and wasn't wrong...and their deaths added a tragic impact that the books didn't have at all, which I liked. If they were just going to leave the story by being sent away, anyway, better for them to die when it matters.

True enough at least Ygritte got it I'm sorry I couldn't stand her in the books or in the show either.

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I understand (sort of) why they killed Pyp and Grenn, but did they both have to die? Still they died well, especially Grenn. At least I know they are still alive in the book world, that is the most important.



Thank the gods they had enough sense not to kill Dolorous Edd...that would have been too much!



Oh and it was quite obvious to me that Thorne is still alive, just wounded. His character still has a part to play.


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I suspect this means Grenn and Pyp die soon in the book, since they felt it made no difference. At least it was a heroic death for Grenn.


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I was more surprised by Pyp's death than Grenn's. I didn't see Pyp's coming. But without Noye, Grenn seemed likely to end up with his job down there, and I love that he went out like that.


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Does this mean that GRRM has given the show runners a time line for all character's death? Maybe even a rating on how important they might be in future books? For example - Pyp dead 1/4 through WoW, importance rating 2/10.... What if this list fell into the wrong hands? It would be chaos!!!!!

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I suspect this means Grenn and Pyp die soon in the book, since they felt it made no difference. At least it was a heroic death for Grenn.

Jon sends them to Eastwatch at the beginning of ADWD, so I suspect it only means we won't ever be seeing Eastwatch in the books.

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Grenn and pyp? They're both still alive post adwd. Maybe d&d know that they get offed anyway and decided to just throw it in for more emotional impact

Hey, I'm still pissed about them killing off Rakharo, Irri and Jhiqui.

Pyp and Grenn are just more victims of "cast reduction syndrome", an often-fatal condition.

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Since we really have only Dolorous Edd. Slynt, Thorne, Sam, Jon and Aemon left as familiar faces on the Wall, it makes room for Stannis and his retinue next season. I was also sad to see them go.

Exactly. Next season there should finally be room in the show for Stannis to be great. I'm looking forward to it.

The Nights Watch will have 50 able bodied men left, at best, by the end of next episode. This will make them even more dependent on Stannis than in the book. The show is unlikely to show Stannis' military campaign against the Ironborne or to spend much time on Stannis rallying the North, so he will probably spend most of next season with Jon. Between Jon, Edd, Sam, Aemon, little kid, Slynt, Thorne, Gilly, Tormond, Mance, Stannis, Davos, Melisandre, Selyse, and Shireen, there will be ample named characters at the wall. Grenn and Pyp wouldn't have been more than glorified extras anyway - much better to kill them in this episode so that the battle had weight. I also like that Jon sent Grenn to his death; I think that was hanging over Jon when he decided to go on his suicide mission.

Further, I expect the show to play around with Sam's plot line to keep characters more connected and to keep the whole thing film-able. I thought Aemon might die in the battle for the Wall (especially when the wildlings were breaking into rooms!) and then the show could keep Sam and Gilly at the wall or could send them to Kings Landing or whatever. But I'm pretty sure the main point of Aemon's discussion with Sam was to emphasize that he has king's blood so they probably will go on a trip together. If they go to the maester school, I expect it to be in Bravos.

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So sad Pyp and Grenn died, but thought it might happen. Was worried they were going to kill off Tormund as well.


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I also like that Jon sent Grenn to his death; I think that was hanging over Jon when he decided to go on his suicide mission.

That and Ygritte dying in his arms. Jon Snow suicide-watch time.

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Man, I love Grenn and Pyp. I was a little shocked, but hey, it is Game of Thrones and people die, especially during a big battle. Grenn went out like a hero, and Pyp went out like a man also, no doubt.



At least we still got Edd.


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Nothing about the show surprises me anymore. In fact, it's kind of depressing now. I used to really defend the show writer's choices to off characters that are still living in the books, but I'm starting to run out of defense steam.



It's not like Grenn or Pyp have life altering plot necessity in the last book, but they were Jon's support network and killing them before Jon's even elected to Lord Commander seems disjointed and nonsensical. I know they did it for the emotional effect of the battle - to give it heavier weight because we don't have many NW men we can identify with who aren't key roles like Sam and Jon, but still - I'm not convinced it was necessary. I'm just getting somewhat desensitized to it and that itself can't be a good thing. The show's lost some luster this season for me. I'm not even sure it's to do with the veering off book course or not. It seems to be an overall apathy for me. There have been some really killer / great scenes this season so it's not because the season has been boring. I can't really put a finger on it. Just. Slumping.

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So sad Pyp and Grenn died, but thought it might happen. Was worried they were going to kill off Tormund as well.

Indeed. I agree with you.

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I love that Grenn took Donal's spot to fight "Mag". Noye was always a favourite minor character of mine in the books, but I'm happy that someone like Grenn took up the hammer for him.

I see what you did there... ;) But I agree: Noye was awesome and one of the few minor characters in the books whose death made me cry. Grenn and co. facing the giant has now become my favorite moment of that episode, particularly since it was very clear from the conversation between Jon an Grenn that Grenn knew this was a suicide mission and yet he still accepted without a single word of complaint.

i understand using grenn instead of donal noye, but why the fuck of all deaths this episode, this one had to be off screen?!

could have been so fucking awesome to see on screen.. potentially could even match oberyn's exquisite death!

Probably logistics. It's easy to shoot giants and humans independently, but both together in a battle scene? I don't even want to imagine the trickery that goes into that one. Also, not showing us allows the viewer to hold up hope until Jon finally gets there and sees for himself what happened.

Does this mean that GRRM has given the show runners a time line for all character's death? Maybe even a rating on how important they might be in future books? For example - Pyp dead 1/4 through WoW, importance rating 2/10.... What if this list fell into the wrong hands? It would be chaos!!!!!

No, but he has given them the broad outline for the major characters and plot lines, so if Grenn and Pyp were in any way, shape of form singularly important to anybody's plot or the overall story, they'd know. And by singularly important I mean "can't be replaced by anybody else", which is why I think that GRRM is making a way bigger deal out of Mago getting killed than it actually is.

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