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Snowisnobastard

(Show spoilers) how could they kill...

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They have sat down with him and asked him where all of the characters were going in the story. That's confirmed by interviews they have done. They know where it's going, now it's just up to them who to cut or combine and where to simplify the character list down from ridiculously huge to more manageable for a television audience.

Here's where there seems to be a contradiction. Yes, I have seen that said in their interviews. But I have also seen interviewers ask GRRM himself point blank if he's approved the plot choices for the show and he has said on multiple occasions 'no' that they make their own choices for the story. He's even suggested he disagreed with some of those choices.

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I didn't mind their deaths; they were emotional and added to the tragic scale of the battle. Plus, they have little to no parts in future storylines. I only wish that their characters were built up a bit. My SO thought that Pyp's death was much sadder than Ygritte's.

Grenn hit me the hardest. I figured they both would die, but it was still shocking to see.

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I'm so glad Edd made it.

And I don't think any character has gone out in more heroic fashion than Grenn. Really happy he got a fantastic final season rather than fading into obscurity.

Agreed. That was when it really hit me how much the Watch had suffered in that battle. Jon's reaction was quite haunting...you could see that he knew what was coming, but all of the losses he had already suffered had deadened him to it. I know some people thought he should have cried more, but honestly, it makes more sense to me that he would be just shellshocked by everything that happened and everyone who was killed. He was also clearly exhausted and on a suicide mission of his own, so it's not as if he's expecting to outlive his dead friends much longer, anyway.

I thought it was a very powerful scene.

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Agreed. That was when it really hit me how much the Watch had suffered in that battle. Jon's reaction was quite haunting...you could see that he knew what was coming, but all of the losses he had already suffered had deadened him to it. I know some people thought he should have cried more, but honestly, it makes more sense to me that he would be just shellshocked by everything that happened and everyone who was killed. He was also clearly exhausted and on a suicide mission of his own, so it's not as if he's expecting to outlive his dead friends much longer, anyway.

I thought it was a very powerful scene.

Yeah it definitely all ties into what has been Jon's theme throughout this entire season, growing into a leader. He sent Grenn to his death for the good of the watch and Grenn followed without hesitiation, literally dying for Jon in the process. Not only does it end a great, long-serving character's time on the show perfectly, but it's more gold in terms of Jon's own arc.

You could even say the same for Sam with Pyp. For 38 episodes Sam has been the 'craven' of the show. He saw that queer fearful courage in Pyp and guided him through the battle, and eventually, his death.

I was a little worried they would be dying purely just to amp up the named-casualty factor akin to the later seasons of TWD, but in typical Game of Thrones fashion, their deaths were serviced excellently and made for quality storytelling.

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Yeah it definitely all ties into what has been Jon's theme throughout this entire season, growing into a leader. He sent Grenn to his death for the good of the watch and Grenn followed without hesitiation, literally dying for Jon in the process. Not only does it end a great, long-serving character's time on the show perfectly, but it's more gold in terms of Jon's own arc.

You could even say the same for Sam with Pyp. For 38 episodes Sam has been the 'craven' of the show. He saw that queer fearful courage in Pyp and guided him through the battle, and eventually, his death.

I was a little worried they would be dying purely just to amp up the named-casualty factor akin to the later seasons of TWD, but in typical Game of Thrones fashion, their deaths were serviced excellently and made for quality storytelling.

I find myself tearing up when I rewatch the episode...the deaths were so poignant. Even Ygritte's death, which I didn't think would bother me, hit me with the prefect acting between the two of them,

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I fucking loved the Night's Watch bros.



It's a DAMN SHAME they never had Donal Noye on the show (one of my FAVOURITE minor characters) but if they had to give the Epic Donal Noye Giant Slayer death to somebody, I'm glad it was Grenn. Loved him to bits, but it made for very emotional television.



Oh, pyp. :( I really wish they had't have had Ygritte kill Pyp...it made her death less sad for some people (I still cried my eyes out at it)


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To those who say Jon has no friends left on the Wall, I say FEAR NOT!!


He has:


Dolorous Edd (of course)


Sam


Maester Aemon


And perhaps a begrudging less spiteful ally in Allister Thorne


Tormund Giantsbane Who Beds Bears - he shall become a Jon ally as well. (I was most relieved they spared him!) Remember his line last season: "I like you boy, I do. But if you lie to me, I'll strangle you with your own guts." So he likes Jon, as long as he doesn't lie to him.



Losing Pyp and Grenn were sad, but any book reader had to know as soon as Grenn went down in the tunnel, he wasn't coming out.


Pyp's death did catch me by surprise. It was so sudden.


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Yes it's casting budget, but it wasn't done because they had to save money. It was done because they didn't cast additional Wall characters in prior seasons (Donal Noye mainly).

It's weird tho, HBO is raking it in...

It's gonna seem odd that Jon only has what , two, recognizable NW brothers left? Maybe a couple of non speaking roles...?

It's too bad it's like the loss of Dany's handmaidens.

I noted before there are now too many 'major' characters and to few second stringers!

That's odd.

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It was sad, but well done. Their characters were no longer necessary and they presumably had to go to make room for Stannis, Melissandre and Oily (sp?). Grenn died the most heroic death possible, and while Pyp got the shaft on that front it was suitably shocking and sad. Much more powerful than Ygritte's if you ask me, and making the bitch kill him only made me want to see her dead.


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I didn't mind their deaths; they were emotional and added to the tragic scale of the battle. Plus, they have little to no parts in future storylines. I only wish that their characters were built up a bit. My SO thought that Pyp's death was much sadder than Ygritte's.

Yes, I insisted my Unsullied fiance watch the "previously on" segment twice, so he'd even remember that Ygritte & Jon were lovers...I was convinced he'd forgotten, & he hadn't, but all he's viewed all season is her "woman scorned" performance & he didn't really recall the depth of their relationship. Sad that this was so downplayed all season.

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Here's where there seems to be a contradiction. Yes, I have seen that said in their interviews. But I have also seen interviewers ask GRRM himself point blank if he's approved the plot choices for the show and he has said on multiple occasions 'no' that they make their own choices for the story. He's even suggested he disagreed with some of those choices.

But GRRM has also said that he has told them what happens in books 6 and 7. And it seems rather likely that GRRM has some sort of plot line written down somewhere. So B&B aren't going to be killing off characters that are going to play leading roles in the war against the other.

Also Ser Alyster was distinctly referred to as having 'fallen'. Which usually implies dead but has not been clarified.

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I find myself tearing up when I rewatch the episode...the deaths were so poignant. Even Ygritte's death, which I didn't think would bother me, hit me with the prefect acting between the two of them,

I did the same thing on my rewatch. I was kind of surprised, as I didn't really have a strong connection to Ygritte (book or show, though I think Rose Leslie did a great job). Maybe because their last moment reminded me of a particularly haunting tower of joy fanart. Pyp and Grenn, though ... gah! I even sniffled a little at the giants, too. :crying:

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Why didn't Grenn and the others back away from the gate? They all got crushed... yet somehow the giant died too. Idk, seemed a little silly. Should have shot it with arrows as it was charging at them. Instead they stood there and did the little Night's Watch chant and then smush. Bummer. Grenn was a badass.


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Posted about this before, but maybe the mystery killer cook Nights Watchman who killed a Wildling with a frying pan and another with a sword could be a new Jon Snow ally/name character.


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Hey, I'm still pissed about them killing off Rakharo, Irri and Jhiqui.

Well, I don't know if this makes it any better for you, but we never saw Jhiqui die (nor did we see her corpse), so there's still a chance that she's still around, but Missandei knows more about Slaver's Bay, making her a better companion for Dany right now.

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But GRRM has also said that he has told them what happens in books 6 and 7. And it seems rather likely that GRRM has some sort of plot line written down somewhere. So B&B aren't going to be killing off characters that are going to play leading roles in the war against the other.

Also Ser Alyster was distinctly referred to as having 'fallen'. Which usually implies dead but has not been clarified.

GRRM has also once said that the showrunners will face big problems because of their decision to cut Tyrell siblings. So I guess the showrunners don't seem to know a lot in details. And they probably don't know the fate of the likes of Grenn and Pyp either.

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GRRM has also once said that the showrunners will face big problems because of their decision to cut Tyrell siblings. So I guess the showrunners don't seem to know a lot in details. And they probably don't know the fate of the likes of Grenn and Pyp either.

I call 'bull' on that. GRRM thinks about all his minor characters that way. He said the same about the Dothraki that Drogo kills, yet he was/is a character that can be replaced by any generic Dothraki in the future.

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Disagree. Mago's actions were the ones that seem keep Dany's hatred alive. The memory of Eroeh still haunts her. By cutting both the Eroeh and Mago story lines, it also takes away from a big part of Dany's character. If GRRM says killing Mago was a mistake, it was a mistake.


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Disagree. Mago's actions were the ones that seem keep Dany's hatred alive. The memory of Eroeh still haunts her. By cutting both the Eroeh and Mago story lines, it also takes away from a big part of Dany's character. If GRRM says killing Mago was a mistake, it was a mistake.

You still don't get it. If that is not part if the show (or minimal at best), it carries no weight going forward. And that minimal role can be played by ANY Dothraki.

Think show continuity - not book continuity.

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I am thinking of both and of the author's own words that its a butterfly effect. He wouldn't say that for nothing. Sure, it can be played by a random Dothraki, but I'm guessing when the Winds of Winter comes out the interactions Dany will be heavily influenced by Mago's actions before. So in the show, whatever role he has to play (and it is confirmed he has one) will not carry the same weight as in the books. We know Dany wants her revenge against Jhaqo and Mago. In the show... well, Random Dothraki #s 21 & 53 just won't have impact.


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