[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick Without Repercussion

[Veltigar]

Just another of the many loose ends. There is no way they're going to introduce an entire made up Volantis sub plot about "Talisa". All of their made up sub plots end where the book plots end. So, unless Volantis for some reason ends up involved in helping the Northern lords in the books, which seems impossible, then I'd say "no"

If D&D don't tie it in then her character is completely useless.

In the books Volantis will end up supporting Dany, because of the result of the battle of fire and the slave revolt. Now, that would be hugely expensive to show and take up more time (If we onky get seven or eight seasons, we'll have to pick our battles to show. And I think that the Dance of Dragons 2.0. would also need a battle) than they can spare (especially since they'd cram useless filler into it).

So, the best thing for the show would be to merge the widow of the waterfront with Talisa's mother. Because the Lannisters killed her daughter, she wants vengeance against them and therefore she choses to support Daenerys. They could make her into the power behind the Volantinian government.

This would have some advantages:

1) You can cut the naval battle from the battle of fire. In fact you can probably skip the whole thing all together. Let the characters think that they're coming to fight them and then the Volantinians offer their support to Dany to avenge Talissa. That would save them a huge amount of money.

2) Another strong female character could be added

3) Talissa makes sense.

EDIT: They don't even have to cut the whole "freeing the slaves plotline". They can just have the widow explain that the loss of her daughter let her see the light and that she will free the slaves if Daenerys promises to avenge her daughter.

[Fat Trell]

The Wire depicts, rather brilliantly, what’s wrong with the institutions of today: that they are constantly used for the benefits of a few, while interests of the public are almost completely disregarded, even though institutions are meant to serve the public first and foremost. That theme is the main one in the show and it’s analyzed through five seasons, with multitude of angles covered – but mostly, perhaps exclusively even, from the perspective of the so-called middle management. We never see who’s at the very top of the food chain. In ASOIAF, we do. Institutions, even those most powerful and therefore most distant, are just humans, even at the very top. There’s always some Tywin, or Aerys, or Drogo, or Doran, or whoever, pulling the strings. Their fears and frustrations and secrets are also depicted and calculated in. The closest thing we get in The Wire in that regard are The Greek and Avon and Marlo. Hypothetically, if they were somehow created by GRRM, we’d probably know their entire family trees, their childhood secrets, their sexual prerogatives, and so on.

Hope you realize I’m not criticizing The Wire. They chose their theme and explored it thoroughly. But, as David Simon said, in the universe of The Wire institutions are like gods in Greek tragedies: entities that are above influence. And for the middle management, which was the focus of the show, it is true. But for the main players it isn’t. And ASOIAF does bring their perspective, too. And we often see them in dramatic circumstances, when they’re facing tough choices, and where their weaknesses, as well as their strengths, are at full display.

Also, the perspective of the common people is somewhat in the back in The Wire. There are Sobotkas in season two, and there’s Cutty, and that’s it, as far as I can remember. Basically, the question why do we obey institutions in the first place if we all know how corrupted they are, is never asked. In ASOIAF it is. Not only asked theoretically (Varys’ riddle), but there are also practical examples of people accepting institutions for the first time in their lives (wildlings in ADWD, freed slaves from Slaver’s Bay), and we also have institutions that went through significant changes and are therefore forced to fight for legitimacy in the eyes of the public/their subjects (Robert’s Rebellion as a crucial event from the past that is frequently visited through various recollections, and each of the Five Kings in the present). And I’d say individuals like Barristan also belong in this category.

Thanks to its scope and scale, ASOIAF deals with various forms of institutions, some of which are missing from The Wire: family as the basic institution of any society (in The Wire, we get a closer look only at the Barksdales), state governments, religious authorities, military orders, even financial superpowers a la Iron Bank. There are some institutions present in The Wire that are missing from ASOIAF – education and the media – but I guess they wouldn’t fit well into a medieval-like world.

Because of all that, ASOIAF probably has a wider appeal. The Wire depicts very specific institutions in a very specific era: modern urban environments, as Herc says. Of course it resonates with me, because I live in a city. (One more testament to the brilliance of The Wire: I’m a journalist, and I met quite a few politicians and other public officers in my career – and they’re perfect images of Carceti and Rawls and Clay Davis and Valchek; not to mention the media themselves, which are depicted extremely faithfully.) But, people from small towns or villages or other not so urban areas don’t have to feel the same connection I do. And, from my experience, they rarely do. Not that they dislike the show. It’s written masterfully and easy to like, even if it doesn’t resonate with one’s life too much. But ASOIAF, similar to The Sopranos for example, deals with things like families, which practically everyone can relate to.

One more thing. In ASOIAF, we see some institutions being challenged to their very limits (NW most of all). Speaking from a country that had more than its fair share of political and social disturbances in my lifetime, I find that perspective brilliantly explored in ASOIAF.

Once more, I adore and greatly respect The Wire. I just love and respect ASOIAF even more, and its take on institutions is one of the reasons why.

I have to disagree.

In ASOIAF we study people. We see how their actions effect others. We don't see how their actions are carried out in great detail. We don't study institutions in depth. We view them in relation to individuals. Whereas in The Wire almost every character is defined by their relationship to their institution, they are their role.

While we don't see the President or anyone who is actually at the top of the food chain in The Wire, for the setting, we definetly see the top dogs. We meet and explore the Police Commisioner, the Mayor, the Union head, the top westside and eastside drug dealers. While middle management in the grand scheme, they're hardly so in the setting.

While we might meet a wider range of institutions in ASOIAF, do we study any of them as closely as we do drug-dealing organizations or the police in The Wire? What do we actually know about how the Iron Bank functions?

We absolutely see institutions being pushed to their edge on The Wire. The Hamsterdam and the New Day Co-op plots were entirely about individuals(Colvin and Bell, respectivally) trying to change institutions from within.

I absolutely love both series as well, I just don't find them comparable in the slightest. The Wire is a very much a narrative driven story with enthralling characters; ASOIAF is a character driven story with an enthralling narrative. For example; David Simon stated that despite Stringer Bell being an incredibly popular character, he had to die because to let him live would have served character, not story. GRRM himself has stated(iirc) that his characters drive his plot. Many here actually(wrongly imo) complain that Martin has lost control of the plot because of how he favors character over story.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

@Veltigar I bet you rocked those exams......glad I could help you unwind from them. I'll never be able to answer well, til after the hubs is out of my hair, and until I stop the self water boarding type torture of reading finale spec., LOL I surrender for now, and well......I'm just waiting to see how the finale comes out in the wash. I'm sure I'll enjoy some of it, and I'm sure......I'll enjoy nitpicking some of it, too. ;)

Oh well, let's see if I can actually persuse some of this thread more thoroughly, along with some of the specific replies that I myself received. Surely, there is more nitpicking to be enjoyed around here. :fencing:

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Oh, I enjoy watching docs and drama when at home, but my theatre interests are pretty simple. "Gah! Did you see that tiger in the trailer? MUST GO SEE MOVIE!" or "Look, look, look! A WOLF/DRAGON/DINOSAUR! RAWR!" or "GARY OLDMAN/KARL URBAN! MARK IT ON THE CALENDER!" See a pattern here? xD Hubs is much more discerning in his movie watching, to be honest. :D

100,000 brains cells just keeled over when I considered (for a fleeting moment) the amount of alcohol I'd have to buy were we to do a 'shot per nipple' rewatch of 300. I'm feeling rather light-headed right now .... I'm hoping I didn't frighten them to death with the mere thought. :(

As to the battle/duel discussion. I'm of two minds about the 'realism' necessary for me to be entertained. I've never fought in a war, or trained for one, so I can't judge on the reality of the experience. I was raised by a military family, who have generations of wartime vets, so I have heard the stories ... but the ones who refused to ever speak of their experience on the battlefields were the ones who impressed me the most. That maybe why I have no interest in watching a realistic battle. Over-the-top, action-packed, CGI battles though? No prob!

And simply because we are discussing a fantasy series here, I couldn't help but think of Morrowind when reading your words concerning Jon's skill. I started off the game getting slaughtered by caterpillar-worms and rats, and by the end of the game I was taking down Gods (3 of them, dammit! Woot!). Nothing realistic at all about those battles, but they were f'ing fun! Who's to say Jon won't be a God-killer by the end of the story?

But, then again, I'm a gal who spends most of her days making sure our cat and cockatiel don't kill each other. Those are the only realistic battles I do get to watch. :dunno:

Rob Roy! I looked for a version of that movie for years wanting to see what the fuss was about ... hubs is a big fan of his, as well.

I didn't notice the cook and that cleaver until my second watch, and boy was I scared. That guy was terrifying! Either that or my Dark Souls nightmares came back to haunt me the moment I saw the goddamn size of that goddamn cleaver! :stillsick:

**edited for clarification now that 100,000 brains cells have been resuscitated and are back on duty.

You've reminded me that the hubs and I need to get serious with reinstitutioning movie date night. I miss that, drinks and/or dinner before, the talks afterwards. I will be keeping my eye out for movie ads now, and not.......waiting for dvd, netflix or hulu, and cable. Woo me, hubby, woo me, dammit!! :devil:

Myself, I don't mind a little 'Hollywood' in battle scenes, but it does go a bit overboard sometimes. Like the shiny, super modern scythe, why IS it a scythe, by the way.......when I first saw it, I thought: They've attached an ANCHOR to The Wall, LOL But, it seems as if GOT tries to claim 'realism' while they do the "Hollywood Boss Thing" anyway. I am grateful there wasn't an awful man cut in half scene like the Blackwater, though. Some of the effects aren't as good as they think. That's like Oberyn and his mashed head and face, looks like The Mountain is mangling a Planet of The Apes Mask to me? :lmao:

I definitely have 300 and Rob Roy on my serious list now, though.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

She's not from Volantis, she's from 21st Century Feminism Island, coming to Westeros to make fun of their barbaric culture and show them that women can choose too.

Just keep her away from Nuncle Island. I don't care if she can perform amputations that would make Ramsey jealous, as well as horny....hornier than they made Robb. :laugh:

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I don't like Talisa because she wasn't in the books. However, there is another problem that bothers me. This is also true for the show's version of Xaro Xhoan Daxos.

Both characters have backstories that seem to me more interesting than the characters themselves. I was more interested how these two ended up where they were

far a way from their home rather than what they were doing in the show.

I SWEAR, if Show XXD started ONE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MORE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TIME with where he had been, where he had come from, I would have jumped through the screen myself and wrung his neck!!

[Cas Stark]

I SWEAR, if Show XXD started ONE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MORE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TIME with where he had been, where he had come from, I would have jumped through the screen myself and wrung his neck!!

He didn't bother me for some reason.

Getting close to what I predict is the most epic nitpick thread of the entire series. D&D say its' their best episode/ending yet, which almost guarantees it will be chock full of insanity. Okay that was mean. But, Brienne and the Mountain, that alone deserves serious condemnation unless they're totally trolling us in the previews. Stannis is sure to be demeaned somehow, LMAO. And if we get another glimpse of Sansa Jolie....

I am going to be interested in how the TV only people take Dany chaining up her dragons, I fucking hated her for that, that may have even been my point of no return w/her.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

He didn't bother me for some reason.

Getting close to what I predict is the most epic nitpick thread of the entire series. D&D say its' their best episode/ending yet, which almost guarantees it will be chock full of insanity. Okay that was mean. But, Brienne and the Mountain, that alone deserves serious condemnation unless they're totally trolling us in the previews. Stannis is sure to be demeaned somehow, LMAO. And if we get another glimpse of Sansa Jolie....

I am going to be interested in how the TV only people take Dany chaining up her dragons, I fucking hated her for that, that may have even been my point of no return w/her.

It's not that the actor for XXD bothered me, it was his damn repetitive dialogue, LOL

And speaking of an epic nitpick thread, I just told my daughter how it now does seem just about certain that they will have Brienne and The Hound fight, she looks at me at goes................why and WTF? I explained to her how it seems it may be a misunderstanding between them, he'll see Lannister cronies (specially with Pod there, IMO) and therefore.......all hell will break lose. She's much easier going than I am about some stuff (she rolls her eyes at my beetle complaints) but she looks none too pleased. Haha, maybe I can finally get her to post some nitpicks herself, instead of her doing so vicariously through me.

ETA: The Hound and Brienne came up for us here at home by watching the behind the scenes fighting clip for this season and I noticed them applying blood to Sandor....out in the hill country, so I'm thinking it's for scenes we haven't seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_dXkxy2QWY

[roxWolfox]

where the fuck is Stannis ??!?!? show is ruining everything. For this part is the best of ASOIAF. Show viewers have no clue what's coming. I pity them.

Much like me when I first read the books. I'll admit I had absolutely no interest in Stannis (loved Davos though) until he came through at the Wall. I quite enjoy his character now.

If they don't tie the Talisa storyline to Dany and Tyrion's storyline, I'll be fucking pissed. They should just merge Talisa's (grand)mother with the widow of the waterfront. That's the only way they can rectify part of that Talisa mess.

They could keep the Volantis angle (if they bring that back in Tyrion's storyline) scenes. Cat wouldn't look as dumb as she did in the show and they could have some real interesting convo's.

What a brilliant idea! :cheers:

Just another of the many loose ends. There is no way they're going to introduce an entire made up Volantis sub plot about "Talisa". All of their made up sub plots end where the book plots end. So, unless Volantis for some reason ends up involved in helping the Northern lords in the books, which seems impossible, then I'd say "no"

If they could make the 'Avenge Talisa!' story tie in with either the Faceless Men or Dany, I'd be intrigued. Since we have no idea where they're going with that, I can't outright condemn the Robb/Talisa storyline. ;)

I am going to be interested in how the TV only people take Dany chaining up her dragons, I fucking hated her for that, that may have even been my point of no return w/her.

I agree that chaining up the dragons was the beginning of the end for my support of Dany, so I'll be looking forward to the audience's reaction. :P

Oh, and Lady Fevre Dream. 300 was one of the movies I dragged hubs to see 'cause it had a wolf! A WOLF! He almost didn't go, and kept reminding me that the last time I dragged him to the movies (against his will) was to see 10,000 B.C. 'cause it had a dozen fricking saber-tooth tigers! in the trailer.

Man, I've never been able to live that one down. :(

[swordswallower]

Pissed off about Pyp and Grenn of course, but it means they were expendable/replacable otherwise GRRM would've prevented it.

But this ep really emphasised my dislike of Show Sam - he's such a fool. Okay, so he had his badass moments but Book Sam is one of the brightest characters in the books (book smart anyway) and I don't recognise this gormless slack jawed dumbo

[Ninerings]

And to be fair, it really dazed Jon and almost lead to his death, which is what would happen. It would not instantly kill him.

Sorry. I've lurked for a long time and don't say much, but have you ever seen a head injury?

[Ninerings]

Pissed off about Pyp and Grenn of course, but it means they were expendable/replacable otherwise GRRM would've prevented it.

But this ep really emphasised my dislike of Show Sam - he's such a fool. Okay, so he had his badass moments but Book Sam is one of the brightest characters in the books (book smart anyway) and I don't recognise this gormless slack jawed dumbo

GRRM isn't preventing anything anymore. Direct me to the thread where I can commiserate with people who realize one of our favorite authors has given us .70% of the story and is ok with that.

[sj4iy]

Sorry. I've lurked for a long time and don't say much, but have you ever seen a head injury?

I have. Many people get head injuries, like concussions or bleeding on the brain, where noticeable symptons don't show up immediately. It can take minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or even years for them to show up...if they do at all. Many people aren't even knocked out for more than a split second.

I had something cause a head injury with me which damaged my pituitary gland. I don't have any clue at all what could have done it. I don't remember any sort of real head trauma. I just started having symptoms over many months, until I was finally diagnosed and received proper treatment.

On the other hand, this is a fictional story where many of the main characters have survived something nearly unsurvivable at least once. I don't see why this should be a huge amount of focus when it's happened a lot, even in the books.

[Ninerings]

I have. Many people get head injuries, like concussions or bleeding on the brain, where noticeable symptons don't show up immediately. It can take minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or even years for them to show up...if they do at all. Many people aren't even knocked out for more than a split second.

I had something cause a head injury with me which damaged my pituitary gland. I don't have any clue at all what could have done it. I don't remember any sort of real head trauma. I just started having symptoms over many months, until I was finally diagnosed and received proper treatment.

On the other hand, this is a fictional story where many of the main characters have survived something nearly unsurvivable at least once. I don't see why this should be a huge amount of focus when it's happened a lot, even in the books.

Just saying that I see head trauma and anoxia on a daily basis, and no one with the equivalent of what we saw on the show gets up and ights another day intact.

My annoyance is more along the lines of the fact that this didn't need to be visited all Rambo/XXX style.

[sj4iy]

Just saying that I see head trauma and anoxia on a daily basis, and no one with the equivalent of what we saw on the show gets up and ights another day intact.

My annoyance is more along the lines of the fact that this didn't need to be visited all Rambo/XXX style.

Well, in the books, Arya was lights out from being hit over the head with the flat of an axe blade...she probably should have had more head trauma from that, but it's a convenient trope in fiction to 'knock out' someone by hitting them on the head, but then they wake up a while later with no repercussions or lasting damage.

[roxWolfox]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_dXkxy2QWY

Thanks for the link, m'Lady. :D

Loved the 'volcanic rock ... it's hardcore' from Rory M, and the sparring between Alliser and Tormund was pretty nifty. "We can't give them real weapons..." :lol:

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I thought this would be good for a bit of Where the Eff is Gendry nitpicking?

https://twitter.com/JonSnowBastrd/status/477954806599139328/photo/1

@Wolfox6 I've already discussed the reinstatement of movie date night with the hubs. Now, I just have to pay attention to the damn ads, LOL I'll have my fingers crossed as I look for things like Lions and Tigers and Bears OH MY.......and hope that it doesn't come with something.....incredibly stupid. ;)

[sj4iy]

I thought this would be good for a bit of Where the Eff is Gendry nitpicking?

He joined with the Life of Pi guy by now XD

[roxWolfox]

He joined with the Life of Pi guy by now XD

:lol: Speaking of tigers ....

[teemo]

GRRM isn't preventing anything anymore. Direct me to the thread where I can commiserate with people who realize one of our favorite authors has given us .70% of the story and is ok with that.

Yeah, I don't think GRRM is preventing anything. He's said numerous times that he has no creative control over the series at all. If he wanted to kill off Pyp and Grenn, they'd be dead.