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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick Without Repercussion

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I don't think they're completely different at all, especially when they retain all of the major plot elements and the characters are with few exceptions, the same characters as the books. It's an adaptation. A fairly close adaptation.



And it is an adaptation that struggles the most with the plots that it invents.


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The show and the books have now become completely different creatures. Its time to come to terms with that and not expect everything to follow the letter. Hell, things are gonna get really bizarro in the next episode and beyond. Like really freaking bizarro. I heard something about Jaime going to Dorne... The time for being arsed about it has long passed. The show is now its own entity separate from the books. While i do think it will hint to how shit will go down in future books, its veering. I think most of the MAIN plot bombs will be exactly the same as the books, but how things arrive to those plot bombs is what differs here and there. (i am of the mind that Tyrion's stuff is going to remain largely unaltered.)

Like with Arya, stuff is different with how she gets where she is. However, she still arrives to the same plot point(s). She'll wind up on that ship to Braavos, but it wont exactly be the same way she did in the books. Stannis is still gonna show up at the Wall and save the day. Its a lot of the in-between stuff that gets shuffled here and there.

Thus is life. :dunno:

Im kinda excited about it cuz there will be things i wont see coming and thats always kinda cool. Especially when its done well.

I don't spend a lot of time trying to predict what will happen in the future (book or show) because I do like being surprised/entertained. Were I to know everything that was going to happen, the experience would be rather humdrum (book or show) for me. As it stands, I'm intrigued by this rumour of Jaime heading south! I definitely want to see him sass the Sand Snakes/Doran/whoever! :lol:

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The show and the books have now become completely different creatures. Its time to come to terms with that and not expect everything to follow the letter. Hell, things are gonna get really bizarro in the next episode and beyond. Like really freaking bizarro. I heard something about Jaime going to Dorne... The time for being arsed about it has long passed. The show is now its own entity separate from the books. While i do think it will hint to how shit will go down in future books, its veering. I think most of the MAIN plot bombs will be exactly the same as the books, but how things arrive to those plot bombs is what differs here and there. (i am of the mind that Tyrion's stuff is going to remain largely unaltered.)

Like with Arya, stuff is different with how she gets where she is. However, she still arrives to the same plot point(s). She'll wind up on that ship to Braavos, but it wont exactly be the same way she did in the books. Stannis is still gonna show up at the Wall and save the day. Its a lot of the in-between stuff that gets shuffled here and there.

Thus is life. :dunno:

Im kinda excited about it cuz there will be things i wont see coming and thats always kinda cool. Especially when its done well.

The problem is that the show isn't consistent within itself. It makes changes that should have far reaching implications(Brienne and Jaime being in KL pre-PW, Thorne and Slynt being at the Wall before the battle's start, there being a considerable gap in time between Jon returning to the Wall and Styr's attack), but refuses to follow through with these actions' logical changes to the Book's plot. The Show always snaps back to the main plot line, it never deviates from major plot points and their immediate consequences.

The things they change are always inconsequential, and largely illogical, to the plot.

For example; Sandor and Arya have had quite a different journey on the show than they did in the books. They have spent more time together, they have been much more friendly with each other, they have even travelled much further. But I would bet you my life that on Sunday, Arya will leave the Hound as he lay dying to board a ship headed for Braavos.

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But we can and must critique the show as an entity on its own. The stupid battle choreography, the endless amount of redshirts getting killed, the moronic battleplans, the awkward uninterrupted Ygrette death scene, the poor dialogue in the Sam scenes no one cares about, that stupid scythe, the lack of Ghost, Kit's shitty acting, the fact that Grenn doesn't think of using speers, the annoying kid, Wildlings that don't check their camps perimeter, no Mance Rayder, the fact that they'll probably destroy one of the only things they did better on the show in future episodes (show Alliser is a more relatable character than book Alliser, but the wound they gave him probably means that he'll take on Bowen Marsh's role) and we can just keep on going really.

It's just really, really sad and disappointing.

Now please don't take this as an insult to you or your intelligence, but when you use the word 'critique' then follow up with the word 'stupid', the two words just seem to negate themselves ... in my mind at least. If you had substituted 'stupid' for : unintelligent, vacuous, vapid, obtuse, moronic, nonsensical, ill-considered, inane ... well, you get my drift, right? And yes, I did just google the thesaurus to get that list of synonyms for 'stupid'! :lol:

Anyways, I have no issue with critiques. I just don't feel good about the 'attack' mentality some use while they are doing the critique. It comes down to: are you Rex Reed or Robert Roger Ebert? I like Robert Roger Ebert, even though I don't agree with him a whole lot of times.

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I think most of us have come to terms with it. We're now just poking holes in the shitty writing this show has and occasionally we bring up the books to show what could be done better. I mean when I look at my list of things that were wrong with this episode, than I hardly refer to the books. It's been to long since the last time I read ASOS to be accurate about it.

But we can and must critique the show as an entity on its own. The stupid battle choreography, the endless amount of redshirts getting killed, the moronic battleplans, the awkward uninterrupted Ygrette death scene, the poor dialogue in the Sam scenes no one cares about, that stupid scythe, the lack of Ghost, Kit's shitty acting, the fact that Grenn doesn't think of using speers, the annoying kid, Wildlings that don't check their camps perimeter, no Mance Rayder, the fact that they'll probably destroy one of the only things they did better on the show in future episodes (show Alliser is a more relatable character than book Alliser, but the wound they gave him probably means that he'll take on Bowen Marsh's role) and we can just keep on going really.

It's just really, really sad and disappointing.

A lot of this boils down to opinion, mate. I didnt find last week's episode too disappointing. There were things i wanted to see and didnt, but i didnt get too upset or disappointed in it because i know i will see Mance soon and Stannis.

A lot of the stuff you pointed out is very opinionated and not exactly what i would call objective. Theres nothing wrong with that, but its not at all universal. Seriously, you are an extreme minority when it comes to that scythe, mate.

Bolded, very much opinion. Very very much opinion.

I don't think they're completely different at all, especially when they retain all of the major plot elements and the characters are with few exceptions, the same characters as the books. It's an adaptation. A fairly close adaptation.

And it is an adaptation that struggles the most with the plots that it invents.

Its pretty different. Most of the vibe is the same, and so are the characters for the most part, but everything else is rather different. This has a lot to do with composited characters and stuff. The show stopped being adapted by the letter after season 1. I wont deny that it does at times, struggle with reconciling subplots it invents. The Craster's subplot was too much of a clusterfuck.

I don't spend a lot of time trying to predict what will happen in the future (book or show) because I do like being surprised/entertained. Were I to know everything that was going to happen, the experience would be rather humdrum (book or show) for me. As it stands, I'm intrigued by this rumour of Jaime heading south! I definitely want to see him sass the Sand Snakes/Doran/whoever! :lol:

Jaime winding up in Dorne may be another composited circumstance. Balon Swann doesnt seem to exist in the show, so Jaime may wind up in his place. This is just a rumor i saw on WiC.net. I should be more arsed about that possibility than i am. Cuz this means his Riverlands arc is going to be pushed back if its true. But again, im just not that arsed to be all up in arms about it.

For example; Sandor and Arya have had quite a different journey on the show than they did in the books. They have spent more time together, they have been much more friendly with each other, they have even travelled much further. But I would bet you my life that on Sunday, Arya will leave the Hound as he lay dying to board a ship headed for Braavos.

The thing is, there will likely be a reason why Arya leaves him. Either she will be told to leave him by Sandor himself, or he says or does something that reminds her that she hates him. Thats one plot im sure there will be a logical explanation for.

A better example would have been Asha's "raid" on the Dreadfort. Now that was just plain illogical.

I dont think Stannis' trek to the Iron Bank was illogical cuz im almost certain that had a lot to do with him coming to rely on Davos more than Melisandre. Thus beginning Stannis' character development.

So at least in my opinion, not all the changes are illogical.

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I'm still not over Arya not killing The Tickler. The excuse that apologists had back in the day is that "people wouldn't remember the Tickler by then," well obviously the audience probably wouldn't have remembered Lommy either, because they had to add in the dialogue of Arya telling the Hound who he was. I just miss her screaming his own phrases as she killed him. That scene is so epic in the books. Her pissed over Lommy? Meh, whatever.


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I dont think Stannis' trek to the Iron Bank was illogical cuz im almost certain that had a lot to do with him coming to rely on Davos more than Melisandre. Thus beginning Stannis' character development.

So at least in my opinion, not all the changes are illogical.

I agree with this. It is rather obvious on re-read that Stannis becomes more independent-thinking the further away from Melisandre he is. Maybe the Iron Bank scene was a nod to that particular part of Stannis' storyline?

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The thing is, there will likely be a reason why Arya leaves him. Either she will be told to leave him by Sandor himself, or he says or does something that reminds her that she hates him. Thats one plot im sure there will be a logical explanation for.

A better example would have been Asha's "raid" on the Dreadfort. Now that was just plain illogical.

I dont think Stannis' trek to the Iron Bank was illogical cuz im almost certain that had a lot to do with him coming to rely on Davos more than Melisandre. Thus beginning Stannis' character development.

So at least in my opinion, not all the changes are illogical.

Snipped.

Yes, but logically, Arya and the Hound would never have made it out of The Vale to begin with, they would have been taken for questioning...because the Hound is wanted by the crown and because Arya Stark. They would never have been allowed to walk away. It's ridiculous.

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Now please don't take this as an insult to you or your intelligence, but when you use the word 'critique' then follow up with the word 'stupid', the two words just seem to negate themselves ... in my mind at least. If you had substituted 'stupid' for : unintelligent, vacuous, vapid, obtuse, moronic, nonsensical, ill-considered, inane ... well, you get my drift, right? And yes, I did just google the thesaurus to get that list of synonyms for 'stupid'! :lol:

Anyways, I have no issue with critiques. I just don't feel good about the 'attack' mentality some use while they are doing the critique. It comes down to: are you Rex Reed or Robert Ebert? I like Robert Ebert, even though I don't agree with him a whole lot of times.

Who's Robert Ebert? :rolleyes:

I have changed stupid into insipid :p Perhaps a more accurate description of the fight scenes.

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I'm not caught up on the thread (so pardon me if this is an interruption, LOL) and I haven't thoroughly checked out the link and information that I am about to paste, but I thought some here might be interested in it for nitpick purposes. It's from the official Twitter GOT account, asking us to take a look at battle strategy. I thought this would be of interest to some here. Enjoy.






Take a look at the Night's Watch's battle strategy with storyboards of their secret weapon: http://itsh.bo/UtWfVu #TheWatchersOnTheWall


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If the guy who claims to have seen the season finale is right, there is going to be some serious rage among book readers next week hahaha.


The post, in case anyone hasn't seen it :http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109128-what-do-you-think-will-happen-book-spoilers/page-124#entry5895449 I've bookmarked it just to see if they were actually right :P I don't know if I believe the person, but I want to share in their "I told you so" feeling, if they are telling the truth.


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A lot of this boils down to opinion, mate. I didnt find last week's episode too disappointing. There were things i wanted to see and didnt, but i didnt get too upset or disappointed in it because i know i will see Mance soon and Stannis.

A lot of the stuff you pointed out is very opinionated and not exactly what i would call objective. Theres nothing wrong with that, but its not at all universal. Seriously, you are an extreme minority when it comes to that scythe, mate.

Bolded, very much opinion. Very very much opinion.

And did I refer to the fact that we didn't get to see Stannis? And the only reason I mentioned Mance (for whom I don't particularly care in the books btw) is because you would think we would get to see him. In a show that prides itself on having grey characters and portraying both sides, the wildlings were pretty one dimensional killing machines. I don't see how they can make up for that clusterfuck.

And was there stuff that was my opinion in my arguments? Sure, I personally like their Alliser (so far) better than what we got in the books. Others might disagree. The majority though, was plain truth. So much fails against logic and so many stupid cliches, in a franchise that claims it's all about circumventing them (Everyone can die! The good guys wear black clothing! This perfect golden knight fucks his sister and threw a kid out of a tower!).

Furthermore, we get the fanboys and the writers to partake in a circlejerk every freaking time ("best piece of television ever"). Which is really infuriating when you look at what a mess they make of things. Now, if I hadn't read the books I wouldn't be as passionate about it. I would just smile at the infuriating queste the writers seem to have to make as little sense as possible and I would consider GoT as campy fun at it's best (like Highlander or stuff like that). Sadly, I have read the books, so not only do their flaws as a show annoy me, but I have a guide right next to me that shows how they can do a better job with all the resources they have. We could see a serious drama, that happens to take place in a fantasy setting. And we get robbed of that!

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Who's Robert Ebert? :rolleyes:

I have changed stupid into insipid :P Perhaps a more accurate description of the fight scenes.

Ahahahaha

Poor Roger.

I just finished editing my post as well! :P

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Ahahahaha

Poor Roger.

I just finished editing my post as well! :P

He was a really good movie critic. Sad that he's no longer with us. I can only recall two three times where I really didn't agree with him (his rating for both Gladiator and Intouchables was way to low. And of course his take on "your highness").

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If the guy who claims to have seen the season finale is right, there is going to be some serious rage among book readers next week hahaha.

The post, in case anyone hasn't seen it :http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109128-what-do-you-think-will-happen-book-spoilers/page-124#entry5895449 I've bookmarked it just to see if they were actually right :P I don't know if I believe the person, but I want to share in their "I told you so" feeling, if they are telling the truth.

lol im pretty sure a lot of that is fake. But one thing is true, there will be people crying in their soup cuz there always is.

Opinion and butthurt because people like this show.

The thing is, you are preaching to the choir. A lot of people on here agree that its insipid because

<beat>

Its not the books. A lot of people on here get their jimmies out of place because people are enjoying this show. I find that rather upsetting because most of the time, they are being dicks about it. Its one thing to be like "Yeah i dont like this cuz reasons." Its quite another to insult others for enjoying it. Im not saying you are doing this, (actually you are being pretty cool about it) but i see so much of that go on, it makes me abhor this fandom. Thats a pity cuz i like talking about the series.

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If the guy who claims to have seen the season finale is right, there is going to be some serious rage among book readers next week hahaha.

The post, in case anyone hasn't seen it :http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109128-what-do-you-think-will-happen-book-spoilers/page-124#entry5895449 I've bookmarked it just to see if they were actually right :P I don't know if I believe the person, but I want to share in their "I told you so" feeling, if they are telling the truth.

You know this guy is a real douche if he turns out to be right. Not only does he not use spoilertags (eventhough he spoils an entire episode), he also breaks HBO's trust by telling everyone what's going to happen. No shred of integrity.

Not that he's right of course. Most of what he claims could happen, but he made the "A+J=T" mistake that gave it all away. You would think that these trolls were smarter than using something as obviously wrong as that.

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The problem with their big plot changes is that they make no sense.

I mean come on. This stuff doesn't hold up for 60 seconds. And that is only the stupid stuff they've done this season, I can't even remember the stupid stuff they did last season and the season before that.

The one that struck me the most silly was the Asha storyline, which was ill prepared for. They built her up in seasons previous, and developed an arc where you most certainly expected her to rescue Theon. I'm in agreement that this was written oddly; if we were to see her arc on paper, apart from all other context, it would appear trite.

Then again, isn't GoT the series much like this, apart from these instances? The anti-climax, the non-meeting of the heros, etc...sigh. Brienne's non-reaction to Sansa, though, that bothered me not a little.

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You know this guy is a real douche if he turns out to be right. Not only does he not use spoilertags (eventhough he spoils an entire episode), he also breaks HBO's trust by telling everyone what's going to happen. No shred of integrity.

Not that he's right of course. Most of what he claims could happen, but he made the "A+J=T" mistake that gave it all away. You would think that these trolls were smarter than using something as obviously wrong as that.

I cant imagine why they would have Arya kill Pod, nor do I think that Tyrion is not Tywin's son. Otherwise, that seems pretty believable as a finale.

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You know this guy is a real douche if he turns out to be right. Not only does he not use spoilertags (eventhough he spoils an entire episode), he also breaks HBO's trust by telling everyone what's going to happen. No shred of integrity.

Not that he's right of course. Most of what he claims could happen, but he made the "A+J=T" mistake that gave it all away. You would think that these trolls were smarter than using something as obviously wrong as that.

I was reading through the thread and it certainly does look like they were probably just trolling. Still pretty amusing and sounds like stuff the showrunners would do.

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lol im pretty sure a lot of that is fake. But one thing is true, there will be people crying in their soup cuz there always is.

The thing is, you are preaching to the choir. A lot of people on here agree that its insipid because

<beat>

Its not the books. A lot of people on here get their jimmies out of place because people are enjoying this show. I find that rather upsetting because most of the time, they are being dicks about it. Its one thing to be like "Yeah i dont like this cuz reasons." Its quite another to insult others for enjoying it. Im not saying you are doing this, (actually you are being pretty cool about it) but i see so much of that go on, it makes me abhor this fandom. Thats a pity cuz i like talking about the series.

Here's my two cents on the matter.

I do think just as many people on here (the show side of the forum, anyway) get their knickers in a twist because some people critize the show one little bit. I myself enjoy quite alot of the show, wouldn't watch if I didn't. I think there are extremes on both ends of this equation. I enjoy what I enjoy, show and book regardless of who wrote what, and well, I enjoy a good nitpick.

I enjoy talking about the series, too, books and show. It is a shame that extremes on both ends can muck up the sharing, and it's a shame that sometimes, I think some people misinterpret nitpicking as hating. Myself, I'm in this thread because it is marked book spoilers. I don't go in the positive one because it's non spoiler.

I like discussing it all around, and for the most part, I think most do, too.

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