unJon Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I saw the presnt tense thing as a little more than a gimmick to be honest. Yes but I do think Bakker means it as a signal to the readers. And I do think the signal with Mimara is about TJE. So I think you may be found something Bakker wanted to signal with the tense change of TJE opening. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I saw the presnt tense thing as a little more than a gimmick to be honest. I think the entire thing with time may likely be a gimmick, or at least unnecessary to the ultimate plot save in some convoluted way. But it's hard to do simultaneous time in a linear narrative. Even in comics like Invisibles I don't think it's worked that well, and Grant Morrison probably does time craziness better than anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I think the entire thing with time may likely be a gimmick, or at least unnecessary to the ultimate plot save in some convoluted way. I don't think so. I mean the WLW seems like an integral player and he only works with the time gimmick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 It's a gimmick in the same way that Dr. Manhattan's powers are a gimmick: not. I've never seen the big deal on the time thing. It's just something that a bunch of alien beings have. In what way has it affected the narrative? But it's hard to do simultaneous time in a linear narrative. Why? We've seen it what? Once. And it worked fine. It's a problem when the whole world is folded into the bizarro-universe and you're trying to build a plot but otherwise? The WLW's power is almost indistinguishable from prophecy as we've seen it. So I feel as if this is more a problem with the mechanics (not sure why either) than story.I don't think so. I mean the WLW seems like an integral player and he only works with the time gimmick. Again: as relevant as Dr. Manhattan's power; it affects how he acts, but it doesn't dominate the entire plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Well in Donnie Darko it appears to be a linear plot, but actually the 'tangent universe' has, from what I've heard, repeated itself in several cycles over and over. And it affected the narrative alot without appearing to affect it. (side note: I don't buy into the 'time travel makes the universe keep reseting' idea from DD, but I get the idea and as a story convention I'm okay with it) Could be plenty of narrative changes that are there. Everyone bangs on about fate being a whore. Maybe she's also a time traveler. How many times is Kellhus almost dead but then conveniently found? And Akka finding that tube in a big destroyed library? C'mon, bit contrived! Unless perhaps time has been tampered with and the narration has been changed as a result. Barely perceptably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 The time thing is more or less a gimmick, yes. And a bad one. If anything it should be the other way around. The regular characters experience time as it happens so their chapters should be written using the present tense. The Gods/JE/WLW experience Earwa's time as if it already happened so their chapters should be in the past tense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Actually, scratch that. With the time thing he might be giving us yet another hint that the Outside is our world after all, and the Hundred Gods are the hundred people who have read the books. In the regular chapters, we read about stuff that has already happened to other characters in other worlds and so on, so the past tense is appropriate as in most other fiction. But the Gods PoV is our PoV, we experience time as we are reading the book, so the present tense is appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Actually, scratch that. With the time thing he might be giving us yet another hint that the Outside is our world after all, and the Hundred Gods are the hundred people who have read the books. In the regular chapters, we read about stuff that has already happened to other characters in other worlds and so on, so the past tense is appropriate as in most other fiction. But the Gods PoV is our PoV, we experience time as we are reading the book, so the present tense is appropriate.I f&$#@@ng hope not! That will be some cheesy shit and I've already heard 2 or 3 examples where that's been done before. Your theory is pissing me off....but its probably right.Eta: I'm not putting your theory down in any way. I love coming here and reading your guys ideas. You all picked up way more than I did, reading the series. I just want something original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 even if the gods = readers thesis is literally untrue as it regards the setting, or heaven forfend the author's 'intention,' it can still be perfectly reasonable as a hermeneutics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Ok sologdin, I had to look that one up! Your right it wouldn't bother me if you could deduce that was his intentions. I just wouldn't like it if it was the basis of the books. And this so-called, "series that can't be named", ties in with neuropath. I haven't read neuropath, but what I'm saying is I would just like for the books to remain in the setting of Earwa. I would just like it to remain " strictly" fantasy. Those are just my wishes. I'm sure others wouldn't mind at all if it ties in with his other works. To each his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 That was more of a half-assed joke than a genuine theory, MSJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 OK, but it makes sense....and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that way. Just don't want it to. Do you guys recommend I read Neuropath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 I don't recommend it. It's a passable philosophy treatise masquerading as a shitty psycho thriller. It has all of Bakker's standard negative tropes while having virtually none of his creativity and originality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 MSJ: I liked Neuropath well enough. It’s really quite disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 OK, but it makes sense....and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that way. Just don't want it to. I wouldn't be surprised either. Bakker thought Disciple of the Dog was a good idea. He could reveal that the Gods are literally a bunch of guys playing an MMO and it would still not be as bad as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I wouldn't be surprised either. Bakker thought Disciple of the Dog was a good idea. He could reveal that the Gods are literally a bunch of guys playing an MMO and it would still not be as bad as that. :lol: true. Such a bad concept an Bakker enamoured with it because it can't be disproven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Right and unjon you would know. Bakker played those games and is part of the inspiration for the books, right? I'm just not making this up in my head am I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Yeah, it might even explain things like how the Inchoroi changes personalities between Synthese form and TWP form. eta: If you believe the claim that it's Aurang at the end of TWP that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Yeah, it might even explain things like how the Inchoroi changes personalities between Synthese form and TWP form. eta: If you believe the claim that it's Aurang at the end of TWP that is.It could have been Aurang. According to Kellhus, Aurang possessed Esmenet by having the Mangaecca squat about his body and mutter endless cants. If that's the same way the Synthese works then it could be that some part of those human sorcerers gets mixed in with Aurang. Like, their passions and his intellect or something.I can't find it now but there was something about soul trapping where the soul is split between passions and intellect. Or it could be that my passions have just overpowered my intellect and I made all that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 I can't find it now but there was something about soul trapping where the soul is split between passions and intellect. Or it could be that my passions have just overpowered my intellect and I made all that up. that's from the TUC chapter 1 sample that Bakker releases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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