Barristan the Bold is not a true knight

[The other prince]

Which is hiding behind your cloak. I don't care how many oaths you swear to this or that King, it should be totally obvious to anyone, knight or not, that what Aerys did to Rhaella violates the knightly vows about protecting the innocent. So if you want to argue that the members of the Kingsguard are guards first, knights second then fine, that's exactly the point: By becoming a Kingsguard, you run a very serious risk of ceasing to be knight, in spirit if not in name.

What do you think would happen to a Knight if they did not follow orders? We are given the impression that some Knightly vows conflict with others. This would be even more true when you add the KG vows in the mix. All a Knight could do is try and stay true to what they consider the core beliefs. Whicfh is where I think everone is running into a problem. The people saying that someone like Barristan is "Hiding behind their vows" is making the assumption that the most important part of a knights vows is to act nobly and be a champion for the weak. That doesn't appear to be the case in GRRM's world. Loyalty seems to be more crucial then anything. Take Balon Swann as an example. He doesn't like his orders but he still compelled to obey. I still maintain that we are trying to judge Barristan by our value system and not the one that GRRM has created.

When you consider that following orders is clearly one of if the most important parts of being a knight then you simply cannot call it "Hiding" It just comes with being a knight. In fact I would think that having to follow orders despite personal feelings is likely harder for many knights then refusing orders you don't like. Take Jaime for example. After watching Rickard Stark get roasted and his son strangle himself to death Ser Gerold pulls him aside to remind him what really is considered to matter to the KG. Ser Gerold had to have reservations about this incident himself or he would not have thought to pull Jaime aside. It seems to me that if anything following this path is actually harder.

[HosteenOsteen]

Barristan is admirable as far as he goes, but operates in a very narrow range. I think it is right to say that even though the Hound is a far more morally ambiguous character the universe of values in which he operates is larger.

But i do wonder, did Barristan's inaction with respect to Ned Stark have anything to do with Ashara? Although he certainly seems friendly and complimentary to Ned otherwise, defending him to Daenerys...

[Mikkel]

What do you think would happen to a Knight if they did not follow orders?

Depending on who were giving those orders and the knight in question, death would be a possible outcome. I do think protecting the weak and innocent or dying in the attempt is part of the knightly vow though, isn't it? At least in theory.

We are given the impression that some Knightly vows conflict with others. This would be even more true when you add the KG vows in the mix. All a Knight could do is try and stay true to what they consider the core beliefs.

Agreed.

Which is where I think everyone is running into a problem. The people saying that someone like Barristan is "Hiding behind their vows" is making the assumption that the most important part of a knights vows is to act nobly and be a champion for the weak.

I would argue that that is exactly what it's supposed to be. In practice though, not so much.

That doesn't appear to be the case in GRRM's world. Loyalty seems to be more crucial then anything. Take Balon Swann as an example. He doesn't like his orders but he still compelled to obey. I still maintain that we are trying to judge Barristan by our value system and not the one that GRRM has created.

It's certainly not the case in practice, even if it that's the way it's supposed to be. I should probably put in here that I don't think Barristan is worse than the average knight, in fact he's certainly in the better half, but then his reputation and station (pre-Joffrey) means he should be held to an even higher standard, which is where he falls short.

I suppose in the end it comes down to a certain sadness that knights in practice are so far from the ideal of what knights are supposed to be, and Barristan is an inviting target for criticism, even if there are certainly many that are worse. On the other hand, if noone takes a stand, things will never improve and it's easy to be frustrated when someone like Barristan (who overall is a decent man) falls short of that mark again and again. Even if it's understandable. Especially when we then see the results people who do take the high road achieve (Ned as an obvious example).

I think one of my very first arguments on this board was over Barristan, and I still feel much the same as I did then: he may be closer to being a "true knight" than many others, but he still falls frustratingly short of the mark.

[The other prince]

Barristan is admirable as far as he goes, but operates in a very narrow range. I think it is right to say that even though the Hound is a far more morally ambiguous character the universe of values in which he operates is larger.

But i do wonder, did Barristan's inaction with respect to ned Star have anything to do with Ashara? Although he certainly seems friendly and complimentary to Ned otherwise, defending him to Daenerys...

You know I find that a very interesting thought. If so it may not have even been a conscious decision.

[KINGpanther]

Seriously, there had better not be a Kingsgaurd (or Queensgaurd) at the end of the series, causes so many problems.

[LordStoneheart]

I find it very strange that Sandor, the man who rode down and killed Mycah for no reason other than "orders, brah, whatevs" is either "more honorable" or has a "bigger set of values" than Barristan, who's only grey area seems to be not knowing fully what to do about Aerys raping Rhaella because of ambiguous oaths.

[TheFloyd1]

He's not a genius that's for sure, but it raises an even greater question:

How is a knight supposed to act?

If we look at the samurai code, and the history of the samurai you will notice that prior to this culture that grew from samurai, they where basically a force of marauding mercenarys who did whatever the highest paying fugal lord wanted. That would include, rape, pillage, murder, you name it! And the same can be said for knights. Gregor Clegane, is a knight, he isn't "knightly" but he is one.

Why is he a knight? Because some dude knighted him. That's it really. He can do whatever he wants, he is still a true knight, because he was knighted. As soon as some guy, rests a sword on both your shoulders and makes you say a bogus oath with more pot holes than south america you're a knight.

Is Barristan, a true knight - yes - technically.

Is he an intelligent man? Not particularly.

Does he follow his oaths well? Not really no.

As the queen of thornes says about Loras Tyrell "he's good at knocking people off a horse with a stick." And that goes for Barristan as well.

The idea of a knight, was to make peasants idolize and respect wealthy sons, of Lords, who where pretty much all knights. Chivalry was introduced to make people feel they "follow a code". But a knight could walk into your room and shit in your soup if he so wanted. He was no less the knight. This book, derives a lot of itself from medieval Europe. Where pretty much everything introduced was to keep the peasants in line, so they can collect taxes. Distracting peasants with the use of honorable and noble knights, which one day you can be, was one way to do it. I feel asoiaf hits the mark perfectly with how knights are. A lot of them are dicks, who rape, pillage, and murder. Just like in real life.

Barristan is not a dick, he does not rape, pillage or murder. But the guy doesn't know his oaths from his arse to his elbow. He contradicts himself constantly, and his knightly oath, and Kingsguard oath contradict one another on almost every level.

Just like Loras Tyrell, he's good at "knocking people off a horse with a stick" Barristan, is however a fantastic soldier, and was one of the best swordsmen the world had seen. He was a monster on the field and fantastic to have at your side. That's what makes a knight.

I have a little sandor clegane in me I feel.

[Jankmaster]

I wish the D&E novels would come out sooner, more that WoW actually. I kind of like reading about the hedge knight who to me is more a true knight than any in the series, including Barry or Arthur. Neither of them have the moment where they say, "Screw whats proper/lawful I'm doing what's right!" Like Dunk does. Although, I kind of hold to that idea that quote that's like, "That white cloak soiled me" line from Jamie. Maybe even dunk can't act on his morals when he takes the white cloak. I really want more D&E. But I digress, point being, any knight in the court of Aerys II seems like he's in a no win senario, but a true knight, like foolhardily might actually try and stop the king. True Knights may not be smart, but it's the effort I remember.

[Greywind84]

Who's to say that Dunk didn't change his beliefs once he became a Kingsguard member? Im not saying Aegon was capable of acts of cruelty but there's no guarantee that Ser Duncan didn't do the odd thing that wasn't exactly 'knightly' in the service of his friend.

[The other prince]

Who's to say that Dunk didn't change his beliefs once he became a Kingsguard member? Im not saying Aegon was capable of acts of cruelty but there's no guarantee that Ser Duncan didn't do the odd thing that wasn't exactly 'knightly' in the service of his friend.

I doubt that his core beliefs changed but your point remains vailid anyway because what he felt like he needed to do as a member of the KG may have been different then as a hedge knight. We don't know the exact wording of the entire oath for the KG but to me at least it seems that once you are a member of the KG this trumps any other vow you may have taken.

[Talking Hodor]

Barristan hides behind his oath while under the Mad King. Then when Lord Stark presents the kings seal claiming Joff had no claim, Barristan stood their while the Starks were slaughtered instead of defending his kings last testament and will. Coward or True knight you be the judge.

Note: Knights are suppose to be just and true!

Barristan had no reason to doubt Joffrey's claim at that moment, nor did he yet know what a gigantic asshole he would turn out to be. The Kingsguard are programmed like the Secret Service to value the king above their own lives, so he just defaulted into protect-the-crown mode. He hasn't done a single dishonorable thing during this entire story.

[Mikkel]

Barristan had no reason to doubt Joffrey's claim at that moment, nor did he yet know what a gigantic asshole he would turn out to be. The Kingsguard are programmed like the Secret Service to value the king above their own lives, so he just defaulted into protect-the-crown mode. He hasn't done a single dishonorable thing during this entire story.

I doubt that, there was bound to have been countless signs for those who bothered to look. Just the delightful little story about cutting up a pregnant cat alone should set a lot of alarm-bells ringing. Of course, hindsight is 20/20 as they say, but I think it must have been evident to anyone as close to the royal family as Barristan that there was something seriously wrong with Joffrey.

[LordStoneheart]

Something was also seriously wrong with Aerys and other Targaryens but no one bothered to do anything until Jon, Eddard, and Robert. I suppose Rickard might count but he was possibly working with Rhaegar, so not exactly forsaking the Targs completely. It doesn't make Barristan staying with Joff at first any better, but it doesn't make him a standout case in not seeing something wrong with the monsters.

This makes realize something though. Barristan left before Sandor, and he did it because he was being dishonored and devalued when he had much more potential and was a better KG than all the others. Sandor left well after Barristan and only because he was scared of the fire (granted, he is understandably scared of fire). Yet he was all too happy to leave... but not before sticking a knife to a girl's throat and intending to rape her!!!

What a stand-up guy.

[Danelle]

I doubt that, there was bound to have been countless signs for those who bothered to look. Just the delightful little story about cutting up a pregnant cat alone should set a lot of alarm-bells ringing. Of course, hindsight is 20/20 as they say, but I think it must have been evident to anyone as close to the royal family as Barristan that there was something seriously wrong with Joffrey.

Exactly.

I think that Barristan is a good man and I really like him, but he has served horrible people and tolerated them.

Arys Oakheart was so grateful when they sent him to Dorne, that he lit a candle.

Arys was able to discover how depraved Joffrey was even before he became king.

In DWD Barristan doesn't even mention Joffrey when he recalls the kings that he had served.

Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon's son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing. But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue. It was his failures that haunted him at night, though. Jaehaerys, Aerys, Robert. Three dead kings. Rhaegar, who would have been a finer king than any of them.

As for Joffrey, he was grateful that he dismissed him.

The day Lord Stark lost his head, I was there, watching. Afterward I went into the Great Sept and thanked the seven gods that Joffrey had stripped me of my cloak."

He also knew that Joffrey would hunt him and threaten his family

My cousins would find a place for me at Harvest Hall, I knew, but I had no wish to bring Joffrey's displeasure down upon them. I was gathering my things when it came to me that I had brought this on myself by taking Robert's pardon. He was a good knight but a bad king, for he had no right to the throne he sat. That was when I knew that to redeem myself I must find the true king, and serve him loyally with all the strength that still remained me."

[LordStoneheart]

That was when I knew that to redeem myself I must find the true king, and serve him loyally with all the strength that still remained me."

I feel like this is the most important aspect in Barristan's departure though. He left after learning he shouldn't just serve to serve, but to seek out and find who might be worthy. After all, he didn't tell Dany who he was until he was sure she wasn't mad, whereas he didn't question Robert or Joffrey's madness until he realized it was too late. It makes him misguided, yes, but not dishonorable.

[PrinceHenryris]

A kight's just a sword on a horse.

[JoeyBanana]

Yes.

Knights were glorified bodyguards, medieval athletes & occasionally warriors. Barristan was all of that. He obeyed and was loyal to his Kings.

It's simply a different system of morals that we (gladly) can't truly understand anymore. That's like trying to argue that Ned Stark was not a fair ruler because he didn't reform the North and implemented a constitutional monarchy.

[Mikkel]

I feel like this is the most important aspect in Barristan's departure though. He left after learning he shouldn't just serve to serve, but to seek out and find who might be worthy. After all, he didn't tell Dany who he was until he was sure she wasn't mad, whereas he didn't question Robert or Joffrey's madness until he realized it was too late. It makes him misguided, yes, but not dishonorable.

Robert wasn't mad though. Absentee, disinterested, a drunk. None of which are admirable qualities in anyone, let alone a king. But he wasn't mad, and he didn't go out of his way to inflict pain and suffering on others, or glory in it when it was done in his name. It's faint praise, but still. There's bad, there's mad and then there's Aerys (edit: and Joffrey).

Of course I disagree with Barristan that he's redeeming himself by siding with Dany 'Fire and Blood' Targaryen, and I reject his conclusion that Robert's reign failed because he wasn't a Targ - if anything the abject horror of the Targ king just prior to Robert should show how ludicrous a statement that is, particularly coming from someone who experienced the madness of Aerys first-hand.

The simple fact that it took his cushy position being taken away to galvanize Barristan means I'm having a really hard time seeing his choice to "find the true King" as noble or altruistic.

In conclusion: Barristan is not a bad man, and there are plenty worse than him, but he's not a true knight. The problem of course being that there are next to no true knights at all, as that ideal (a true knight) is almost impossible to achieve. The irony being that those who come closest to embodying that ideal are not knights at all (Dunk, Brienne).

[Jankmaster]

To me, the best way to have the freedom to be a true knight would be a hedge knight. You don't have any vows to hold you but the ones you swore in the sept before the Seven. Or Old Gods if you are a northern knight, because I can't see a mormont abandoning the old gods just for a pretty tile of Ser.

[Mikkel]

To me, the best way to have the freedom to be a true knight would be a hedge knight. You don't have any vows to hold you but the ones you swore in the sept before the Seven. Or Old Gods if you are a northern knight, because I can't see a mormont abandoning the old gods just for a pretty tile of Ser.

In which case you're not a knight at all :) Knights are sworn to the Seven, or they're not knights at all. So there's no such thing as a "northern knight" unless they've converted to the Faith of the Seven.

Interestingly we do have a Mormont who is also a Ser: Jorah. But he has shown to have little regard for vows or honor of any kind, so I doubt he cares much about which set of Gods he's supposed to worship.