OtherFromAnotherMother Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 3 hours ago, Ygrain said: Even without that quote: Petyr is a beast, lurking in ambush, to tear into pieces whomever he chooses to. Then he licks his claws clean and goes exhibit his soft fur and seemingly harmless demeanor. All those calm, civilised manners, that is mask, and what is underneath is not pretty in the least - black, thick blood of utter corruption. I see what you did there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoke Martin Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 Why does it feel like people are just grasping at straws and throwing in any and all symbolism or foreshadowing that they can to try and justify why Sansa or Arya will kill Littlefinger? Everything bad that has happened to the Starks has been because of their own actions. Littlefinger is not some greenseer mastermind that knows what people are thinking or what they plan on doing, he is just a huge troll who has benefited from the ignorance of highborn morons. What reason does Arya of all people have for killing Littlefinger? What is the important connection there? None exists. Why would Sansa want Littlefinger dead? He helped her escape from the Lannisters and aided in killing Joffrey, he saved her life again from Lysa, and he is currently protecting her and teaching her. What you think as a reader doesn't matter, the characters' actions depend on what they know. So put aside your character bias and provide reasoning based on what the characters know and how their actions would result in Littlefinger's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 5 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said: Why does it feel like people are just grasping at straws and throwing in any and all symbolism or foreshadowing that they can to try and justify why Sansa or Arya will kill Littlefinger? Everything bad that has happened to the Starks has been because of their own actions. Littlefinger is not some greenseer mastermind that knows what people are thinking or what they plan on doing, he is just a huge troll who has benefited from the ignorance of highborn morons. LprdWhy would Sansa want Littlefinger dead? He helped her escape from the Lannisters and aided in killing Joffrey, he saved her life again from serLysa, and he is currently protecting her and teaching her. What you think as a reader doesn't matter, the characters' actions depend on what they know. So put aside your character bias and provide reasoning based on what the characters know and how their actions would result in Littlefinger's death. Whether or not Sansa has cause to want Lord Petyr dead the Ghost of High Heart has prophesied that the maid with venomous snakes in her hair will kill the raging giant, and that is taken by many as Sansa killing LF. I don't think Sansa has many illusions about the man LF is. She's seen him have Ser Dontos, the man she's protected and who got her out of the Red Keep killed in cold blood. Who knows what else she may find out? That he was the one who persuaded Joff to have Ned killed rather than having him sent to the Wall, as had been agreed on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 16 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: I see what you did there. Didn't think it would escape attention :-) 5 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said: Why does it feel like people are just grasping at straws and throwing in any and all symbolism or foreshadowing that they can to try and justify why Sansa or Arya will kill Littlefinger? Everything bad that has happened to the Starks has been because of their own actions. Littlefinger is not some greenseer mastermind that knows what people are thinking or what they plan on doing, he is just a huge troll who has benefited from the ignorance of highborn morons. If you intentionally lead someone into a swamp full of poisonous snakes and insects where they don't know their way around, do you really think it is solely their fault that they die there? Littlefinger orchestrated the whole conflict between the Starks and Lannisters - he framed the Lannisters for the murder of Jon Arryn, and since Jon was carrying out investigation of Cersei's incest, Ned was bound to go the same way that would eventually make Cersei move against him. LF took advantage of the attempt on Bran and framed the Lannisters for it, too, to make them look even more guilty. 5 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said: What reason does Arya of all people have for killing Littlefinger? What is the important connection there? None exists. None so far, but even so, at Ned's execution, Arya knows that LF is the "man who wanted to marry mother". A peculiar little detail to be inserted at this point. 5 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said: Why would Sansa want Littlefinger dead? He helped her escape from the Lannisters and aided in killing Joffrey, he saved her life again from Lysa, and he is currently protecting her and teaching her. And she knows that Joffrey was murdered in a way that would make her seem complicit, as Tyrion's wife and the one carrying the poison, she knows that LF has two faces, and she heard Lysa's confession even though she doesn't understand it all yet. She has seen him kill and order killing without mercy. 5 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said: What you think as a reader doesn't matter, the characters' actions depend on what they know. So put aside your character bias and provide reasoning based on what the characters know and how their actions would result in Littlefinger's death. Are you somehow under an impression that the characters will never ever learn? Bran's weirnet aside, there is Jeyne Poole, "trained" at LF's brothel, currently headed for Braavos (which is where Arya is). LF putting a dagger to Ned's throat wasn't exactly a private event, there is Lysa's confession about the letter to Cat, Tyrion knows that LF framed him with the dagger... All it takes is for people to meet and talk. The one thing that (most likely) didn't have a witness is LF whispering to Joffrey's ear that true kings don't show mercy to their enemies, but arranging a doublet with inverted colours for Ned did have to be carried out somehow, so that info might out, as well, and then perhaps someone might connect the dots. And the person who knows about LF whispering into Joff's ear on another occasion happens to be none other than Sansa. So, the conclusion that it will be Sansa or Arya killing LF is based on the prediction that the information already available will be combined and LF's treachery revealed and duly punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 21 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said: Why does it feel like people are just grasping at straws and throwing in any and all symbolism or foreshadowing that they can to try and justify why Sansa or Arya will kill Littlefinger? Everything bad that has happened to the Starks has been because of their own actions. Littlefinger is not some greenseer mastermind that knows what people are thinking or what they plan on doing, he is just a huge troll who has benefited from the ignorance of highborn morons. What reason does Arya of all people have for killing Littlefinger? What is the important connection there? None exists. Why would Sansa want Littlefinger dead? He helped her escape from the Lannisters and aided in killing Joffrey, he saved her life again from Lysa, and he is currently protecting her and teaching her. What you think as a reader doesn't matter, the characters' actions depend on what they know. So put aside your character bias and provide reasoning based on what the characters know and how their actions would result in Littlefinger's death. While Sansa has no reason to wish Littlefinger at this point, he has many skeletons in his closet, some of which Sansa could discover. As @Ygrain has pointed out, he lead Ned into a deadly swamp, and took advantage. Plus, his holding a dagger to Ned's throat was hardly a private event. Jeyne Poole's (mal)treatment is likely to anger Sansa if and when she discovers it. The dagger affair could also come to her notice. Her escape from KL, while welcome, came at the cost of her becoming a murder suspect, which was deliberately set up by LF. And that's only what has already happened. It is likely that LF is poisoning Sweetrobin to keep him in a weakened state, and is intending his death when it is convenient (which it isn't right now). Harry the heir is also a likely target for murder. The hoarding of food in the preview chapter could come into play. And when the Others attack the North, Sansa and LF are quite likely to vehemently disagree on whether and how to help the North. And that's just what I can think of right now. More could come, since her ideals and sympathies are very different from his. I have to say, though, that I see little reason for Arya to take action against him, except in concert with Sansa. Certainly not on her own, or with Sansa dead. Unless LF does the killing, in which case it would be quite likely. Btu that is a different story, and not likely to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 13 hours ago, Nevets said: I have to say, though, that I see little reason for Arya to take action against him, except in concert with Sansa. I believe the sisters' story arc would be incomplete without a reunion, confrontation and, hopefully, forming a pack. And then LF should worry. That said: (show spoiler) Spoiler The finale of their arc in the show was, IMHO, quite plausible - Sansa saying the word, and Arya doing the deed. Loved that scene (not so much what preceded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 Sansa will know more about Ned's prison, start of the war and littlefinger did surely plant some seeds on Joffrey too, about Ned's execution... I think Sansa will kim him at some point, but he is not the savage giant. Robert Arryn is dying way first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 Ser Sandwuicht mad mouse is in the vale, now we need to find out if he is going to try to abduct her or will tell her something she doesn't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 29, 2019 Author Share Posted March 29, 2019 On 5/13/2018 at 5:07 PM, Nevets said: While Sansa has no reason to wish Littlefinger at this point, he has many skeletons in his closet, some of which Sansa could discover. As @Ygrain has pointed out, he lead Ned into a deadly swamp, and took advantage. Plus, his holding a dagger to Ned's throat was hardly a private event. Jeyne Poole's (mal)treatment is likely to anger Sansa if and when she discovers it. The dagger affair could also come to her notice. Her escape from KL, while welcome, came at the cost of her becoming a murder suspect, which was deliberately set up by LF. And that's only what has already happened. It is likely that LF is poisoning Sweetrobin to keep him in a weakened state, and is intending his death when it is convenient (which it isn't right now). Harry the heir is also a likely target for murder. The Hide contents hoarding of food in the preview chapter could come into play. And when the Others attack the North, Sansa and LF are quite likely to vehemently disagree on whether and how to help the North. And that's just what I can think of right now. More could come, since her ideals and sympathies are very different from his. I have to say, though, that I see little reason for Arya to take action against him, except in concert with Sansa. Certainly not on her own, or with Sansa dead. Unless LF does the killing, in which case it would be quite likely. Btu that is a different story, and not likely to happen. Once No One finds out what Petyr did to The Ned and House Stark, A Girl will kill him. I think there will be ample opportunity for her to find out. There is a gravedigger on an islet just south of the Vale who knows, and he would remember the wolf girl with fondness. Also, a girl who was once Arya and Sansa's best friend before that, could end up with another girl who was Arya in Braavos. Such an encounter and revelation would almost surely spur the wolf girl into action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 On 5/10/2018 at 5:17 PM, Elaena Targaryen said: (If somebody more familiar with symbolism could add their thoughts I'd appreciate it.) I think(?) black swans have some connection with suffering and vulnerability. They're associated with the ballet and insanity. See below for a prime example! A white swan in your dream is usually a symbol of beauty, purity, dignity and also wealth. Of course, the meaning of your dream will change if you are dreaming about a black swan. This dream symbolizes something unknown and mysterious. and now, in response to A Dance with Dragons, i give you A Shitstorm of Sisterliness- - - give to ceasar the coin that is ceasar's, to sansa the plotline that is hers, and to arya give no part for no such person exists, save as the Stranger re-tweeting her curse. We're supposed to root for her to throw off the no one and declare her birth name again. Though to what end? And what of the realm? It remains in desperate need of the Stranger, my friend! Surely she should settle by the seashore shorn of self and silently secretly support her sister's ascendence from the shadows, soliciting her services as princess of whispers when Varys is sent to sleep with fishes, say arya succeeds him as fisher of men, savior to tongeless kids, casting new nets of deceit to ensnare disloyal "servants" of seven kingdoms and hoist secrets from oceans of sibilance. Sisters still, swans separately shaded, severed by distance, experience, circumstance, tsunami emotional issues, each seeking shelter from the insane black swan ballet in cloaks of invisibility sewn in dismay as sansa saunters on snowy trails in plain sight whilst secluded from her plight, whereas arya shuns the light, submerging soul so as to assay the might a no one needs for continuance of the fight, surrendering names for the nonce so to survive and stake future claims to what was once, as the dance of dragons sets in flames the seeming insurmountable Cersei chains smelted of fears and tempered in tears and forged of a pain No One Wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Once No One finds out what Petyr did to The Ned and House Stark, A Girl will kill him. I think there will be ample opportunity for her to find out. There is a gravedigger on an islet just south of the Vale who knows, and he would remember the wolf girl with fondness. Also, a girl who was once Arya and Sansa's best friend before that, could end up with another girl who was Arya in Braavos. Such an encounter and revelation would almost surely spur the wolf girl into action. Littlefinger is being set up as Sansa's antagonist. As such, he is Sansa's responsibility to deal with, not Arya's. Although I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Arya didn't help some, the ultimate responsibility and decision-making on the subject will be Sansa's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 9 hours ago, Nevets said: Littlefinger is being set up as Sansa's antagonist. As such, he is Sansa's responsibility to deal with, not Arya's. Although I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Arya didn't help some, the ultimate responsibility and decision-making on the subject will be Sansa's Agree completely. Arya’s arc has been completely divorced from Littlefinger’s, even in Game of Thrones. Having her storm in to conclude Sansa’s arc doesnt strike me as particularly good narrative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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