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Lost Melnibonean

Arya, not Sansa, is the maid that will slay Littlefinger, the savage giant

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13 minutes ago, Megorova said:

@Lost Melnibonean

Maybe those are two separate beings - giant with black blood inside his stone armor, and savage giant slayed by maid?

Then first of them could be either the Mountain, that became infected with wight's black and dead blood. Because LC Mormont has sent wight's hand to KL, so maybe Qyburn got it, and used zombie-virus' samples from that blood, to infect dying Mountain.

Or this one could be Jon Connington. Stone armor is reference to his greyscale, and there's only black blood inside, because the illness is inside of him, corrupting his blood.

And second - giant slayed by maid, could be either Littlefinger, if the maid is Sansa, or someone totally unexpected, if the girl isn't Sansa nor Arya.

Sure, there could certainly be two different giants here, but if there's a chance that the two giants are the same, I would think that to be the cleverer result. And in this case, Petyr appears to be the leading candidate for one, and the second most likely candidate for the other.

Normally, I would look past the obvious candidate, which is Petyr in the case of the savage giant, but in that case, I think the twist is in the same maid part of the prophecy. On the other hand, Gregor might be a bit too obvious (isn't that one of the most used arguments against Reznak for the perfumed seneschal?) as the giant armored in stone.

And although Gregor fits mechanically, he doesn't really fit thematically as well as Petyr does. Petyr was much, much more harmful to House Stark than Gregor ever was or ever could be. 

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20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sure, there could certainly be two different giants here, but if there's a chance that the two giants are the same, I would think that to be the cleverer result.

~

And although Gregor fits mechanically, he doesn't really fit thematically as well as Petyr does. Petyr was much, much more harmful to House Stark than Gregor ever was or ever could be. 

But those two giants were in visions from different sources. Stone-blood giant was from Bran's coma-dream, and savage giant was from GOHH's dream told to Arya.

Bran:

"He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

How Gregor doesn't fit thematically, and what that has to do with how much harm he caused to Starks, if he was one of three guards, that were escorting Robert, on his trip to Winterfell and back?

At that time near Ned were the Hound, Jaime, and this third. And the Mountain was also with them all, at that time. So he is that stone-blood giant. And black blood part is about his future, that he will be necromanced by Qyburn. And Littlefinger wasn't with them on that trip to Winterfell.

I'm taking back what I said about JonCon. He can't be that stone-blood giant. Because he wasn't near Ned, Arya and Sansa then.

So this giant is definitely, 100%, the Mountain. Because he was there.

Which doesn't mean, that him and the other giant, slayed by maid, are the same person. So the other one still could be Littlefinger.

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15 minutes ago, Megorova said:

How Gregor doesn't fit thematically, and what that has to do with how much harm he caused to Starks, if he was one of three guards, that were escorting Robert, on his trip to Winterfell and back?

At that time near Ned were the Hound, Jaime, and this third. And the Mountain was also with them all, at that time. So he is that stone-blood giant. And black blood part is about his future, that he will be necromanced by Qyburn. And Littlefinger wasn't with them on that trip to Winterfell.

???Where is this stated? The first time we see Gregor in AGOT, it's at the Hand's tourney. And why should he be escorting Robert, anyway? He's a Lannister vassal, not Robert's, and the three guards are Jaime, Boros and Meryn.

15 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I'm taking back what I said about JonCon. He can't be that stone-blood giant. Because he wasn't near Ned, Arya and Sansa then.

It's definitely not JonCon, but not for the reason of proximity. At that point of the story, Jaime wasn't doing anything except being around, which is hardly worth placing him in a vision, and Sandor's only contribution is killing Mycah. It's Jaime's past (pushing Bran) and future (ambushing Ned and sending Brienne on the quest to find Sansa) that makes him significant, and Sandor later becomes involved with both Sansa and Arya. Gregor has zero connection to Sansa or Ned and there is no interaction between him and Arya during her capture, so there is no reason for him to be in the vision, either. Whereas Littlefinger is the reason why they all went to KL (had Lysa murder Jon Arryn and blame the Lannisters for it), and his betrayal of Ned directly caused Sansa and Arya's respective ordeals, not to mention that he is the prime suspect in enabling Jaime's ambush of Ned and manipulating Joffrey into executing Ned. If that doesn't count as a gigantic influence looming over other persons involved with the Starks' lives, I don't know what else might.

 

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Pete is the anti- savage, is my stumbling block.  He's a very civilized horror.

Clegane of black blood could loom larger by far in the upcoming history of the realm that the people will KNOW of and remember.  (The full horror of Petyr maybe never becomes known?)   To get the maximum value out of your RobStrong, won't you lock him in a room with the entire KingsLanding government, effectively ending the tradition of Order and civilization in that dump?   That'd be remembered as monstrous, and when folks are trying to stop the queen from incinerating the city, Clegane will stand in their path.  Monstously.  That'd cement the savage title for him, if the realm had to select a new capital because of his shenanigans.

The stone braavos giant connection for petyr is cool.   That's why i see him getting all the way back to the throneroom, as part of braavos making its takeover play.

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14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Black blood symbolizes death, because blood appears black after death.

Black blood is present in our other undead characters.

Beric

Quote

 . . but the burning sword snapped in two, and the Hound's cold steel plowed into Lord Beric's flesh where his shoulder joined his neck and clove him clean down to the breastbone. The blood came rushing out in a hot black gush.

and Cat

Quote

Her cloak and collar hid the gash his brother's blade had made, but her face was even worse than he remembered. The flesh had gone pudding soft in the water and turned the color of curdled milk. Half her hair was gone and the rest had turned as white and brittle as a crone's. Beneath her ravaged scalp, her face was shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails. But her eyes were the most terrible thing. Her eyes saw him, and they hated.

Black blood is also present in other magical, mystical moments/creatures/people. Mellisandre's shadow baby birthing had black blood. Drogon''s blood is black. The blood Maggy ducks from Cersei is described as "seemed more black than red." 

I agree that black blood also symbolizes death, but I also think George wants us to associate it to magic. It is also a clear application to fellow undead characters in Beric and Cat. Plus, we are told that Gregor's blood is black.

Quote

"The flesh mortifies and the wounds ooze pus," Pycelle told the council. "Even maggots will not touch such foulness. His convulsions are so violent that I have had to gag him to prevent him from biting off his tongue. I have cut away as much tissue as I dare, and treated the rot with boiling wine and bread mold, to no avail. The veins in his arm are turning black. When I leeched him, all the leeches died. My lords, I must know what malignant substance Prince Oberyn used on his spear. Let us detain these other Dornishmen until they are more forthcoming."

Also, when our stone giant lifted his visor there was nothing. This could represent Gregor's skull being sent to Dorne. No head.

I'm still leaning towards Bobby Strong for this giant. I think the savage giant is Petyr, but the armor made of stone with black blood is Strong. 

I'm not 100% certain though. A stone giant with a visor full of black blood seems like it should represent a more prominent character than Strong, but we still have books to go. Maybe he will...

 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

On the other hand, Gregor might be a bit too obvious (isn't that one of the most used arguments against Reznak for the perfumed seneschal?) as the giant armored in stone.

Haha. I like your reasoning here. I do the same thing with Reznak. However, one of our characters thinks the perfumed seneschal is Reznak (Dany). That is different than the reader figuring out who the giant is, right? 

Also, we have to remember Bran's vision came all the way back in GoT. We don't know about Strong until the end of Dance. We got a hint about Gregor''s black blood on Storm. It may seem too obvious now, but there are some pieces the reader has to put together to figure it out (if it is Strong).

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And although Gregor fits mechanically, he doesn't really fit thematically as well as Petyr does. Petyr was much, much more harmful to House Stark than Gregor ever was or ever could be. 

I completely agree with this. That is why I am not 100% sold on Strong.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

So this giant is definitely, 100%, the Mountain. Because he was there.

If you believe this, then there is no reason to go on. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

How Gregor doesn't fit thematically, and what that has to do with how much harm he caused to Starks, if he was one of three guards, that were escorting Robert, on his trip to Winterfell and back?

At that time near Ned were the Hound, Jaime, and this third. And the Mountain was also with them all, at that time. So he is that stone-blood giant. And black blood part is about his future, that he will be necromanced by Qyburn. And Littlefinger wasn't with them on that trip to Winterfell.

Please direct me to the spot in the books where we are told that Gregor was among the royal progress to and from Winterfell. 

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22 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Black blood is present in our other undead characters.

Beric

and Cat

Black blood is also present in other magical, mystical moments/creatures/people. Mellisandre's shadow baby birthing had black blood. Drogon''s blood is black. The blood Maggy ducks from Cersei is described as "seemed more black than red." 

I agree that black blood also symbolizes death, but I also think George wants us to associate it to magic. It is also a clear application to fellow undead characters in Beric and Cat. Plus, we are told that Gregor's blood is black.

Also, when our stone giant lifted his visor there was nothing. This could represent Gregor's skull being sent to Dorne. No head.

I'm still leaning towards Bobby Strong for this giant. I think the savage giant is Petyr, but the armor made of stone with black blood is Strong. 

I'm not 100% certain though. A stone giant with a visor full of black blood seems like it should represent a more prominent character than Strong, but we still have books to go. Maybe he will...

So the stone giant was faceless, right? Like the man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung, with a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings perched on his shoulder. Hmm...

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So the stone giant was faceless, right? Like the man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung, with a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings perched on his shoulder. Hmm...

Haha. You're the best! I've read that OP before (and the one you replied with upthread here). However, I'm not quite ready to make that leap... yet.

I was hoping you would respond to my thoughts on black blood being symbolic of the magical undead. Do you see the connection there, in addition to death in general? 

 

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1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Haha. You're the best! I've read that OP before (and the one you replied with upthread here). However, I'm not quite ready to make that leap... yet.

I was hoping you would respond to my thoughts on black blood being symbolic of the magical undead. Do you see the connection there, in addition to death in general? 

 

Whether the dead character is animated or not, his or her blood must be black--that's how we know they are dead, or undead. 

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20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Whether the dead character is animated or not, his or her blood must be black--that's how we know they are dead, or undead. 

Ah come on, LM. You know you've got more ideas than that. 

What about Drogon having black blood as well? What is George doing there? Is it a completely separate issue? I am thinking he may want black blood to symbolize magic, not just undead type magic.

Does Mellisandre's black blood confirm that she is undead as well? Obviously something is up with her, but I've never been sold on her as undead. At least not in the same undead sense as Beric and Cat.

If I'm going too far off topic let me know.

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

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1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Also, when our stone giant lifted his visor there was nothing. This could represent Gregor's skull being sent to Dorne. No head.

:blink: Could be that he has no head, at least not his original. If Qyburn managed to "save" him, by infecting him with wight-virus, then he doesn't need to have a head. One of wights at Castle Black kept going, and killing people, even after they cut off his head. Thus could be that they did put Robb's head on body of the Mountain. 

Quote

"The flesh mortifies and the wounds ooze pus," Pycelle told the council.

Mortifies means the same as petrification or turning into stone, so his skin could be his stone armor.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If you believe this, then there is no reason to go on. 

But the second slot is still open. If there's two giants.

If you think that stone-blood giant is also Petyr, then why is his blood black?

Because he may be Blackfyre? With his great grandfather arriving from Braavos, could be that he was one of Blackfyre descendants. And that's the reason why Varys has chosen LF as his apprentice.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Please direct me to the spot in the books where we are told that Gregor was among the royal progress to and from Winterfell. 

I'll look for it. Though maybe I misremembered something.

Got a bit sidetracked, while I was looking for him, though I found Arya's purple serpents.

AGOT, Sansa I:

"None of which stopped Arya, of course. One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father. Sansa kept hoping he would tell Arya to behave herself and act like the highborn lady she was supposed to be, but he never did, he only hugged her and thanked her for the flowers. That just made her worse.

Then it turned out the purple flowers were called poison kisses, and Arya got a rash on her arms. Sansa would have thought that might have taught her a lesson, but Arya laughed about it, and the next day she rubbed mud all over her arms like some ignorant bog woman just because her friend Mycah told her it would stop the itching."

This could be one of Robert's hunts, while they were on the way from Winterfell to King's Landing: "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells."

And this could be a feast after the hunt, not some significant event: "I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs."

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15 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Could be that he has no head, at least not his original. If Qyburn managed to "save" him, by infecting him with wight-virus, then he doesn't need to have a head. One of wights at Castle Black kept going, and killing people, even after they cut off his head. Thus could be that they did put Robb's head on body of the Mountain. 

If the skull that was sent to Dorne was Gregor's then the original isn't there. I am less suspicious than some readers and actually believe that Dorne did receive Gregor's skull. I would imagine something would have to be on top of the neck to hold up a greathelm.

24 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If you think that stone-blood giant is also Petyr, then why is his blood black?

Because he may be Blackfyre? With his great grandfather arriving from Braavos, could be that he was one of Blackfyre descendants. And that's the reason why Varys has chosen LF as his apprentice.

If the stone armor giant is Petyr, the black blood would be symbolic of lies and death. 

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27 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And this could be a feast after the hunt, not some significant event: "I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs."

This is supposed to be the an easy one.

Sansa with the poisonous purple amethysts in her hair at Joff's wedding feast.

I'd rather not overthink it.

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@Lost Melnibonean

Didn't found Gregor there, on their back trip from Winterfell, which doesn't mean, that he wasn't there.

Quote

“They’ve found her, my lord.”

Ned rose quickly. “Our men or Lannister’s?”

“It was Jory,” his steward Vayon Poole replied. “She’s not been harmed.”

“Thank the gods,” Ned said. His men had been searching for Arya for four days now, but the queen’s men had been out hunting as well.

He could have been there, with other Lannister's men, only uncredited until his participation in the Hand's Tournament.

19 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I would imagine something would have to be on top of the neck to hold up a greathelm.

Didn't Joffrey ordered Robb's head to be delivered to KL? And after that could be, that Qyburn got it, the same as wight's hand from Castle Black. Thus after he also got his hands on the Mountain, he assembled three of his toys together - Robb Stark's head + Mountain's body + wight virus. Zombie Lego, Christmas edition.

19 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

If the stone armor giant is Petyr, the black blood would be symbolic of lies and death. 

Ok, I agree it could be Petyr. Either him, or the Mountain. Or both.

Though I really don't see Sansa killing anyone.

Edited by Megorova

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22 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

If the stone armor giant is Petyr, the black blood would be symbolic of lies and death. 

Petyr is also the Lord of Harrenhal, and Harrenhal has a black blooded curse to those who should not be there. No triple twisting of the text to show this link ;)

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11 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Didn't Joffrey ordered Robb's head to be delivered to KL? And after that could be, that Qyburn got it, the same as wight's hand from Castle Black. Thus after he also got his hands on the Mountain, he assembled three of his toys together - Robb Stark's head + Mountain's body + wight virus. Zombie Lego, Christmas edition.

Joff did want the head but there is no mention or hints of it being in KL. 

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Got a bit sidetracked, while I was looking for him, though I found Arya's purple serpents.

AGOT, Sansa I:

"None of which stopped Arya, of course. One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father. Sansa kept hoping he would tell Arya to behave herself and act like the highborn lady she was supposed to be, but he never did, he only hugged her and thanked her for the flowers. That just made her worse.

Then it turned out the purple flowers were called poison kisses, and Arya got a rash on her arms. Sansa would have thought that might have taught her a lesson, but Arya laughed about it, and the next day she rubbed mud all over her arms like some ignorant bog woman just because her friend Mycah told her it would stop the itching."

So the flowers that she was holding in her ARMS, are shown in a vision as serpents in her HAIR. Sheesh.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Didn't found Gregor there, on their back trip from Winterfell, which doesn't mean, that he wasn't there.

Because 2-metre tall men are so easy to miss in the crowd, apparently.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

He could have been there, with other Lannister's men, only uncredited until his participation in the Hand's Tournament.

So, the vision showed us a person that no-one, the author included, considered important enough to mention, who has zero importance to two out of the three characters included in the vision and a limited one to the third one...

It might have been Gregor, but if it was him, it definitely wasn't due to his proximity at the time.

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1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Joff did want the head but there is no mention or hints of it being in KL. 

Joff was King, so if he ordered something, then his people did what he said. So most likely the head was delivered to KL. And the hint could be that knight's name - Robert Strong.

Robert because it's Robb's head.

And Strong is a parallel to Harwin Strong Brokenbones. He was personal sworn shield of Rhaenyra Targaryen, and was said to be the strongest man in the Seven Kingdoms in his day. Like the Mountain was the strongest man in 7K, and Cersei's personal sworn shield.

Harwin's father was Lyonel Strong. It isn't known what was name of Gregor's and Sandor's father. But what is known, is that their House was established by first Clegane, that saved Lord Tytos Lannister from a lioness. Lyonel gave life to Harwin Strong - lioness gave life to House Clegane.

This parallels are not parallel at all, though some similarity is present, sort of :unsure:

Or maybe a hint is that House Strong is extinct, thus it's a clue that Robert Strong is a zombie.

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