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Lost Melnibonean

Arya, not Sansa, is the maid that will slay Littlefinger, the savage giant

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Because Sansa's hairnet is too obvious. So maybe it was a distraction of some sort, while actual purple serpents scene happened off screen, but the flowers were mentioned on pages. So it's not like Author didn't gave to us any information at all, that it may be Arya.

It is obvious only after it happens, just like Patchface's rhyming about chains for the guests.

And what is the purpose of the purple flowers that Arya is never seen wearing? What happened at that feast we never saw nor hear about?

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Yeah, Ok. Though originally it wasn't even his plan. He just riped off Varys' plan, altered it a bit, to be beneficial for him, and set things in motion a few years earlier, than in Varys' original plan. But Varys wasn't mentioned not in GOHH's dream, not in Bran's vision, not in Dany's vision, or even in the prophecy of Meggy the Frog. And it's not like Varys is totally innocent in Starks' downfall. Nevertheless his negative influence wasn't shown in any of visions/predictions. So the pure fact, that LF had negative influence over Starks, isn't enough, to be a viable reason, to show him in that vision. It's not like the Hound caused lots of harm to Starks, nevertheless he was there, in that dream.

Do you really need to be explained the difference between Varys, who makes use of people as he sees fit regardless of who they are, and LF, who planned the demise of the Starks from the get-go? Or do you need to be reminded of the extent of Sandor's involvement with both Sansa and Arya?

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

She's too stupid to arrange something like that. I think that she's the most unintelligent female character in entire series. Though I'm not the Author, he can use some major plot twist, and reveal that Sansa is some sort of great strategist and a super genius, able to masterfully manipulate people, and make them to abide to her will.

See below.

2 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Read Sansa's Feast chapters again... Sansa's not stupid. She's able to work out the games that Littlefinger is playing, both with the granting of the Gates of the Moon to Nestor Royce, and later with Lyn Corbray working for Baelish and his outburst being planned to give Baelish the upper hand in negotiations. Even her arranging of the seats for the meeting with the Lords Declarant shows her smarts. 

Sansa's not stupid... she's naive, and innocent. But now she's losing that naivety and innocence, and is learning the Game of Thrones from one of the best (Littlefinger). 

Couldn't agree more.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

This is from Bran's coma-dream, Jaime:

"A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. “The things I do for love,” it said.

Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran’s shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone."

And later - "Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful."

So most likely it is Jaime, in both parts of that vision.

Sigh. My point is that the descrition fits both Jaime and Joffrey, who, being Jaime's son, has his golden looks, as well.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Because Sansa's hairnet is too obvious. So maybe it was a distraction of some sort, while actual purple serpents scene happened off screen, but the flowers were mentioned on pages. So it's not like Author didn't gave to us any information at all, that it may be Arya.

I see this argument made a lot for several various prophecies, visions, dreams, etc. 

We have to remember, in addition to what @Ygrainsaid, that the members of this website represent a minority of readers. While it seems obvious now, to us hardcore readers, it is far from obvious to the average reader. It is one of those things that one catches on a second or maybe third read and says "Oh!".

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't certain mysteries that George writes specially for us hardcore readers, he certainly does. But when something like this GoHH vision fits so perfectly with Sansa's hairnet at the wedding feast, I think that is what George wants the reader to think of. 

I love your creative, outside the box thinking. I encourage it! But I also think it is important to remember what the author is intending for the reader to see.

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21 hours ago, Therae said:

It could also suggest the outcome of a future reunion with his beloved Cat...

The only thing that would leave Petyr speechless and totally unprepared.   She'd (finally) be the Cat that got his tongue.  Which has always been his....  nevermind.  Sansa and Catelyn both being in the room when he gets his death was one of mine from back in the day.   At the Cat-retaken Fish castle, amidst the Vale- freed Riverlands, was the feeling i got, when Finger would be staying at Tully hotel.

If we can foresee Pete siding with Aegon, wouldn't that be accompanied by dropping Sansa onto Aegon's face?  Bed?  Alliance?   This Dornish honey with designs on Aegon... she gots to go.

20 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

After 4 years and 13 pages, I say talk about whatever you like. 

Galveston it is, then!     Too far?   

...i don't care as much about fictional purple flowers as y'all do, but my real ones are awesome from the Spring rains.  .....Petyr's black blood comes from a fungus that infects his moldy house on The Fingers.  Finger Fungus.   

Also, much more satisfactorily, how are Catelyn and Ned supposed to end up together to round out this fairytale romance unless the Robert Strong head is Ned's?   

No one wants Robert's Head to be heading things up again in a government job.  Also, Ned Head is pre- severed as if fate always wanted this Stark family reunion.  With Robert's fat neck there'd be so much sawing and flying flubber during the severing, the mere thought of it is untidy.   Goash.

Quote

She's too stupid ...Though the Author can use some major plot twist that Sansa is some sort of great strategist, masterfully manipulates people, and makes them abide to her will.

if you're reeeeeeely right, and you stick to what matters (no time left for politics) , you may not need to manipulate.  That may be the whole selling point, the end of that era of lies.  If the Others kill any who leaves the herd, there's no need for a stick to beat people into staying with you.  That's been delegated.   Species Survival as the new genius strategy nobody else is suggesting.

Edited by The Mother of The Others
I know goash is spelled wrong

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Or do you need to be reminded of the extent of Sandor's involvement with both Sansa and Arya?

He saved them both, more than once. And Jaime also tried (or thought that he will try) to bring them back to their mother. So two out of three of those shadows, turned out to be saviours, for both Arya and Sansa, that were also seen in Bran's coma-dream.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Do you really need to be explained the difference between Varys, who makes use of people as he sees fit regardless of who they are, and LF, who planned the demise of the Starks from the get-go?

Varys isn't any better. In some sense he's even worse. LF at least doesn't lie to himself or others, why he's doing all of it - for power and wealth. And Varys most likely is a Blackfyre, and he does all of it, for the sake of revenge, and to get Iron Throne for Blackfyres. But he's pretending, that he's doing it for the sake of realm and its people.

@Lost Melnibonean

There's four visions, not three, so each of them could be about a different Stark.

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

1. Robb or most likely Jon, after Ned's execution. The wolf is grieving, thus someone died. And no one hears him, because he is alone. Like Jon was away from other Starks, on The Wall. Or Robb, after he found out about death of his brothers. And the rain can signify Ironborn, same as the sea in Jojen's vision.

2. Red Wedding. If those little bells is Frey's grandson, killed by Cat.

3. Sansa at Purple Wedding.

4. Arya. And it's the same maid, even though it's two different characters, because both of them are Starks. Lady Stark Sansa in third vision, and Lady Stark Arya in the last, because at that time Sansa is pretending that she's Alayne.

In this thread is missing one crutial detail - the most important part of the crime, is the motive, the reason why was it commited. Why would Arya kill LF? I have a few ideas, why she may do it, or how she may find out about his participation in her family's doom. Though I'm interested, what's your opinion about this part. This is your thread, that Arya and not Sansa, is the slaying maid, but the motive why, and the means how, are missing in here.

Also this: "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death." - What's your opinion, who can be this lord, that smells like death?

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Actually, with Faceless Men masks, and with shadowbinding (Mance/Rattleshirt, Bloodraven/Maynard Plumm), anyone can use someone else's identity. So even if the maid in 3&4 has the same face, doesn't mean, that it's really the same person.

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:
1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Also this: "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death." - What's your opinion, who can be this lord, that smells like death?

Beric.

GRRM is often using trinities, so this could also be one of those - wolf child, blood child, the lord who smelled of death; all three in certain sense parts of Arya's description. Beric is an obvious choise, but how could have GOHH mistaken him with the little girl?

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10 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I see this argument made a lot for several various prophecies, visions, dreams, etc. 

We have to remember, in addition to what @Ygrainsaid, that the members of this website represent a minority of readers. While it seems obvious now, to us hardcore readers, it is far from obvious to the average reader. It is one of those things that one catches on a second or maybe third read and says "Oh!".

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't certain mysteries that George writes specially for us hardcore readers, he certainly does. But when something like this GoHH vision fits so perfectly with Sansa's hairnet at the wedding feast, I think that is what George wants the reader to think of. 

I love your creative, outside the box thinking. I encourage it! But I also think it is important to remember what the author is intending for the reader to see.

True. Very true. 

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9 hours ago, Megorova said:

There's four visions, not three, so each of them could be about a different Stark.

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

1. Robb or most likely Jon, after Ned's execution. The wolf is grieving, thus someone died. And no one hears him, because he is alone. Like Jon was away from other Starks, on The Wall. Or Robb, after he found out about death of his brothers. And the rain can signify Ironborn, same as the sea in Jojen's vision.

2. Red Wedding. If those little bells is Frey's grandson, killed by Cat.

3. Sansa at Purple Wedding.

4. Arya. And it's the same maid, even though it's two different characters, because both of them are Starks. Lady Stark Sansa in third vision, and Lady Stark Arya in the last, because at that time Sansa is pretending that she's Alayne.

Three. Wasn't Grey Wind howling as it rained during the killing at the Twins, even as Catelyn sawed Jinglebell's throat to the bone? 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also this: "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death." - What's your opinion, who can be this lord, that smells like death?

Beric. 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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9 hours ago, Megorova said:

He saved them both, more than once. And Jaime also tried (or thought that he will try) to bring them back to their mother. So two out of three of those shadows, turned out to be saviours, for both Arya and Sansa, that were also seen in Bran's coma-dream.

You're putting the horses before the cart. The vision doesn't imply one way or the other for the first two shadows, only that they are somehow important, and the third one is clearly a malevolent presence. It can work as non-malevolent versus malevolent, but it is in no way a given.

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Varys isn't any better. In some sense he's even worse. LF at least doesn't lie to himself or others, why he's doing all of it - for power and wealth. And Varys most likely is a Blackfyre, and he does all of it, for the sake of revenge, and to get Iron Throne for Blackfyres. But he's pretending, that he's doing it for the sake of realm and its people.

It's not about who is better or worse, Varys is definitely a terrible person, as well, but the point is that Varys didn't plan or want the demise of House Stark. For him, it's not personal - if the Starks don't meddle in or turn out beneficial, he leaves them alone, if they get in the way, he throws them under the bus. He basically doesn't care. Whereas, Petyr engineering a situation in which Lannisters were bound to turn on the Starks, and as the ones more ruthless and in their own territory in KL, things were bound not to end well for Ned and House Stark.

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief,"

The only wolf howling in the rain I know about is Greywind, trying to warn Robb. The only time I can think about that rain is narratively or thematically important is the Red Wedding aka Frey going Rains of Castamere.

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

"I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells.

There is no other scene than Red Wedding where we get music interspersed with screams and a very sad moment involving little bells. It is no use looking at the individual elements of the vision, it must be all of them combined. Thus the second vision is tied to the first one, sort of explaining the wolf's grief.

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

The first two visions are connected through situation, and the third and fourth through the person.

 

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

In this thread is missing one crutial detail - the most important part of the crime, is the motive, the reason why was it commited. Why would Arya kill LF? I have a few ideas, why she may do it, or how she may find out about his participation in her family's doom. Though I'm interested, what's your opinion about this part. This is your thread, that Arya and not Sansa, is the slaying maid, but the motive why, and the means how, are missing in here.

The motive is clear - his crimes against House Stark. The only unknown factor is how Sansa or Arya find out. Sansa heard Lysa say that she put the tears in Jon Arryn's wine and blamed it on the Lannisters at Petyr's behest, but hasn't figured out what it means. Sandor and Barristan were present when Petyr held the dagger to Ned's throat, and Tyrion knows Petyr framed him for the attempt on Bran. When or if the characters converge, they may pass on the knowledge, and Bran might see it all on the weirnet. When his machinations are uncovered, death will be the penalty and his head, I hope, will be placed on the walls of Winterfell, like the scene with the doll foreshadowed. If Sansa orders the execution and someone else carries it out, or if she swings the blade herself like the Starks should, Petyr has had it long coming.

Show spoiler

Spoiler

IMHO, they finally got something right there (minus the sister against sister shenanigans, though I do believe Sansa should be confronted on her fateful decision to spill the beans to Cersei) - the characters converge, share their knowledge, act like a pack. A time for the wolves indeed.

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also this: "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death." - What's your opinion, who can be this lord, that smells like death?

Beric. Who has been killed and resurrected way too many times.

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Sansa witnessed this exchange...

Quote

Queen Cersei looked at each of the councilors in turn. "I won't have Sansa fretting needlessly. What shall we do with this little friend of hers, my lords?"

Lord Petyr leaned forward. "I'll find a place for her."

"Not in the city," said the queen.

"Do you take me for a fool?"

The queen ignored that. "Ser Boros, escort this girl to Lord Petyr's apartments and instruct his people to keep her there until he comes for her. Tell her that Littlefinger will be taking her to see her father, that ought to calm her down. I want her gone before Sansa returns to her chamber."

"As you command, Your Grace," Ser Boros said. He bowed deeply, spun on his heel, and took his leave, his long white cloak stirring the air behind him.

Sansa was confused. "I don't understand," she said. "Where is Jeyne's father? Why can't Ser Boros take her to him instead of Lord Petyr having to do it?" She had promised herself she would be a lady, gentle as the queen and as strong as her mother, the Lady Catelyn, but all of a sudden she was scared again. For a second she thought she might cry. "Where are you sending her? She hasn't done anything wrong, she's a good girl."

"She's upset you," the queen said gently. "We can't be having that. Not another word, now. LordBaelish will see that Jeyne's well taken care of, I promise you." She patted the chair beside her. "Sit down, Sansa. I want to talk to you."

Sansa IV, Game 51

So, Sansa should know that Petyr should know what happened to her “truest friend.” But this next bit suggests that Sansa has suppressed that knowledge...

Quote

If only she had someone to tell her what to do. She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked. Sansa was allowed to go riding too, but only in the bailey, and it got boring going round in a circle all day.

Sansa II, Clash 18

We would see that Sansa would go on to recall Jeyne at least three times, but apparently, she never thinks to ask Petyr what happened to her “truest friend” after he agreed to find a place for her outside King’s Landing. Of course, we learn that Petyr has pimped Sansa's  “truest friend” into a whore and pawned her off as Arya to Ramsay, who in turn, has abused her savagely. Thanks to Theon, Jeyne has escaped Ramsay, and Stannis then sends her on to Jon Snow at Castle Black with Justin Massey and Tycho Nestoris, both of hwom will be traveling on to Eastwatch and Braavos. And we should recall that Jon thinks to send Arya to Braavos if he can...

Quote

He wanted to believe it would be Arya. He wanted to see her face again, to smile at her and muss her hair, to tell her she was safe. She won' t be safe though. Winterfell is burned and broken and there are no more safe places.

He could not keep her here with him, no matter how much he might want to. The Wall was no place for a woman, much less a girl of noble birth. Nor was he about to turn her over to Stannis or Melisandre. The king would only want to marry her to one of his own men, Horpe or Massey or Godrey Giantslayer. and the gods alone knew what use the red woman might want to make of her.

The best solution he could see would mean dispatching her to Eastwatch and asking Cotter Pyke to put her on a ship to someplace across the sea, beyond the reach of all these quarrelsome kings. It would need to wait until the ships returned from Hardhome, to be sure. She could return to Braavos with Tycho Nestoris. Perhaps the Iron Bank could help find some noble family to foster her. Braavos was the nearest of the Free Cities, though … which made it both the best and the worst choice. Lorath or the Port of Ibben might be safer. Wherever he might send her, though, Arya would need silver to support her, a roof above her head, someone to protect her. She was only a child.

Jon IX, Dance 44

Sending Jeyne on to Braavos with Tycho Nestoriwould make sense for all the same reasons. Imagine what "no one" might learn if she meets Jeyne in Braavos...

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sending Jeyne on to Braavos with Tycho Nestoriwould make sense for all the same reasons. Imagine what "no one" might learn if she meets Jeyne in Braavos...

Considering that even after having her father and basically everyone she knows murdered, being press-ganged into Baelish's whorehouse, where she was whipped and "trained to please men," dressed up in Stark colors and sold off to the Boltons to marry Ramsay, she still made a point of throwing shade on Arya and taking credit for inventing "Horseface," I feel such a meeting wouldn't be as productive as it could be if Jeyne weren't still fundamentally the person who tells Arya about the Hound cutting her friend into so many pieces they had to return Mycah in a sack. Probably it won't help Jeyne that by then, she will most likely be missing part of her nose while Arya will be starting to develop the "wild beauty" her aunt was known for, although it might help Arya keep from slipping into the old inferiority.

Honestly, I sort of picture a reunion between those two being mostly Jeyne being hysterical and unintelligible and Arya wondering why she ever cared what this girl thought about her, but ultimately trying to help her feel safe, and then going off to find out for herself WTactualF was going on in Winterfell.

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29 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sending Jeyne on to Braavos with Tycho Nestoriwould make sense for all the same reasons. Imagine what "no one" might learn if she meets Jeyne in Braavos...

I brought this up a while back. You may be interested. Or not, haha.

 

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

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1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I brought this up a while back. You may be interested. Or not, haha.

 

I recall that thread, now that you mention it. You were thinking that Arya might take Jeyne's face and return to the north as fArya, right? 

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12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I recall that thread, now that you mention it. You were thinking that Arya might take Jeyne's face and return to the north as fArya, right? 

I think if Arya makes it back to the North, this would be the route George would have her take. Who knows though, just speculation. 

I believe Arya and fArya will have some sort of interaction in Braavos. 

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11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sending Jeyne on to Braavos with Tycho Nestoriwould make sense for all the same reasons. Imagine what "no one" might learn if she meets Jeyne in Braavos...

I wholeheartedly hope that Jeyne's testimony would be the founding stone of LF's demise because the fucker deserves it.

Not to mention that one has to wonder what else Jeyne might know - what she might have overheard, or deduced, or what Ramsay might have boasted in front of her.

11 hours ago, Therae said:

Considering that even after having her father and basically everyone she knows murdered, being press-ganged into Baelish's whorehouse, where she was whipped and "trained to please men," dressed up in Stark colors and sold off to the Boltons to marry Ramsay, she still made a point of throwing shade on Arya and taking credit for inventing "Horseface," I feel such a meeting wouldn't be as productive as it could be if Jeyne weren't still fundamentally the person who tells Arya about the Hound cutting her friend into so many pieces they had to return Mycah in a sack. Probably it won't help Jeyne that by then, she will most likely be missing part of her nose while Arya will be starting to develop the "wild beauty" her aunt was known for, although it might help Arya keep from slipping into the old inferiority.

Honestly, I sort of picture a reunion between those two being mostly Jeyne being hysterical and unintelligible and Arya wondering why she ever cared what this girl thought about her, but ultimately trying to help her feel safe, and then going off to find out for herself WTactualF was going on in Winterfell.

I think the "credit" was partly a mere correction, partly a coping mechanism. The girl is broken, and being pretty is her only asset, the only thing that she can take some comfort in. That is probably going to be taken from her. If she comes to Braavos, what is she going to do? She has nothing, no future. I don't think she has the making to become a no-one, but she might want to receive a gift, and Arya might be the one to deliver it.

Poor Jeyne. She was mean to Arya, but didn't deserve what was done to her.

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22 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sansa witnessed this exchange...

Sansa IV, Game 51

So, Sansa should know that Petyr should know what happened to her “truest friend.” But this next bit suggests that Sansa has suppressed that knowledge...

Sansa II, Clash 18

We would see that Sansa would go on to recall Jeyne at least three times, but apparently, she never thinks to ask Petyr what happened to her “truest friend” after he agreed to find a place for her outside King’s Landing. 

I'm not sure what opportunity Sansa even had to converse with Petyr in Kings Landing or why she would think she could trust him; he worked for Cersei after all for all she knew at that point. He'd been downright creepy at the jousting match. The book mentions so many times how she used courtesy as armor. When she's out we see her make pleasantries, not ask for help or draw attention to what's been done to her. The question isn't why WOULDN'T she ask about Jeyne, the marvel would have been if she did.

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4 hours ago, Bitterblooms said:

I'm not sure what opportunity Sansa even had to converse with Petyr in Kings Landing or why she would think she could trust him; he worked for Cersei after all for all she knew at that point. He'd been downright creepy at the jousting match. The book mentions so many times how she used courtesy as armor. When she's out we see her make pleasantries, not ask for help or draw attention to what's been done to her. The question isn't why WOULDN'T she ask about Jeyne, the marvel would have been if she did.

You have read the second half of Storm, and Feast, right?

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