Jump to content
Lost Melnibonean

Arya, not Sansa, is the maid that will slay Littlefinger, the savage giant

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You have read the second half of Storm, and Feast, right?

Lol, yes. I think I didn't get my whole thought out, haha. I'm talking about just the times before she fled with Dontos. After that things are, well, a whirlwind. And she might be curious about Jeyne but it's a moot point. She really has no choice but to "trust" him, and it's not like shed expect to see Jeyne around the corner. 

But now I need to go back and check to see how many times she thinks of her after She leaves kings landing, because depending on that I see your point...

Edited by Bitterblooms

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, now I'm wondering if Sansa has learned something, true or untrue, or suspected something is amiss about the fate of Jeyne off "screen." The only time Jeyne's name comes up in a search (which was obnoxious because Jeyne is apparently the most common name in westeros) of sos or affc is this:

 

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"Lothor Brune?" Myranda raised an eyebrow. "Does she know?" She did not wait for an answer. "He has no hope, poor man. My father's tried to make a match for Mya, but she'll have none of them. She is half mule, that one."

Despite herself, Alayne found herself warming to the older girl. She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole. "Do you think Ser Lothor likes her as she is, in mail and leather?" she asked the older girl, who seemed so worldly-wise. "Or does he dream of her draped in silks and velvets?"

 

Does she think of her as "poor Jeyne" just because of when they last saw each other? Given Cersei's character Sansa has no reason to think she was treated gently, anyway. 

Edited by Bitterblooms

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Bitterblooms said:

Hmm, now I'm wondering if Sansa has learned something, true or untrue, or suspected something is amiss about the fate of Jeyne off "screen." The only time Jeyne's name comes up in a search (which was obnoxious because Jeyne is apparently the most common name in westeros) of sos or affc is this:

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"Lothor Brune?" Myranda raised an eyebrow. "Does she know?" She did not wait for an answer. "He has no hope, poor man. My father's tried to make a match for Mya, but she'll have none of them. She is half mule, that one."

Despite herself, Alayne found herself warming to the older girl. She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole. "Do you think Ser Lothor likes her as she is, in mail and leather?" she asked the older girl, who seemed so worldly-wise. "Or does he dream of her draped in silks and velvets?"

There are two other times as well. The first is in Clash, when she prays to the Mother in the Sept. And the other is in 

Spoiler

Alayne, Winds. 

 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm leaping in from the wings, here.

I haven't read everything in the thread, just checked it out every couple of days, give or take ... so @Lost Melnibonean (or others) - feel free to take me to task, correct me,etc. etc. ( and apologies if this has already been well covered).

One of the things that makes me open to the second maid in GoHH's dream being Arya is this..

And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now."...ASoS, Arya VIII

That she suddenly turns to look at Arya at that juncture may be suggestive in itself, and I can't help feeling it may somehow connect to...

"Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed." She felt his fingers brushing back her hair. "Stay still. This will feel queer. You may be dizzy, but you must not move." ... ADWD, The Ugly Little Girl

It seems to me that Arya glamoured as Sansa is one way the OP's proposition could work out, in the end. We've seen her don a FM mask and in the Mercy chapter ,

Spoiler

we see she now has some expertise in the mummers' artifice.

We have yet to see her learn how to cast a glamour, but she (and we) have the Kindly Man's assertion that she shall.

Arya "cannot hide" from GoHH... People use glamours to hide their true identities.

I assume we can all agree the GoHH has wisdom. She's sharp-eyed enough to be able to look right at Arya through gloom when Arya is watching the scene through bushes (and note GoHH turns her head sharply).

Since this follows immediately after her "that maid again" dream (without skipping a beat), I wonder - can GoHH see through a glamour in her dreams? She recites the visions from her dreams and leaves it up to her listeners to interpret them, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have her own interpretations or some deeper knowledge.

For example in her first scene, in Arya IV, ASoS ... 

 I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. ... Makes no mention of a king or his death. Yet in her second scene in Arya VIII, as part of her "news" she tells them the king is dead.

"Which bloody king is dead, crone?" Lem demanded.

"The wet one. The kraken king, m'lords. I dreamt him dead and he died, and the iron squids now turn on one another. 

So, did she have another dream in the interim, or did she always understand that the  dream  from Arya IV would result in Balon's death? If she did, that could lend weight to the idea of Arya being glamoured as Sansa at some point, and Gohh being aware of it.

There might be another bit of foreshadowing in the Mercy chapter...

Spoiler

We don't yet know what Arya's role is in "The Bloody Hand", but it could well be a version of Sansa. In this case, Arya will first impersonate her sister using mummer's artifice. Will she go on to repeat the impersonation using a glamour?

Littlefinger could find himself up against a "Sansa" who can kill with equanimity, one who has some skill with weapons, and one who is well versed in the lying game. ... I'm not saying Arya would be sent for him, but she could soon have all the skills she would need to take on the mission herself. (See "Mercy" again.)

Just a little bit about Jeyne Poole. I agree that Jon may well send her to Braavos, but I don't think it would serve anyone to send her as Arya. I think he would do it out of kindness, after all she's been through.

Edited by bemused

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Bitterblooms said:

Does she think of her as "poor Jeyne" just because of when they last saw each other? Given Cersei's character Sansa has no reason to think she was treated gently, anyway.

Sansa may assume Jeyne is dead, like all the others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Arya V, Clash 19, just before she is taken by the Mountain that Rides, Arya and her band of orphans are very hungry, and they contemplate eating a swan, a crow, and a hawk. Let me see... Is there any character commonly associated with birds? Hmm...

(I still don’t think Arya would kill her sister, but this stood out to me this time round.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

As she slept amidst the rolling grasslands, Catelyndreamt that [1] Bran was whole again, that [2] Arya and Sansa held hands, that [3] Rickon was still a babe at her breast. [4] Robb, crownless, played with a wooden sword, and [5] when all were safe asleep, she found Ned in her bed, smiling.

Catelyn II, Clash 22

Since we know that the first, third, fourth, and fifth dreams are impossible, is the author telling us that the second is impossible too?

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Catelyn II, Clash 22

Since we know that the first, third, fourth, and fifth dreams are impossible, is the author telling us that the second is impossible too?

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn II      As she slept amidst the rolling grasslands, Catelyn dreamt that Bran was whole again, that Arya and Sansa held hands, that Rickon was still a babe at her breast. Robb, crownless, played with a wooden sword, and when all were safe asleep, she found Ned in her bed, smiling.    Sweet it was, sweet and gone too soon. Dawn came cruel, a dagger of light. She woke aching and alone and weary; weary of riding, weary of hurting, weary of duty. I want to weep, she thought. I want to be comforted. I'm so tired of being strong. I want to be foolish and frightened for once. Just for a small while, that's all . . . a day . . . an hour . . ./

Reads like a woman tired. Like a woman missing her husband and children.

Before anyone jumps on me comparing 21st century life to Westeros ---- it is possibly the only intimate vulnerable moment martin gives Cat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Chancho said:

Savage Giant is Robert Arryn... There is no use for "Savage" if it is Littlefinger.

Petyr thrives on chaos, no? Is "savage" so very far from "chaotic"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/9/2018 at 9:51 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Catelyn II, Clash 22

Since we know that the first, third, fourth, and fifth dreams are impossible, is the author telling us that the second is impossible too?

Under the sea, all sorts of things are possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/9/2018 at 2:28 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

In Arya V, Clash 19, just before she is taken by the Mountain that Rides, Arya and her band of orphans are very hungry, and they contemplate eating a swan, a crow, and a hawk. Let me see... Is there any character commonly associated with birds? Hmm...

(I still don’t think Arya would kill her sister, but this stood out to me this time round.)

I know you are thinking of Sansa but at a superficial glance I would break it down to each bird. Arya is the swan, Bran the crow and maybe Mel for the hawk. I'd have to read the chapter again to see if that fits or matters as symbolism. 

It is an interesting chapter and I recall Arya struggling with duality throughout. Taking another look at the birds in this light is intriguing. 

Quote

three black swans were gliding over the water, so serene . . . no one had told them that war had come, and they cared nothing for burning towns and butchered men. She stared at them with yearning. Part of her wanted to be a swan. The other part wanted to eat one.

Arya wishes to be the swan because of their serenity, but another part of her wants to eat it. Arya wants peace but fears she might devour it.

Quote

Her father had hunted boar in the wolfswood with Robb and Jon. Once he even took Bran, but never Arya, even though she was older. Septa Mordane said boar hunting was not for ladies, and Mother only promised that when she was older she might have her own hawk. She was older now, but if she had a hawk she'd eat it.

The hawk was not seen, it's a memory that symbolizes Arya not fitting into societal gender expectations. Arya acknowledges that she is ready for the hawk but she rejects it and knows she would devour it.

Quote

 

....[Arya]"There's crows down by the water. Something's dead there."

"Fish, washed up on shore," Hot Pie said. "If the crows eat it, I bet we could."

"We should catch some crows, we could eat them," said Lommy. "We could make a fire and roast them like chickens."....

....the nearest corpse twisted on its chain, ever so slightly. The crows had eaten most of its face.... ....The crows had eaten their eyes, and sometimes their faces....

....The guards were talking loudly, but she was too far away to make out the words, especially with the crows gabbling and flapping closer to hand....

...Hot Pie never once looked up, nor made a sound. Until the crow landed on his back, and he gave a muffled gasp. "Who's there?" a voice boomed suddenly from the dark. Hot Pie leapt to his feet. "I yield!" He threw away his sword as dozens of crows rose shrieking and complaining to flap about the corpses. Arya grabbed his leg and tried to drag him back down, but he wrenched loose and ran forward, waving his arms. "I yield, I yield." She bounced up and drew Needle, but by then men were all around her....

 

Arya never thinks about eating the crow, Lommy did and this is the chapter where he dies. Everyone is starving but the crows are feasting. She does notice the crows have eaten the faces off of the dead. A crow betrays her so she gets caught. In a later chapter she wishes to be a crow, to devour her enemies. 

Quote

The heads had been dipped in tar to slow the rot. Every morning when Arya went to the well to draw fresh water for Roose Bolton's basin, she had to pass beneath them. They faced outward, so she never saw their faces, but she liked to pretend that one of them was Joffrey's. She tried to picture how his pretty face would look dipped in tar. If I was a crow I could fly down and peck off his stupid fat pouty lips.

Finally it's interesting that they were black swans. (If somebody more familiar with symbolism could add their thoughts I'd appreciate it.) I think(?) black swans have some connection with suffering and vulnerability. Arya is surrounded by the suffering in the war-torn Riverlands so she feels laid bare. This is what she thinks right before seeing the swans.

Quote

Arya felt as though the lake were calling her. She wanted to leap into those placid blue waters, to feel clean again, to swim and splash and bask in the sun. But she dare not take off her clothes where the others could see, not even to wash them.

She dare not pluck her feathers and make herself more vulnerable. This mentality later on leads her to seek power to protect herself and others. The suffering puts her on the path of vengeance and death. She needs to find a symmetry between the black and white, it comes back to the duality in the chapter. Arya rejected the hawk, being a perfect lady, purity and perfection. So she needs to tame her wild side and it's sad to say but it seems the HoBaW is achieving this. Maybe reuniting with family will bring an equilibrium, there were three black swans - the swan has three heads. :-)

Maybe the crow can save her, I recall some folklore where a plucked white swan was given black feathers from a crow. But did the crow set her on the path to being a Faceless Man and is that a good thing? I think so on the former, her chapters are littered with clues which I won't get into now since this whole post already has nothing to do with the op. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

I know you are thinking of Sansa but at a superficial glance I would break it down to each bird. Arya is the swan, Bran the crow and maybe Mel for the hawk. I'd have to read the chapter again to see if that fits or matters as symbolism. 

It is an interesting chapter and I recall Arya struggling with duality throughout. Taking another look at the birds in this light is intriguing. 

Arya wishes to be the swan because of their serenity, but another part of her wants to eat it. Arya wants peace but fears she might devour it.

The hawk was not seen, it's a memory that symbolizes Arya not fitting into societal gender expectations. Arya acknowledges that she is ready for the hawk but she rejects it and knows she would devour it.

Arya never thinks about eating the crow, Lommy did and this is the chapter where he dies. Everyone is starving but the crows are feasting. She does notice the crows have eaten the faces off of the dead. A crow betrays her so she gets caught. In a later chapter she wishes to be a crow, to devour her enemies. 

Finally it's interesting that they were black swans. (If somebody more familiar with symbolism could add their thoughts I'd appreciate it.) I think(?) black swans have some connection with suffering and vulnerability. Arya is surrounded by the suffering in the war-torn Riverlands so she feels laid bare. This is what she thinks right before seeing the swans.

She dare not pluck her feathers and make herself more vulnerable. This mentality later on leads her to seek power to protect herself and others. The suffering puts her on the path of vengeance and death. She needs to find a symmetry between the black and white, it comes back to the duality in the chapter. Arya rejected the hawk, being a perfect lady, purity and perfection. So she needs to tame her wild side and it's sad to say but it seems the HoBaW is achieving this. Maybe reuniting with family will bring an equilibrium, there were three black swans - the swan has three heads. :-)

Maybe the crow can save her, I recall some folklore where a plucked white swan was given black feathers from a crow. But did the crow set her on the path to being a Faceless Man and is that a good thing? I think so on the former, her chapters are littered with clues which I won't get into now since this whole post already has nothing to do with the op. 

Pretty sure I said, "Arya and her band of orphans are very hungry, and they contemplate eating a swan, a crow, and a hawk."

I do appreciate your analysis. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Petyr thrives on chaos, no? Is "savage" so very far from "chaotic"?

Well i think martin chooses his words very carefully... He wouldn't define Littlefinger as a Savage, but i could be wrong... That whole sentece applies too well to Sweet Robin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Pretty sure I said, "Arya and her band of orphans are very hungry, and they contemplate eating a swan, a crow, and a hawk."

I do appreciate your analysis. 

Sorry, that was not meant as a criticism of what you said Lost Melnibonean, I was just thinking on a different track.  :cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

Sorry, that was not meant as a criticism of what you said Lost Melnibonean, I was just thinking on a different track.  :cheers:

I sure know how that goes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Erm...yes? The two mean totally different things

Undeniably, but what what impression do the two words used together evoke; a wild and uncontrollable actor in a wild and uncontrollable environment, no? 

sav·age

ˈsavij/

adjective

1.

(of an animal or force of nature) fierce, violent, and uncontrolled.

"tales of a savage beast"

synonyms:ferocious, fierce; 

wild, untamed, untameable, undomesticated, feral

"savage dogs"

cha·os

ˈkāˌäs/

noun

noun: chaos; plural noun: chaoses

complete disorder and confusion.

"snow caused chaos in the region"

synonyms: disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, uproar, maelstrom; muddle, mess, shambles, free-for-all; anarchy, lawlessness, entropy; informal hullabaloo, hoopla, train wreck, all hell broken loose

"police were called in to quell the chaos"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't this suggest that Petyr might be a savage giant...

Quote

And the truth of Jon Arryn's death still eluded him. Oh, he had found a few pieces, enough to convince him that Jon had indeed been murdered, but that was no more than the spoor of an animal on the forest floor. He had not sighted the beast itself yet, though he sensed it was there, lurking, hidden, treacherous.

Eddard VIII, Game 33

Since we find out at the end of Storm that Petyr was the big bad behind the murder of Jon Arryn, and since we know that the little bugger maneuvered House Stark into death and ruin, the author is comparing Petyr to The Beast, actually to the shadow of the beast unseen, in the passage above. And even though Eddard is hunting the beast, the imagery at the end suggests that it's the other way round. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even without that quote: Petyr is a beast, lurking in ambush, to tear into pieces whomever he chooses to. Then he licks his claws clean and goes exhibit his soft fur and seemingly harmless demeanor. All those calm, civilised manners, that is  mask, and what is underneath is not pretty in the least - black, thick blood of utter corruption.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×