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Lost Melnibonean

Arya, not Sansa, is the maid that will slay Littlefinger, the savage giant

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5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But if Arya resembles Sansa, colors her hair and does a little voodoo, when she sticks the Needle in, then the woods witch would still be right. 

No need for that with a girl who will likely know glamors. That said, I do not think Littlefinger is the savage giant.

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On 2/16/2016 at 10:52 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

In Sansa I, Storm 6, The Bear and the Maiden Fair was was written to underscore Sansa's emotions when she met the Queen of Thorns, at first believing the Tyrells would we'd her to Loras, and then realizing that they intended to wed her to the cripple Willas. 

In Jon I, Storm 7, The Dornishman's Wife was written to foreshadow Able's fate at Winterfell when we met the Mance. 

Then, in Arya II, Storm 13, we get this...

 

 

Is the fair maid Arya or Sansa? Sansa doesn't really have anything to do with Arya II, Storm 13. That last line, "we'll rest in the shade," suggests somebody is gonna die, apparently the "fair maid." So who is going to kill the fair maid? 

How are you connecting the song to Arya?  The allusion to death at the end?  Are you insinuating that Arya kills "the girl from Gulltown" ie Sansa as Alayne?  Assuming the allusion is correct, she could "kill" Alayne by exposing her to be Sansa.

Other than the "laying in the shade," how else do you connect Arya to the song?

 

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As for Arya being the maid that slays the giant (ie LF), I think it's possible that Sansa and another (possibly Arya or SR) might somehow cooperate in LF's downfall, and potentially death, together. 

GOHH's prophecy foreshadows LF's downfall via Sansa.  The next foreshadowing comes in the form of the "death" of the doll attacking Snow-Winterfell, but this time, Sansa uses assistance from another to do the deed: note how SR and Sansa "kill" the giant together, although neither intended for the doll to lose its head.

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47 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

How are you connecting the song to Arya?  The allusion to death at the end?  Are you insinuating that Arya kills "the girl from Gulltown" ie Sansa as Alayne?  Assuming the allusion is correct, she could "kill" Alayne by exposing her to be Sansa.

Other than the "laying in the shade," how else do you connect Arya to the song?

 

I'm going off the deep end here, but maybe she disguises herself to as Petyr to kill Sansa? 

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1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I'm going off the deep end here, but maybe she disguises herself to as Petyr to kill Sansa? 

I see Arya blowing the whistle of LF, if anything, but not killing Sansa.  Why should she kill her?  The didn't get along in most of Games, but I think they are passed that, at least for the most part.

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"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now."

Cold fingers walked down Arya's neck. Fear cuts deeper than swords, she reminded herself. She stood and approached the fire warily, light on the balls of her feet, poised to flee.

 

The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . . " She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

 

Very interesting. I'll share some thoughts on this too.

The GoHH's 'prophecy' isn't really a prophcey - all she does is recall scenes she dreams and if we didn't know about the two weddings, we wouldn't have any idea what she's talking about. As already noted, the two previous scenes all involve substitutes - Catelyn wanted to kill Walder Frey but couldn't reach him, so she grabbed poor Jinglebell instead. Sansa with her 'purple serpents' also a pawn. It appears the woods witch initially really thinks it's Sansa in the shadows - she smiles, seems happy to see her but her mood changes entirely when she realizes who stands before her. 

So I think you're right about Arya's role, especially because she, like Sansa, also destroys another child's toy - the toy knight belonging to a girl who keeps following her around. Initially, this may sem to point to Gregor Clegane and perhaps more so when we consider Jon's strange thoughts as he watches Wun-Wun tear up Ser Patrek of the Mountain

Quote

The giant was dangling a bloody corpse by one leg, the same way Arya used to dangle her doll when she was small, swinging it like a morningstar when menaced by vegetables. Arya never tore her dolls to pieces, though.

Arya never tore her dolls to pieces - that's actually what Sansa does to Sweetrobin's 'giant' toy. Arya's methods are more subtle - she's a deadly assassin (more support for Arya). But I feel there's an even bigger twist to all this. Gregor Cleagane isn't the 'Giant' either. I think his brutality is a clue to the real 'giant' - Ramsay Bolton or perhaps Roose, but I'd go for Ramsay. My reasoning: the castle made of snow in the GoHH's dream is the real clue - it's Winterfell and like the real Winterfell, the mock snow castle is destroyed. Sansa's snow castle is destroyed by a toy giant, while Winterfell is destroyed by Ramsay, whose brutality matches that of Gregor. There's a further hint at the end of the snow castle scene where LF talks about giant's heads on spikes on the Walls of Winterfell (okay, that could be interpreted in different ways). But the best clue in this context is Jon's mention of vegetables. Such an odd statement until you remember that Jon wished he could build glass gardens like those at Winterfell at the Wall - to grow vegetables during the winter. The glass gardens are of course also in ruins.  

It seems the 'giant' is at Winterfell itself and that's where Ramsay is. I don't expect him to leave his post that soon. Walda Frey is with child, a possible new Heir to the Dreadfort. Winterfell is Ramsay's prize and Arya is not likely to let him keep it. News travels to all corners of the world. Should Arya hear of Jon's treacherous death and the Bolton involvement in Robb's and Catelyn's death, she will have quite a number of people to add to her prayer list as well. I see her making her way to the Wall to avenge them, making Mel's 'grey girl on a dying horse' finally come true. Mel will be on hand to glamour her, though here I'm not sure which object of Sansa's might be available for the spell. But perhaps Jeyne Poole, also on her way to the Wall, may be able to provide some item once belonging to Sansa. 

I think the 'sheep' lead down another path altogether. As LF leads Sansa round his domain on the Fingers, he inquires about his sheep and is told there are 23, reduced from 29. The number seems significant and relevant to the Iron Bank's 23 founders, the 'key holders'. It's odd he's not bothered by the 'shepherds' but troubled by the sheep. Perhaps his family belonged to the impoverished group still holding on to their keys and one of his principal aims is to regain the wealth, honours and position on the Iron Bank's secret council.

 

 

 

Edited by Evolett

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4 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I see Arya blowing the whistle of LF, if anything, but not killing Sansa.  Why should she kill her?  The didn't get along in most of Games, but I think they are passed that, at least for the most part.

Truly, I don't  believe no one, Arya, or anyone else will kill Sansa. 

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9 hours ago, Evolett said:

Very interesting. I'll share some thoughts on this too.

The GoHH's 'prophecy' isn't really a prophcey - all she does is recall scenes she dreams and if we didn't know about the two weddings, we wouldn't have any idea what she's talking about. As already noted, the two previous scenes all involve substitutes - Catelyn wanted to kill Walder Frey but couldn't reach him, so she grabbed poor Jinglebell instead. Sansa with her 'purple serpents' also a pawn. It appears the woods witch initially really thinks it's Sansa in the shadows - she smiles, seems happy to see her but her mood changes entirely when she realizes who stands before her. 

So I think you're right about Arya's role, especially because she, like Sansa, also destroys another child's toy - the toy knight belonging to a girl who keeps following her around. Initially, this may sem to point to Gregor Clegane and perhaps more so when we consider Jon's strange thoughts as he watches Wun-Wun tear up Ser Patrek of the Mountain

Arya never tore her dolls to pieces - that's actually what Sansa does to Sweetrobin's 'giant' toy. Arya's methods are more subtle - she's a deadly assassin (more support for Arya). But I feel there's an even bigger twist to all this. Gregor Cleagane isn't the 'Giant' either. I think his brutality is a clue to the real 'giant' - Ramsay Bolton or perhaps Roose, but I'd go for Ramsay. My reasoning: the castle made of snow in the GoHH's dream is the real clue - it's Winterfell and like the real Winterfell, the mock snow castle is destroyed. Sansa's snow castle is destroyed by a toy giant, while Winterfell is destroyed by Ramsay, whose brutality matches that of Gregor. There's a further hint at the end of the snow castle scene where LF talks about giant's heads on spikes on the Walls of Winterfell (okay, that could be interpreted in different ways). But the best clue in this context is Jon's mention of vegetables. Such an odd statement until you remember that Jon wished he could build glass gardens like those at Winterfell at the Wall - to grow vegetables during the winter. The glass gardens are of course also in ruins.  

It seems the 'giant' is at Winterfell itself and that's where Ramsay is. I don't expect him to leave his post that soon. Walda Frey is with child, a possible new Heir to the Dreadfort. Winterfell is Ramsay's prize and Arya is not likely to let him keep it. News travels to all corners of the world. Should Arya hear of Jon's treacherous death and the Bolton involvement in Robb's and Catelyn's death, she will have quite a number of people to add to her prayer list as well. I see her making her way to the Wall to avenge them, making Mel's 'grey girl on a dying horse' finally come true. Mel will be on hand to glamour her, though here I'm not sure which object of Sansa's might be available for the spell. But perhaps Jeyne Poole, also on her way to the Wall, may be able to provide some item once belonging to Sansa. 

I think the 'sheep' lead down another path altogether. As LF leads Sansa round his domain on the Fingers, he inquires about his sheep and is told there are 23, reduced from 29. The number seems significant and relevant to the Iron Bank's 23 founders, the 'key holders'. It's odd he's not bothered by the 'shepherds' but troubled by the sheep. Perhaps his family belonged to the impoverished group still holding on to their keys and one of his principal aims is to regain the wealth, honours and position on the Iron Bank's secret council.

 

 

 

So you're suggesting that Arya is the maid, Ramsay is the giant, and Winterfell is the castle, right? Interesting theory...

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On 2/16/2016 at 11:52 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

In Sansa I, Storm 6, The Bear and the Maiden Fair was was written to underscore Sansa's emotions when she met the Queen of Thorns, at first believing the Tyrells would we'd her to Loras, and then realizing that they intended to wed her to the cripple Willas. 

In Jon I, Storm 7, The Dornishman's Wife was written to foreshadow Able's fate at Winterfell when we met the Mance. 

Then, in Arya II, Storm 13, we get this...

 

 

Is the fair maid Arya or Sansa? Sansa doesn't really have anything to do with Arya II, Storm 13. That last line, "we'll rest in the shade," suggests somebody is gonna die, apparently the "fair maid." So who is going to kill the fair maid? 

Hmm... Right after Arya agrees to travel with Tom, the singer calls for another song, and Hot Pie sings The Bear and the Maiden Fair, Sansa's song.

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10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So you're suggesting that Arya is the maid, Ramsay is the giant, and Winterfell is the castle, right? Interesting theory...

Yes, exactly. The GoHH's visions all contain one major clue - in the first vision, it's the discordant music and most of all the sad sound of (Jingle) bells. Purple serpents make it easy to connect to the Purple Wedding and in the third vision, the castle made of snow is the focus. The author devotes a lot of space to the snow castle, to the making of it and he does this in great detail.  And of course we have LF's line about ancient stories involving the slaying of giants by the Starks of Winterfell at Winterfell. Lastly, we get the scene of destruction by Sweetrobin and his 'giant' toy. All this points to Winterfell as the location of the slaying, not the Eyrie.

LF's role in helping to construct bridges and the glass gardens is especially noteworthy, methinks. His help and knowledge which flow into the actual building even suggest he's set up as Bran the Builder here. Now this is an alien .notion, even to one like me (try to think out of the box) but the scene does imply it, lol. 

If I had to assign a a parallel to the Eyrie itself, it would definitely be the Wall. The height, the snowbound Giant's Lance,  the 'bucket' that recalls the winch - that's the Wall. 

Of course, this doesn't rule out LF as the target, especially if he should be at WF at some point. But somehow I don't think so and even less so if we put ourselves in Arya's shoes and take her quest for righteous justice into account. The murderers of her brothers and her mother will be the priority and end up on her list. She will go after them. Unless she finds out about LF's involvement in her father's demise, at present and on face value, she has no reason to go after LF. Quite the contrary, because he 'rescues' her sister from the clutches of the hated Lannisters, many of whom she targeted.  

So my choice is Ramsay and wouldn't it be sweet if Arya takes him down? :)

ETA - Ramsay would jump at the chance to bed and violate yet another Stark maiden. Having lost Jeyne Poole and perhaps knowing Jeyne was a fake, Arya, camouflaged as Sansa shouldn't face any problems in seducing him. She's already used these tactics in the case of Raff and I think that scene sets the stage for the next one in line.

Edited by Evolett

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18 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Yes, exactly. The GoHH's visions all contain one major clue - in the first vision, it's the discordant music and most of all the sad sound of (Jingle) bells. Purple serpents make it easy to connect to the Purple Wedding and in the third vision, the castle made of snow is the focus. The author devotes a lot of space to the snow castle, to the making of it and he does this in great detail.  And of course we have LF's line about ancient stories involving the slaying of giants by the Starks of Winterfell at Winterfell. Lastly, we get the scene of destruction by Sweetrobin and his 'giant' toy. All this points to Winterfell as the location of the slaying, not the Eyrie.

LF's role in helping to construct bridges and the glass gardens is especially noteworthy, methinks. His help and knowledge which flow into the actual building even suggest he's set up as Bran the Builder here. Now this is an alien .notion, even to one like me (try to think out of the box) but the scene does imply it, lol. 

If I had to assign a a parallel to the Eyrie itself, it would definitely be the Wall. The height, the snowbound Giant's Lance,  the 'bucket' that recalls the winch - that's the Wall. 

Of course, this doesn't rule out LF as the target, especially if he should be at WF at some point. But somehow I don't think so and even less so if we put ourselves in Arya's shoes and take her quest for righteous justice into account. The murderers of her brothers and her mother will be the priority and end up on her list. She will go after them. Unless she finds out about LF's involvement in her father's demise, at present and on face value, she has no reason to go after LF. Quite the contrary, because he 'rescues' her sister from the clutches of the hated Lannisters, many of whom she targeted.  

So my choice is Ramsay and wouldn't it be sweet if Arya takes him down? :)

 

Actually, I'm hoping Big Bucket'll get to Ramsay and Roose...

"Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."

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18 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Actually, I'm hoping Big Bucket'll get to Ramsay and Roose...

 

 

Big Bucket - I had forgotten him but let's look at what transpires before he makes that statement.

Quote

Ned’s girl,” echoed Big Bucket Wull. “And we should have had her and the castle both if you prancing southron jackanapes didn’t piss your satin breeches at a little snow.”
“A little snow?” Peasebury’s soft girlish mouth twisted in fury. “Your ill counsel forced this march upon us, Wull. I am starting to suspect you have been Bolton’s creature all along. Is that the way of it? Did he send you to us to whisper poison in the king’s ear?”

'Big Bucket' recalls the bucket at the Eyrie - Big Bucket wants to rescue both Ned's girl and take WF. Note how Peasebury's statement echoes LF's involvement in Joff's death (did he send you to us to whisper poison in the king's ear).

Further down, Big Bucket is again set up as LF - notice the similarity to the Eyrie, right down to the tears freezing on his cheeks, recalling Ayssa's tears which evaporate before they can really fall:

Quote

That seemed to amuse the northman. “I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.
“Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks

Then comes the Bolton quote. So we can infer that one of LF's motives is to depose the Boltons. Marrying Sansa to Harry the Heir and reinstating her as the Lady of Winterfell achieves this purpose as he himself states:

Quote

So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa … Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That’s worth another kiss now, don’t you think?”

So perhaps the whole thing is more complicated than we imagine. I still see Arya as the one who carries out the mission, perhaps with the help of the Wulls and other Northmen who are equally committed to ousting the Boltons. 

 

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1 hour ago, Evolett said:

Big Bucket - I had forgotten him but let's look at what transpires before he makes that statement.

'Big Bucket' recalls the bucket at the Eyrie - Big Bucket wants to rescue both Ned's girl and take WF. Note how Peasebury's statement echoes LF's involvement in Joff's death (did he send you to us to whisper poison in the king's ear).

Further down, Big Bucket is again set up as LF - notice the similarity to the Eyrie, right down to the tears freezing on his cheeks, recalling Ayssa's tears which evaporate before they can really fall:

Then comes the Bolton quote. So we can infer that one of LF's motives is to depose the Boltons. Marrying Sansa to Harry the Heir and reinstating her as the Lady of Winterfell achieves this purpose as he himself states:

So perhaps the whole thing is more complicated than we imagine. I still see Arya as the one who carries out the mission, perhaps with the help of the Wulls and other Northmen who are equally committed to ousting the Boltons. 

 

Good stuff. I'm not buying it yet, but you have me wondering. 

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19 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hmm... Right after Arya agrees to travel with Tom, the singer calls for another song, and Hot Pie sings The Bear and the Maiden Fair, Sansa's song.

And that's the way Sansa recalls her encounter with Sandor, him stealing a kiss with the point of his blade. Well, he used his blade, but he didn't steal a kiss, rape her, or kill her, even though that was his intention. 

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16 hours ago, Evolett said:

Yes, exactly. The GoHH's visions all contain one major clue - in the first vision, it's the discordant music and most of all the sad sound of (Jingle) bells. Purple serpents make it easy to connect to the Purple Wedding and in the third vision, the castle made of snow is the focus. The author devotes a lot of space to the snow castle, to the making of it and he does this in great detail.  And of course we have LF's line about ancient stories involving the slaying of giants by the Starks of Winterfell at Winterfell. Lastly, we get the scene of destruction by Sweetrobin and his 'giant' toy. All this points to Winterfell as the location of the slaying, not the Eyrie.

LF's role in helping to construct bridges and the glass gardens is especially noteworthy, methinks. His help and knowledge which flow into the actual building even suggest he's set up as Bran the Builder here. Now this is an alien .notion, even to one like me (try to think out of the box) but the scene does imply it, lol. 

If I had to assign a a parallel to the Eyrie itself, it would definitely be the Wall. The height, the snowbound Giant's Lance,  the 'bucket' that recalls the winch - that's the Wall. 

Of course, this doesn't rule out LF as the target, especially if he should be at WF at some point. But somehow I don't think so and even less so if we put ourselves in Arya's shoes and take her quest for righteous justice into account. The murderers of her brothers and her mother will be the priority and end up on her list. She will go after them. Unless she finds out about LF's involvement in her father's demise, at present and on face value, she has no reason to go after LF. Quite the contrary, because he 'rescues' her sister from the clutches of the hated Lannisters, many of whom she targeted.  

So my choice is Ramsay and wouldn't it be sweet if Arya takes him down? :)

ETA - Ramsay would jump at the chance to bed and violate yet another Stark maiden. Having lost Jeyne Poole and perhaps knowing Jeyne was a fake, Arya, camouflaged as Sansa shouldn't face any problems in seducing him. She's already used these tactics in the case of Raff and I think that scene sets the stage for the next one in line.

Doesn't this suggest that Arya will never return to Winterfell?

Warm and dry in a corner between Gendry and Harwin, Arya listened to the singing for a time, then closed her eyes and drifted off to sleep. She dreamt of home; not Riverrun, but Winterfell. It was not a good dream, though. She was alone outside the castle, up to her knees in mud. She could see the grey walls ahead of her, but when she tried to reach the gates every step seemed harder than the one before, and the castle faded before her, until it looked more like smoke than granite. And there were wolves as well, gaunt grey shapes stalking through the trees all around her, their eyes shining. Whenever she looked at them, she remembered the taste of blood.

Arya III, Storm 18

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7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Doesn't this suggest that Arya will never return to Winterfell?

 

Arya III, Storm 18

It does suggest that. It also reminds me of Bran's weirwood vision, where he sees the white-haired woman sacrificing the man under Winterfell's weirwood and tastes the blood. 

 

Edited by Evolett

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On 2/17/2016 at 8:37 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

But if Arya resembles Sansa, colors her hair and does a little voodoo, when she sticks the Needle in, then the woods witch would still be right. 

I guess, but Arya and Sansa dont look alike, and anything that needs VooDoo to make it work probably wont be the way GRRM goes...

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16 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

I guess, but Arya and Sansa dont look alike, and anything that needs VooDoo to make it work probably wont be the way GRRM goes...

Really? I think he does it all the time. What is glamouring and putting on faces if not supernatual? Long live voodoo in asoiaf :D

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