Arya, not Sansa, is the maid that will slay Littlefinger, the savage giant

[TheSnowInWinterfell]

41 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Really? I think he does it all the time. What is glamouring and putting on faces if not supernatual? Long live voodoo in asoiaf 

 

 

Point taken. I guess its just the term VooDoo got me. But really, unless Sansa dies and Arya uses her face. Or gets a lot more training. Then there is the whole thing about FM not killing people they know. maybe the waif kills LF wearing Sansa's face.

[Evolett]

4 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

Point taken. I guess its just the term VooDoo got me. But really, unless Sansa dies and Arya uses her face. Or gets a lot more training. Then there is the whole thing about FM not killing people they know. maybe the waif kills LF wearing Sansa's face.

I don't think Sansa has to die for Arya to be disguised as her. We've seen Mel's glamour spell work very well on Mance and the Lord of Bones. Everyone was fooled. The kindly man does state that taking on a new face is the most durable form of disguise but nobody noticed the difference with Mance. Arya may end up at the Wall - I expect her to because I cannot imagine her not trying to avenge Jon's death. They might meet some other place, who knows, but I think there will be a meeting and when that happens, Mel could very well glamour her accordingly. 

[TheSnowInWinterfell]

8 minutes ago, Evolett said:

I don't think Sansa has to die for Arya to be disguised as her. We've seen Mel's glamour spell work very well on Mance and the Lord of Bones. Everyone was fooled. The kindly man does state that taking on a new face is the most durable form of disguise but nobody noticed the difference with Mance. Arya may end up at the Wall - I expect her to because I cannot imagine her not trying to avenge Jon's death. They might meet some other place, who knows, but I think there will be a meeting and when that happens, Mel could very well glamour her accordingly. 

She may, possibly, but will Arya be a FM at this point? or will she have run off? and does she know what part LF played in everything? Or is it Ramsey she's killing at WF? How does that avenge Jon?

 

IDK, I just dont see the GOHH being wrong about just 1 thing...

[Evolett]

16 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

She may, possibly, but will Arya be a FM at this point? or will she have run off? and does she know what part LF played in everything? Or is it Ramsey she's killing at WF? How does that avenge Jon?

 

IDK, I just dont see the GOHH being wrong about just 1 thing...

I think the OP is right about Arya. The GoHH's prophecy does show a pattern. The persons she sees in her visions are all substitutes for others in one way or another so the notion that Arya replaces Sansa isn't far-fetched at all. It's even implied by the way the GoHH first smiles when she see's Arya coming out of the shadows and then recognizes the she-wolf in her. Her reaction changes completely. As for whether Arya will remain with the FM, I can't say, but it's clear she doesn't stick to their rules of not killing people she knows. She knew who Raff was. I don't believe she was on a contract. She very much does her own thing when she gets the opportunity. 

Being so far away from what's happening in Westeros, she's probably unaware of certain people's roles in her family's downfall but news travels. She may find out about LF and Jon soon and it's no secret that the Bolton's have claimed Winterfell, their part in Robb's death is known. All good reasons for her to take revenge on any or all of these if she can. My feeling is Mel's vision of the grey girl on the dying horse will really come about in the form of Arya turning up at the Wall and from there anything's possible

[TheSnowInWinterfell]

16 minutes ago, Evolett said:

I think the OP is right about Arya. The GoHH's prophecy does show a pattern. The persons she sees in her visions are all substitutes for others in one way or another so the notion that Arya replaces Sansa isn't far-fetched at all. It's even implied by the way the GoHH first smiles when she see's Arya coming out of the shadows and then recognizes the she-wolf in her. Her reaction changes completely. As for whether Arya will remain with the FM, I can't say, but it's clear she doesn't stick to their rules of not killing people she knows. She knew who Raff was. I don't believe she was on a contract. She very much does her own thing when she gets the opportunity. 

Being so far away from what's happening in Westeros, she's probably unaware of certain people's roles in her family's downfall but news travels. She may find out about LF and Jon soon and it's no secret that the Bolton's have claimed Winterfell, their part in Robb's death is known. All good reasons for her to take revenge on any or all of these if she can. My feeling is Mel's vision of the grey girl on the dying horse will come really come about in the form of Arya turning up at the Wall and from there anything's possible

It seems there's alot that has to happen. First, Arya has to find out that LF was responsible for her families demise. Then she has to learn some 'voodoo' to wear Sansa's face. That could be through FM training or from meeting Melisandre. She has to get to the Wall to meet Mel (either with the power to wear Sansa's face or get close enough with Mel to get her to glam her) She will then get revenge for Jon AND decide going to Winterfell to kill LF is next on her agenda. (which LF is nowhere near at the moment)

 

So in effect, Mel cant go anywhere for this to work. LF has to decide that Winterfell is the place to be with Winter bearing down on Westeros. Arya has to decide that is her path to revenge when most of her list is in the Riverlands or KL. There is alot of moving parts, I just don't see it. 

[Slowpoke Martin]

Up til now, Littlefinger has only been propped up as some masterful and devious manipulator. We see his hand every now and then but it is only a taste of what he has in store. He has been consolidating whatever strength he has and that is where the story has left us.

It really doesn't matter who kills Littlefinger or even if he dies at all, his impact on the story is much more important. He has steadily grown into a tremendous power and is in position to accumulate much more. Since the beginning of the series LF has been an important factor in how the story went.

Varys and LF are presented as these big masterminds and yet we only know of Varys' Aegon scheme. LF better have some major payoff in the story otherwise it would have been a huge letdown.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

Up til now, Littlefinger has only been propped up as some masterful and devious manipulator. We see his hand every now and then but it is only a taste of what he has in store. He has been consolidating whatever strength he has and that is where the story has left us.

It really doesn't matter who kills Littlefinger or even if he dies at all, his impact on the story is much more important. He has steadily grown into a tremendous power and is in position to accumulate much more. Since the beginning of the series LF has been an important factor in how the story went.

Varys and LF are presented as these big masterminds and yet we only know of Varys' Aegon scheme. LF better have some major payoff in the story otherwise it would have been a huge letdown.

Petyr's role as the semi-secret big bad, the true antagonist to the Stark protagonists in the first act of A Song of Ice and Fire, is done. It concluded with the big reveal in the last chapter of Storm. He's now in a much more exposed role. I expect his arc will play out and end during the second act, which will culminate with the Second Dance of the Dragons before the George wraps it all up in the third act with the War for the Dawn. 

[Isobel Harper]

So, when I drink wine before I go to bed, sometimes I have wacky dreams.  

One night (probably inspired by this thread) I dreamed that Arya glamored herself to look like Sansa.  She kissed LF in order to get close to him.  In the middle of the kiss, she changed the glamor to Ned.  So, when LF pulled away and opened his eyes, he was kissing Ned.  

Just thought I'd share.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

So, when I drink wine before I go to bed, sometimes I have wacky dreams.  

One night (probably inspired by this thread) I dreamed that Arya glamored herself to look like Sansa.  She kissed LF in order to get close to him.  In the middle of the kiss, she changed the glamor to Ned.  So, when LF pulled away and opened his eyes, he was kissing Ned.  

Just thought I'd share.

Oh man, it's like I have a glass candle! 

[Ygrain]

On 5. 1. 2017 at 7:02 AM, Isobel Harper said:

So, when I drink wine before I go to bed, sometimes I have wacky dreams.  

One night (probably inspired by this thread) I dreamed that Arya glamored herself to look like Sansa.  She kissed LF in order to get close to him.  In the middle of the kiss, she changed the glamor to Ned.  So, when LF pulled away and opened his eyes, he was kissing Ned.  

Just thought I'd share.

I wish you could have made a screenshot of LF's expression! 

 

Either way, while the option of Arya taking on Sansa's face cannot be ruled out, I still think that narratively, the one offing LF should be Sansa. He is the villain of her story arc, he has this unhealthy obsession with her because of her Cat-like looks. Of course, in the general sense he is the villain of all the Stark storylines, but with Sansa, it is way more personal, and while Sansa has done a lot of personal growth, she is far from finished, there should be some badassery crowning her development arc. I think that when Arya makes it back to Westeros, she might turn to eliminating the villain(s) she already knows about - the Freys. There's going to be a wedding, after all, and there's Nymeria's pack practically on the standby - with her warging skills and that wonderful stuff FM use to turn dogs into rabid killers, it wouldn't be Red Wedding 2.0 but Twitching Little Bits Wedding. And Lord Frey dies last, having watched all of his precious family exterminated.  - Or, if he doesn't attend the wedding, he might get some heads as a present.

As for LF's engame: I think that Radio Westeros got it right that his ultimate goal is to marry "Cat" and become the Lord of Winterfell. His actions involved house Stark in the events that brought their downfall, made Cat "accessible" and then dumped for the sake of a younger replacement which can be manipulated more easily. Two birds with one stone - revenge on the Starks who took what was "his", and a new Cat to obsess about. Plain sick - which makes the need for Sansa to be his doom even more necessary.

 

[Greywater-Watch]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

As for LF's engame:

Maybe we all do him wrong. He will be the ultimate weapon against The Others, sowing mistrust between them, so the Others kill each other and humanity is safe after all, thanks to Littlefinger.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Maybe we all do him wrong. He will be the ultimate weapon against The Others, sowing mistrust between them, so the Others kill each other and humanity is safe after all, thanks to Littlefinger.

Lol, yeah - if anyone could achieve that, it would be him

[Isobel Harper]

5 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Maybe we all do him wrong. He will be the ultimate weapon against The Others, sowing mistrust between them, so the Others kill each other and humanity is safe after all, thanks to Littlefinger.

I'm curious...  is it possible that he and Euron are in cahoots? 

[Vaith]

I think from a character perspective, it makes much more sense for Sansa to be the one to be directly complicit in Littlefinger's downfall.

Littlefinger isn't even on Arya's list - in fact, I don't even think she knows about his role in the AGOT coup. Sansa, on the other hand, is tied to LF from the start of the novels - right from AGOT she notices that his eyes and smile do not match. And then he continues to be instrumental in her story: helping her flee King's Landing, and essentially taking him on as his protegee who doubles as a substitute for his desire for Catelyn. She's going to be geographically closest to him in the next novels, she's the one who's been the most dependent on him the whole time - it just makes the most sense. Even if Arya learned of all that LF did, IMO the payoff still wouldn't be as great because she wouldn't have forged an important connection to him across the novels.

Now, of course, ASOIAF is great in building up prophecies that can be subverted and changed. But "later I dreamt that maid again" ... again is simply too explicit in my opinion, it just has to be the same woman, who is clearly Sansa because of the purple serpents. To be honest I'm not 100% about that prophecy line, but the two questions to me have always been who the giant is (Petyr or Gregor) and where the castle is (Harrenhal or Winterfell). To me the maid is Sansa, no question. And while she does see Arya's true nature (and/or what will become of her) she could definitely see that separately.

Also I don't think there's the same opportunity for narrative irony like the YMBQ prophecy because Arya had no idea who the maid with purple serpents in her hair was, and never thinks on the prophecy.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why does Arya have to take Sansa’s role? Yes Arya is more an assassin than Sansa but that doesn’t mean that she has to kill them all.

[Ser Creighton]

Whoever said Killing LF was Sansa's role? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but as far as I can tell LF hurt all the Starks. LF has been nicer to Sansa than almost anyone else, though he has his reasons and is using her. But he still rescued her, he still set her up in the Vail, she is in a rather safe place for the most part right now and more content than she has been in years. While all part of his manipulations she is still in a better place than she was and that is do to him.

Any  Stark has a right to go after him, just as any Stark has a right to go after the Boltons. Did Sansa get to off Joff? Did Tyrion? I would say Sansa had a right there, and she unknowingly took part in it, but she sure didn't take him out. Stannis may or may not wax the Boltons, remains to be seen for book readers. Why possibly him and not Jeyne or Theon, or Jon, or Arya? Or maybe one of them and not another. Will Loras get vengeance for Renly? Maybe, but probably not. Martin does not generally right that way, and on occasion he gives you that one moment but he is not a big payback guy more like justice can come to anyone and sometimes it does not come at all.

Fans do not get to decide a characters role as much as we sometimes would like too or hope too.

Arya has the skill and temperament to take someone out, but currently lack the proximity to effect LF or anyone like WF, LF, Cersei etc... Though that may change, Martin did not make her a faceless assassin for no reason. He did give her the tools to be lethal if need be and these tools seem to relate more to her future than her present which like many Characters is simply a training period. He is giving them tools they need for the future and it seems unlikely he made her Faceless because it would somehow be useful against the Others. Pretty sure the zombies don't care what she looks like or her name. So she is probably going to wax some asses and maybe cause some political turmoil, she can also frame plenty of people given her talents.

If she nails LF good for her, I don't see a debate in the books between her and Sansa of "no it was my turn to kill someone, or i'll flip you for it." Heck maybe Sansa plots with her, we shall see. Foreshadowing seems decent with Arya though.

 

[Ygrain]

On 11. 6. 2014 at 4:55 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

In the second set above we get Rob at the "red wedding," Sansa at the purple wedding, and... Sansa again? Really? Wouldn't the sets of prophecies from the ghost of High Heart be more elegant if the maid again was Arya?

Well, it just occured to me - it's not Sansa and Sansa again. It's Sansa as someone else's tool, and Sansa as an active heroine. A story arc of growth, if you will.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

Whoever said Killing LF was Sansa's role? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but as far as I can tell LF hurt all the Starks. LF has been nicer to Sansa than almost anyone else, though he has his reasons and is using her. But he still rescued her, he still set her up in the Vail, she is in a rather safe place for the most part right now and more content than she has been in years. While all part of his manipulations she is still in a better place than she was and that is do to him.

Any  Stark has a right to go after him, just as any Stark has a right to go after the Boltons. Did Sansa get to off Joff? Did Tyrion? I would say Sansa had a right there, and she unknowingly took part in it, but she sure didn't take him out. Stannis may or may not wax the Boltons, remains to be seen for book readers. Why possibly him and not Jeyne or Theon, or Jon, or Arya? Or maybe one of them and not another. Will Loras get vengeance for Renly? Maybe, but probably not. Martin does not generally right that way, and on occasion he gives you that one moment but he is not a big payback guy more like justice can come to anyone and sometimes it does not come at all.

Fans do not get to decide a characters role as much as we sometimes would like too or hope too.

Arya has the skill and temperament to take someone out, but currently lack the proximity to effect LF or anyone like WF, LF, Cersei etc... Though that may change, Martin did not make her a faceless assassin for no reason. He did give her the tools to be lethal if need be and these tools seem to relate more to her future than her present which like many Characters is simply a training period. He is giving them tools they need for the future and it seems unlikely he made her Faceless because it would somehow be useful against the Others. Pretty sure the zombies don't care what she looks like or her name. So she is probably going to wax some asses and maybe cause some political turmoil, she can also frame plenty of people given her talents.

If she nails LF good for her, I don't see a debate in the books between her and Sansa of "no it was my turn to kill someone, or i'll flip you for it." Heck maybe Sansa plots with her, we shall see. Foreshadowing seems decent with Arya though.

 

Oho! Do we have another? Well maybe you're still on the fence, but if we count all the fence sitters as 1/2, then by my count, I would say 6 and 1/2 believe Arya, not Sansa, will slay the Littlefinger, the savage giant. We are all waiting for the seventh! 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Well, it just occured to me - it's not Sansa and Sansa again. It's Sansa as someone else's tool, and Sansa as an active heroine. A story arc of growth, if you will.

C'mon Ygrain, deep down, you know this theory is true... You can be the seventh!

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

Whoever said Killing LF was Sansa's role? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but as far as I can tell LF hurt all the Starks. LF has been nicer to Sansa than almost anyone else, though he has his reasons and is using her. But he still rescued her, he still set her up in the Vail, she is in a rather safe place for the most part right now and more content than she has been in years. While all part of his manipulations she is still in a better place than she was and that is do to him.

And if LF didn't set up the Starks against the Lannisters and betray her father, she wouldn't have been in a bad place at all.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

C'mon Ygrain, deep down, you know this theory is true... You can be the seventh!

Nope, I'm afraid.