Why Targaryens have actual dragon blood.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I believe they have Targaryen blood besides things not in the texts, yes, related to the origins of the Valyrian-dragon connection. I think The World of Ice and Fire will have one or two tidbits on the subject.

OK, thanks.

[Dr. Pepper]

For example, children presented with dragon eggs and hatchlings. I can say that in every case in which a healthy hatchling was born, no Targaryen was ever rejected by it, so far as I can recall and find through a cursory search of what I have.

This doesn't hold up so well with what's actually been written. Rhaenyra was without a doubt rejected by a dragon. No 'right drop' of blood prevented her from becoming a tasty snack. I'm sure you'd consider Dany as a person with the 'right drop', yet Drogon had every intent to fry her. It wasn't until she told herself to be brave and subdued Drogon with the whip that the threat of bbq was removed. Quentyn had one dragon nearly in hand before the other dragon roasted him. Why would whips or horns need to be used if the right drop is what really matters? Why Rhaenyra's blood cause Sunfyre to eat her rather than to continue maintaining disinterest? Did just the wrong Arryn drop bubble from her breast?

ETA: I see another argument comes from deformed infants with scales and wings and such. While it's easy to suppose that this is further proof that there's actual magical genetic stuff going on, I wouldn't absolutely rule out the possibility that proximity to dragons -- who are, after all, magical creatures -- could lead to strange things to embryos in the womb. Like ... magical radiation.

I actually don't think this is so far-fetched. We've been shown negative consequences associated with the use of magic. If there are negative consequences with prolonged skinchanging, it would seem logical that the same might go for longterm engagement with other sorts of magic. I think the descriptions are more exaggerated than anything considering the people they were lodged against weren't savory individuals, but magical consequences could also be a thing.

I believe they have Targaryen blood besides things not in the texts, yes, related to the origins of the Valyrian-dragon connection. I think The World of Ice and Fire will have one or two tidbits on the subject.

Fingers crossed that these tidbits don't include your dragon/human mating theory.

[Buried Treasure]

Then we have older dragons, either ones that once had riders or perhaps never had riders. These can be dangerous -- especially if old and ill-tempered -- even to a Targaryen, but there's the sense that it's even worse for non-Targaryens (but hey, I can see the argument that it's just a recognition thing -- dragons may be more tolerant of silver-gold, purple-eyed people through long association with them). The belief is that you have to be of Targaryen blood -- or, lets be more general about it -- dragonlord blood to have a chance with these. But it's impossible to prove this 100% based on just the information provided in the texts, because you can never know if a "black swan" will or has shown up. That said, there's certainly a widespread belief that all dragonriders have had dragonlord blood somewhere in their lineage.

If it is a recognition thing, which is the camp I lean towards, then I'd suggest smell rather than appearance. I favour explanations that remember dragons are animals first and magical second, and many animals have superior sense of smell to humans - that is if genetically related humans do indeed smell alike because of pheromones of whatnot.

The recognition hypothesis only works for animals that have previously been tamed, but that covers most of the animals in our sample and leaving Nettles and Sheepsteeler as our only outlier.

An alternative explanation the method of taming the dragon. Nettles befriending Sheepstealer has been touched upon but successful attempts seem to have more often taken place in enclosed spaces. I was struck by how much the description of the dragonpit turned out to be like the inside Great Pyramid - reduce the spaces within the pyramid and take out the second dragon and so is very like a cell within the dragonpit and Quentyn possibily succeeds. Optimal taming conditions with chained and fed dragons is very likely to have been a factor in the relative success of Targaryen dragontamers. (Though this hypothesis leaves unanswered the question of where the Targs kept their dragons for the 100 years on Dragonstone. Caves? Perhaps the Dragonpit was built to replicate an environment that occurred naturally on Dragonstone? And ...stop me if I get too far into unfounded speculation but ...now I am thinking that the Westerosi dragons never grew so large not because they were shut on the dragonpit or because of the maesters but because they were not living in their natural habitat atop a volcano like the Valyrian and Dragonstone dragons.

The "dragon dreams" of Daenys the Dreamer, Daeron the Drunken, or Daemon II Blackfyre seems to match well enough with the idea that there's a distinctive, inherited kind of magic in the Targaryen line, possibly a broader dragonlord thing, we don't know. And given the prominence of dragons in such dreams -- even from people who exist after the dragons are dead, who never saw a living one -- it just seems natural to suppose that there's something "there" to it.

I would guess the more dragonlord blood you have, the likelier you'll have those aspects necessary for various expressions of Targaryen/dragonlord magic, whether it's prophetic dreams or sorcery or dragonriding, but having just a drop could in itself -- by the grace of the gods and the whim of GRRM -- be sufficient.

Again I will disagree with you. The magic ability of the Targaryens seem to me narrow not broad, and strictly limited to prophetic dreams.

Prophets seem able to see most easily events close to them - both close family and chronologically close. So when events further ahead in time are prophesied it seems to follow they are important events that will change the destinies of thousands of people. Dany's dragons are involved in such momentous events and the fires she has lit with them have already altered the fate of millions, to say nothing of what they may yet do, so I think it perfectly reasonable past prophets like Daeron foresaw these three dragons. And Daeron's prophecies that were fulfilled in his lifetime seemed to have had the dragons as proxies for his family members - if he had been an Arryn prophet he would have had rather more Falcon dreams.

[Ran]

This doesn't hold up so well with what's actually been written. Rhaenyra was without a doubt rejected by a dragon.

That's not a rejection. That dragon already had a rider. We're talking about bonding dragons.

I'm sure you'd consider Dany as a person with the 'right drop', yet Drogon had every intent to fry her.

And then she rode him. He accepted her as a rider. No one else will ride him while she lives. As I already noted, Targaryen dragons can be dangerous even to Targaryens -- they're wild animals that aren't ever really tame, even when they accept a rider.

Quentyn had one dragon nearly in hand before the other dragon roasted him.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but then, he has Targaryen blood, and may well have had what was needed to be a dragonrider. But it's not like being a dragonrider means all dragons become like kittens and fawn at you. That one dragon might calm down doesn't mean another might not bite your head off.

Why would whips or horns need to be used if the right drop is what really matters?

The dragonlord aspect of thing is, I believe, necessary -- it's what gets your foot through the door. It's not enough to get you everything. Again, as I noted, it's understood older dragons -- i.e. not hatchlings -- can be rather a lot more difficult to get to accept someone. But in all cases, there's reason to believe that all those accepted had dragonlord descent somewhere in their lineage.

Why Rhaenyra's blood cause Sunfyre to eat her rather than to continue maintaining disinterest? Did just the wrong Arryn drop bubble from her breast?

Dragons will eat what's put before them. I suppose a dragon will never eat its own rider, but obviously they're perfectly willing to or capable of killing or eating those who aren't riders. Though, IIRC, a point is made of the fact that Sunfyre doesn't really recognize he's to eat her until her blood is spilled.

Fingers crossed that these tidbits don't include your dragon/human mating theory.

Not mating, no.

Tuf Voyaging is an interesting read.

Buried Treasure,

The magic ability of the Targaryens seem to me narrow not broad, and strictly limited to prophetic dreams.

That's fine, but there's evidence that the dragonlords were dragonlords for magical reasons tied to dragons. Again, note that the key element in all the known prophetic Targaryen dreamers whose dreams we get any real substantial description of are dragon symbology and so on, even after dragons are long gone from the world.

Jojen and Bran don't dream of wolves or trees or whatever all the time -- Melisandre's flames don't just show her weirdly shaped shadows and fire. The Targaryen dreams we know of always seem to revolve around dragons -- the deaths of them, the hatching of them, and so on. Always, of course, symbolic, but still. It's a strange magic that constantly uses dragons as symbols without actually having anything to do with dragons at all.... unless, of course, the dragon dreams and the dragon riding all have a common source, namely the magical genetics of dragonlords.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Bingo.

You have not just the Targaryens, but the Velaryons and the Celtigars and the Baratheons too. Look at every house each of those families married into over the course of 300 years, and every house those houses married into, and those houses, on and on and on over three centuries. And that's to say nothing of any bastard descendants. Just Aegon IV's philandering alone probably yields hundreds if not thousands of potential descendants. Some milk maid or farmer or fisherman in the innkeep has "dragon blood" too, and probably many of them.

The amount of people having a drop of Targaryen blood even gets bigger, when you consider, that the Targaryen bloodline did not start with the invasion of Westeros, but that the family had been a prominent family of the Valyrian Freehold before its doom. Since Valyria seemed to have somewhat close ties with its colonies, it seems reasonable to assume, that the Targaryens had blood relatives in the Free Cities, who survived the doom.

About king Karl the Great, who lived a bit more than 1000 years ago, it is said, that for Wester/Central/Southern Europeans it is more likely to have him as an ancestor than to not have him as an ancestor. If one person managed this feat in a bit more than thousand years, the Targaryens should have managed to spread their blood all over the free cities, so that every marriage of a Westerosi with a person born in the Free Cities (and we know, that while these are rare, they nevertheless take place (Doran Martell, Orton Merryweather, the Darklyn who married the Lace Serpent, Symond Frey)) should give you dragonblood.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The amount of people having a drop of Targaryen blood even gets bigger, when you consider, that the Targaryen bloodline did not start with the invasion of Westeros, but that the family had been a prominent family of the Valyrian Freehold before its doom. Since Valyria seemed to have somewhat close ties with its colonies, it seems reasonable to assume, that the Targaryens had blood relatives in the Free Cities, who survived the doom.

About king Karl the Great, who lived a bit more than 1000 years ago, it is said, that for Wester/Central/Southern Europeans it is more likely to have him as an ancestor than to not have him as an ancestor. If one person managed this feat in a bit more than thousand years, the Targaryens should have managed to spread their blood all over the free cities, so that every marriage of a Westerosi with a person born in the Free Cities (and we know, that while these are rare, they nevertheless take place (Doran Martell, Orton Merryweather, the Darklyn who married the Lace Serpent, Symond Frey)) should give you dragonblood.

Yes, and there were some more than three-dozen other dragonlord families besides the Targaryens who would have married into Free City families and then down the line perhaps emigrated to Westeros.

[The Sleeper]

For example, children presented with dragon eggs and hatchlings. I can say that in every case in which a healthy hatchling was born, no Targaryen was ever rejected by it, so far as I can recall and find through a cursory search of what I have.

Then we have older dragons, either ones that once had riders or perhaps never had riders. These can be dangerous -- especially if old and ill-tempered -- even to a Targaryen, but there's the sense that it's even worse for non-Targaryens (but hey, I can see the argument that it's just a recognition thing -- dragons may be more tolerant of silver-gold, purple-eyed people through long association with them). The belief is that you have to be of Targaryen blood -- or, lets be more general about it -- dragonlord blood to have a chance with these. But it's impossible to prove this 100% based on just the information provided in the texts, because you can never know if a "black swan" will or has shown up. That said, there's certainly a widespread belief that all dragonriders have had dragonlord blood somewhere in their lineage.

I might suggest that it's more specific than dragonlord lineage, though. If it's a genetic thing, it's entirely possible that the particular genes required for a dragon to "sense" that you are an acceptable rider might skip a person -- they may look 100% Targaryen, and simply not have that particular thing. I can't think of any Targaryen who was actually rejected by a dragon, of course, but that doesn't necessarily mean much. But we may then see that in the dragonseeds, the converse can be true -- they may have very little dragonlord blood, but what portion they have happens to be exactly what's needed to permit them to ride a dragon.

The thing that casts a real doubt through is the apparent hundred percent success rate of Targaryens who got their dragons as hatchlings, and the danger older dragons presented to them. This would have been a staggering coincidence if it just so happened that the Targ's with that special something happened to have gotten viable eggs, or else the eggs hatched only around those Targs with that special something. That though would be something that the Targs would not be aware off or they would give all the eggs to those Targaryens. There is also the fact that there were hatcheries in Dragonsotne with apparently unattended dragons and the fact that if that special drop was real it stopped working suddenly for a hundred and fifty years. So I can't really see it working.

It's funny that you mentioned Tuff voyaging. I would be willing to accept the whole "it's magic" thing but in that particular book Martin makes up several fictional animals including details about their physiology and behavior, which prompts me to think that he has done so in ASoIaF as well. So I think the story of Nettles and the mention by Ghiscari about Valyrians fucking sheep is a hint about how Valyrians came to ride dragons in the first place.

[Ran]

Well, we don't have an older, riderless dragon actually killing any Targaryens or anything. I think it's more... consider some of he behavior we see from Dany's dragons -- they can be snappish, demanding, aggressive. You don't go messing with a bad-tempered old dragon, generally. They're not pets.

I'm not following what the 150 year thing is about. How do you mean?

[The Sleeper]

If that special drop was what caused the eggs to hatch in the first place (otherwise that special something cannot account for the 100% success rate for the Targs with hatchlings) then that drop stopped working after Aegon Dragonsbane, because we know that Egg, Aemon and Aerion all got eggs and none of them hatched.

As for the lack of dragons attacking Targaryens, we do get riderless dragons and dragonless Targaryens. They do seem reluctant to begin with and the dragons don't seem particularly inclined to attack humans as long as their space is respected. The Targaryens of tPatQ era seemed quite reluctant to try it to begin with. If they were more confident of their dragon blood, why didn't they invite cousins who didn't have dragons or other Velaryons but turned to dragonseeds?

[Ran]

Oh, that. No, I didn't mean the .... je ne sais quois of dragonlord genes are what make dragon eggs hatch. I mean, I assume the failure of those later eggs relates to the general degradation of the dragon gene pool following the destruction of the Dance, and whatever else was going on (Dragonpit, the falling off of magic, etc.)

I think they invited all sorts of people, and we don't get the names of all the people who tried and failed. But just because you had Targaryen blood somewhere didn't mean you were guaranteed a dragon, and these old dragons were liable to burn or eat you if they rejected you -- I assume many people just prudently decided that they'd rather not risk it. After all, what was a dragon going to get them, anyway, except a front row seat into the nastiest civil war the Seven Kingdoms had ever seen... ?

[The Sleeper]

One could assume that there would have been somebody ambitious enough to have tried well in advance of the Dance. It would have meant greater prestige and status and moving them close to positions of authority.

Mind you, what applies to tPatQ Targaryens and their dragons does not necessarily apply to Dany. After all in her case we have two big ass magic rituals that led to their birth so we know magic is involved. What bond there is may not be because of her ancestry but it is brand new. The Targaryens of the Dance had lost much of their lore. What they did seem to me in general to have been taming wild and really dangerous animals through basically mundane means but shrouded in myths and superstition. I think that hey were originally bound to their dragons but this had faded through the generations of their exile to Dragonstone and by that time their blood was a help, but not a determining factor and not absolutely essential, as I think Nettels tale tells us. On the other hand I think Dany has remade this bond anew and her dragons recognize her as their mother and perhaps distant relatives of hers as kin. Still it does not seem to be enough to control them.

As for their dreams. Their fates and fortunes are tied up with dragons and they see themselves as dragons. That is why they dream about them. I am inclined to think that visions and prophecies in ASoIaF, more then anything reveal the recipients own proclivities.

[Ran]

But of course, who says people didn't try?

Though I'd guess that prior to the Dance, the Targaryens certainly would not have randomly sought out dragon riders. Why would they? The Targaryens have a monopoly on dragons, there's no reason to go outside of the immediate noble family to get various wild dragons ridden or what have you.

How was Daeron the Drunken's fate and fortune bound up with dragons? Or Daemon II?

Pretty sure Daeron didn't see himself as a dragon, for that matter -- didn't seem the grandiose sort.

[The Sleeper]

Then apparently, they failed which doesn't advocate for Targaryen ancestry being conducive to dragon riding.

He saw his uncle as dragon though. And Daemon saw Dunk and Egg and his fate was definitely bound with of them. They were also burdened with their legacy. Daeron saw it as a burden and Daemon wanted to succeed where his father and his brothers failed. He would have thought a dragon would have been his ticket to success.

[Ran]

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as they say.

The Targaryen hatcheries would of course be generally watched and guarded, I suppose. Not much you can do when a hungry cannibal dragon drops down to gorge, but I imagine anyone who dared risk the wrath of god-like Targaryens was probably going to face severe difficulties. And then what does he get for his troubles? He maybe steals away an egg, that may or may not hatch, that may or not lead to a hatchling that will bond with them, which then has to be fed in secret out of fear of what the Targaryens will do when they find out you stole an egg...

Nah, anyone foolish enough, it's no surprise we never hear of them, they'd have been killed off pretty quick.

So then, again, you're xpecting the Targaryens to just allow any old noble to come along and claim an egg... why?

So no, I expect outside of exceptionally rare circumstances, no one but Targaryens and half-Targaryen types got chances at dragons; and those rare exceptions otherwise were probably people who failed or did not long survive their effrontery.

I don't recall Daeron ever envisioning his uncle or anyone else as dragons in conversation with Dunk. I think he mocks Aerion for thinking he's a dragon, but that's about it.

[The Sleeper]

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as they say.

The Targaryen hatcheries would of course be generally watched and guarded, I suppose. Not much you can do when a hungry cannibal dragon drops down to gorge, but I imagine anyone who dared risk the wrath of god-like Targaryens was probably going to face severe difficulties. And then what does he get for his troubles? He maybe steals away an egg, that may or may not hatch, that may or not lead to a hatchling that will bond with them, which then has to be fed in secret out of fear of what the Targaryens will do when they find out you stole an egg...

Nah, anyone foolish enough, it's no surprise we never hear of them, they'd have been killed off pretty quick.

So then, again, you're xpecting the Targaryens to just allow any old noble to come along and claim an egg... why?

So no, I expect outside of exceptionally rare circumstances, no one but Targaryens and half-Targaryen types got chances at dragons; and those rare exceptions otherwise were probably people who failed or did not long survive their effrontery.

I don't recall Daeron ever envisioning his uncle or anyone else as dragons in conversation with Dunk. I think he mocks Aerion for thinking he's a dragon, but that's about it.

I wasn't talking about non-Targaryens, but more distant cousins who were not quite at the top of the food chain. For instance, since Targs and Velaryons had been intermarrying for two hundred years or so. any Velaryon could count on having at least some dragon blood.

As to why they would allow them? For the same reason they did in Dance. To have an extra dragon rider to back someone's ambition. After all people generally tend to exploit all assets they could get, unless they don't believe they can get them.

In any case, the riderless dragons points to the notion that they well aware to the danger involved and that their blood was not a guarantee of success and more they were not confident enough of it to lower the risk to acceptable levels.

[Ran]

Yeah, but the Targaryens weren't all that ambitious on Dragonstone? And after that, where did they run into a situation where they needed more dragons? Save the Dance. No reason to open the doors prior to this.

[The Sleeper]

The situation on Dragonstone seemed to be a bit different. I believe there were five dragons originally and four of them but Balerion died and then Vhagar and Meraxes were born? So there was not an issue as there was no overabundance of dragons. As for later I can think of three conflicts of the top of my head: Maegor against his cousins, Maegor against the Fatih and the Dance itself appears a culmination of a succession crisis that had originated with Jaehaerys. Then of course there was always Dorne, which remained as a thorn in their side. There more dragons to cover more ground sounds like they would have been really useful and prospective dragon riders could look forward to lands, castles and glory to be earned.

[Lord Joker]

The situation on Dragonstone seemed to be a bit different. I believe there were five dragons originally and four of them but Balerion died and then Vhagar and Meraxes were born? So there was not an issue as there was no overabundance of dragons. As for later I can think of three conflicts of the top of my head: Maegor against his cousins, Maegor against the Fatih and the Dance itself appears a culmination of a succession crisis that had originated with Jaehaerys. Then of course there was always Dorne, which remained as a thorn in their side. There more dragons to cover more ground sounds like they would have been really useful and prospective dragon riders could look forward to lands, castles and glory to be earned.

IIRC, Maegor was against his nephews.

Or am i thinking of someone else?

[Ran]

Yeah... Maegor was gonna give people dragons.

Heh.

The Dance, uh, saw the dragonseeds...

And Dorne wasn't really a "thorn"... and, suffice it to say, dragons had proved quite useless there.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

a little bit late to the party...

I agree with butterbumps!, I think Rhaego's life force was swapped with the eggs. The eggs were fossils, Rhaegor was a baby in his mother's womb, then some blood magic happened and shazam, the eggs were warm and alive, Rhaego borned as fossilised and dragon-like.

Dragon-like babies or "mutated babies" may be the consequences of dragonbinding? They don't pay blood or anything for dragonbinding, kinda like how skinchangers don't pay for their abilities, but they may lose their humanity and become beasts, dragonriders don't pay for binding but they may have deformed babies? Magic :dunno: