Why Targaryens have actual dragon blood.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

But Valyrians found dragons, they discovered them, that wouldn't give them magical powers right? First Men's warging and greensight can be explained by their intermarriages with Children of the Forest but Valyrians discovered dragons and tamed them with magic and probably providing sheep.The only explanation that I can come with is that Valyrians somehow magically bonded with dragons and that's how they got their dragon dreams and deformed babies.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Personally I still think that is quite a leap. Seeing an 11 by 17 drawing is not even close to seeing a 50 ft live dragon standing in front of you IMO.

People dream a lot of things, they have never seen in live action, in their dreams. Additionally, we do not know, what the dragons in their dreams looked like. If Daeron was able to describe a real dragon he had only seen on paper in miniscule detail (including some things, that were not shown in the drawing), then I would call that impressive. A person generally dreaming about elephants, after she has seen some on paper is quite the different matter.

[butterbumps!]

But Valyrians found dragons, they discovered them, that wouldn't give them magical powers right? First Men's warging and greensight can be explained by their intermarriages with Children of the Forest but Valyrians discovered dragons and tamed them with magic and probably providing sheep.The only explanation that I can come with is that Valyrians somehow magically bonded with dragons and that's how they got their dragon dreams and deformed babies.

Yea, the CotF's being relatively humanoid opens the door for intermarriage. But given how we see people tapping into magic via sacrificed blood, I'm more inclined toward the "first sacrifice" hypothesis where everyone who's able to perform magic or has a magic gene originally gained that ability through blood rites. If there's any principle linking all of the magics, I think this would be it-- blood for fire, blood for ice, blood for trees, etc. I think it all comes down to bloodmagic.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yea, the CotF's being relatively humanoid opens the door for intermarriage. But given how we see people tapping into magic via sacrificed blood, I'm more inclined toward the "first sacrifice" hypothesis where everyone who's able to perform magic or has a magic gene originally gained that ability through blood rites. If there's any principle linking all of the magics, I think this would be it-- blood for fire, blood for ice, blood for trees, etc. I think it all comes down to bloodmagic.

I agree. It seems to all stem from ancient blood magics. My theory is that Dany hatched her eggs in the same way the ancient Valyrians did to initially bond the dragons to the Targ dragonlord family, forming a bond during the hatching with a blood sacrifice and the presence of a dragonlord.

[butterbumps!]

I agree. It seems to all stem from ancient blood magics. My theory is that Dany hatched her eggs in the same way the ancient Valyrians did to initially bond the dragons to the Targ dragonlord family, forming a bond during the hatching with a blood sacrifice and the presence of a dragonlord.

Yea, that's what I posited, and why I'm a proponent of the idea that the Azor Ahai myth is a dragon making recipe-- if there's any truth to it, I think it might depict how Valyrians harnessed dragons in the first place. It's remarkably similar to Dany's dragon production.

Where I think magic genetics plays in is the fact that Dany's dreams showed her more or less what to do-- something happens during that dream where Rhaego's heart bursts, and those dreams are part of what she's basing her leap of faith on.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

People dream a lot of things, they have never seen in live action, in their dreams. Additionally, we do not know, what the dragons in their dreams looked like. If Daeron was able to describe a real dragon he had only seen on paper in miniscule detail (including some things, that were not shown in the drawing), then I would call that impressive. A person generally dreaming about elephants, after she has seen some on paper is quite the different matter.

He does describe a real dragon. I cant rfind the quote right now, but IIRC it is in detail. Anyway I just agree with Ran that it is spectacular for these Targs to have dreams like that when they have never seen a dragon.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yea, that's what I posited, and why I'm a proponent of the idea that the Azor Ahai myth is a dragon making recipe-- if there's any truth to it, I think it might depict how Valyrians harnessed dragons in the first place. It's remarkably similar to Dany's dragon production.

Where I think magic genetics plays in is the fact that Dany's dreams showed her more or less what to do-- something happens during that dream where Rhaego's heart bursts, and those dreams are part of what she's basing her leap of faith on.

Cool, yeah I agree her dreams showed her what to do, but it is also a knowledge that lives in her dragonlord blood to some extent. When she places the eggs on the brazier initially, before the Pyre. The POV is like; "Dany couldnt say why, she just inherently knew to do it." (paraphrasing)

And her hatching the eggs in that dragonlord 'ritual' way is why I also think that she started a new line of dragons which now have nothing to do with the ancient Valyrian/Targ line of drgaons which are all extinct now.

I think her 3 dragons are the beginning of the line, which l think are all now bonded to her blood and her closest family members. So now people dont need just 'any' Targ blood to ride, they have to share blood with Dany specifically. she is literally 'the mother of dragons' now

[Mrs_Darcy]

Cool, yeah I agree her dreams showed her what to do, but it is also a knowledge that lives in her dragonlord blood to some extent. When she places the eggs on the brazier initially, before the Pyre. The POV is like; "Dany couldnt say why, she just inherently knew to do it." (paraphrasing)

And her hatching the eggs in that dragonlord 'ritual' way is why I also think that she started a new line of dragons which now have nothing to do with the ancient Valyrian/Targ line of drgaons which are all extinct now.

I think her 3 dragons are the beginning of the line, which l think are all now bonded to her blood and her closest family members. So now people dont need just 'any' Targ blood to ride, they have to share blood with Dany specifically. she is literally 'the mother of dragons' now

There were some Targaryen ancestors of Dany (even quite recently), who had this feeling, but where nothing happened (apart from them burning to death).

-Aerion Brightflame thought he would hatch a dragon by drinking wildfire and he burned to death (there was no dragon afterwards)

-Aegon the Unlikely and his sons thought, they could hatch dragon eggs and they burned at the tragedy of Summerhall (there were no dragons, either)

-Aerys thought he would hatch a dragon by burning down KL, but I somehow doubt that it would bring the dragons back had he succeeded

[Mrs_Darcy]

I agree. It seems to all stem from ancient blood magics. My theory is that Dany hatched her eggs in the same way the ancient Valyrians did to initially bond the dragons to the Targ dragonlord family, forming a bond during the hatching with a blood sacrifice and the presence of a dragonlord.

But how bonded are the dragons to Dany? To me, it seems more like the dragons being used to Dany's presence due to her being the first face they saw, than her having any sort of magical connection like for instance the Starks have with their direwolves.

Dany has a lot of POVs in ACOK, ASOS and ADWD, but I cannot remember even one instance, in which she feels the sensations the dragons experience (sight, smell, feel etc. ) or shows any other sign of a "magical bond".

-the only command of Dany the dragons recognize is "dracarys", but they also breathe fire, when Jorah or the Unsullied say the wordl

-Dany can't keep the dragons from eating children, so she has them locked up (and the Unsullied are doing this for her, some of them dying in the process)

-In the pit she controls Drogon with a whip, which is not equivalent to the way Bran made Summer protect Jon Snow

-Even though Rhaegal and Viserion are freed through Quentyn shortly after she flies off on Drogon, they do not fly to Dany preferring to stay in Meereen

-Drogon lets her ride on him on the Dothraki sea, but Dany has no way to influence where he flies

[Suzanna Stormborn]

There were some Targaryen ancestors of Dany (even quite recently), who had this feeling, but where nothing happened (apart from them burning to death).

-Aerion Brightflame thought he would hatch a dragon by drinking wildfire and he burned to death (there was no dragon afterwards)

-Aegon the Unlikely and his sons thought, they could hatch dragon eggs and they burned at the tragedy of Summerhall (there were no dragons, either)

-Aerys thought he would hatch a dragon by burning down KL, but I somehow doubt that it would bring the dragons back had he succeeded

Right, it is just like Ran said. Not only do you have to be a Targaryen, but you have to have that extra something special within the already magical family. Not every stark can warg a direwolf, not every Targ can bond/ride/hatch dragons.

[MoIaF]

But how bonded are the dragons to Dany? To me, it seems more like the dragons being used to Dany's presence due to her being the first face they saw, than her having any sort of magical connection like for instance the Starks have with their direwolves.

Dany has a lot of POVs in ACOK, ASOS and ADWD, but I cannot remember even one instance, in which she feels the sensations the dragons experience (sight, smell, feel etc. ) or shows any other sign of a "magical bond".

-the only command of Dany the dragons recognize is "dracarys", but they also breathe fire, when Jorah or the Unsullied say the wordl

-Dany can't keep the dragons from eating children, so she has them locked up (and the Unsullied are doing this for her, some of them dying in the process)

-In the pit she controls Drogon with a whip, which is not equivalent to the way Bran made Summer protect Jon Snow

-Even though Rhaegal and Viserion are freed through Quentyn shortly after she flies off on Drogon, they do not fly to Dany preferring to stay in Meereen

-Drogon lets her ride on him on the Dothraki sea, but Dany has no way to influence where he flies

There is a magical connection, at least with Drogon.

GRRM:

Q: What can you tell us about a warg dragon rider?

A: There is no history/precedent for someone warging a dragon. There is a rich history of the mythical bond between dragon and rider. There have been instances of dragons responding to their riders even from very far away (hmm) which shows it is a true and very strong bond. We will learn more about this. Keep reading (we hear keep writing from the back of the room).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

But how bonded are the dragons to Dany? To me, it seems more like the dragons being used to Dany's presence due to her being the first face they saw, than her having any sort of magical connection like for instance the Starks have with their direwolves.

Dany has a lot of POVs in ACOK, ASOS and ADWD, but I cannot remember even one instance, in which she feels the sensations the dragons experience (sight, smell, feel etc. ) or shows any other sign of a "magical bond".

-the only command of Dany the dragons recognize is "dracarys", but they also breathe fire, when Jorah or the Unsullied say the wordl

-Dany can't keep the dragons from eating children, so she has them locked up (and the Unsullied are doing this for her, some of them dying in the process)

-In the pit she controls Drogon with a whip, which is not equivalent to the way Bran made Summer protect Jon Snow

-Even though Rhaegal and Viserion are freed through Quentyn shortly after she flies off on Drogon, they do not fly to Dany preferring to stay in Meereen

-Drogon lets her ride on him on the Dothraki sea, but Dany has no way to influence where he flies

There are many examples.

When Dany has an orgasm, Drogon screams with her. When they are in THOTU Drogon sees Dany is in danger and saves her.

When Dany gets angry the dragons do as well on several occasions.

When she needs Drogon in the last DwD chapter, he comes to her.

She has a dream of him full-grown cleansing her with his fire well before he is ever hatched.

She hears his 'dragon song'

When she is tricking the masters in Astapor, Drogon is calm as if he is in on the plan.

IN PATQ there are many examples of the dragon bond as well. Sunfyre comes back to his master int he end. What's her name who killed herself Helena?? , it says her dragon roared extremely loud when she died.

That's just off the top of my head, there are several more.

And the wonderful quote provided by MOIAF above this post.

And yes I agre the bond between rider and dragon is not the same as the bond between stark and direwolf. They are different connections to be sure. Different magic, Ice and Fire.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Right, it is just like Ran said. Not only do you have to be a Targaryen, but you have to have that extra something special within the already magical family. Not every stark can warg a direwolf, not every Targ can bond/ride/hatch dragons.

The problem for Dany being the responsible ingredient for the dragon hatching is that she only went into the flames, once the dragons had already started hatching (she mentions, that the shell of the eggs had cracked before she went into the flames). We see the funeral process and there is no sign, that she cast some spells, did some magical rituals before the dragons hatched, so her only contribution would be standing close to the funeral pyre.

In contrast to this, MMD was casting some kind of spell and had proven before, that she was capable of magic.

[MoIaF]

The problem for Dany being the responsible ingredient for the dragon hatching is that she only went into the flames, once the dragons had already started hatching (she mentions, that the shell of the eggs had cracked before she went into the flames). We see the funeral process and there is no sign, that she cast some spells, did some magical rituals before the dragons hatched, so her only contribution would be standing close to the funeral pyre.

In contrast to this, MMD was casting some kind of spell and had proven before, that she was capable of magic.

GRRM has stated that it was Dany who hatched the eggs. Also, Rhaegal and Viserion did start to hatch before Dany stepped into the pyre, however, Drogon did not hatch until AFTER Dany stepped into the pyre.

[butterbumps!]

Right, it is just like Ran said. Not only do you have to be a Targaryen, but you have to have that extra something special within the already magical family. Not every stark can warg a direwolf, not every Targ can bond/ride/hatch dragons.

I'm not certain it works that way. Dany's dragon dreams (which are a Valyrian/ Targ trait) encouraged her to perform the ritual, but if another person, without Valyrian blood, figured out the formula for bringing dragons back, would it have failed?

I think there's a very basic question at stake in all this: were certain people inherently born with magical blood that enables them to tap into magic, or does magic blood happen once a person taps into magic via bloodmagic that then conditions them and their family lines?

If this comes down to bloodmagic-- that is, if any ordinary human willing to pay the blood price in exchange for ability is what originated human magical ability-- then it follows that anyone could conceivably bond with a dragon, become a seer, build with ice provided they perform the necessary ritual. It would make it easier for some people born with the mutated gene to gain the power probably, but it wouldn't preclude others from tapping into magic from scratch ostensibly.

[MoIaF]

GRRM quote:

The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules. Nor precise words and series of passes that you forget when you have done them and have to learn again."

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Those ideas are completely wrong, I said so the first time I heard them, and now I find out I was right :)

Point out the sections where he confirms your suspicion rather than stating an opinion that you agree with. I don't think anyone denies that Targaryens have prophetic dreams. That is how they survived the doom and came to live on Dragonstone.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Point out the sections where he confirms your suspicion rather than stating an opinion that you agree with. I don't think anyone denies that Targaryens have prophetic dreams. That is how they survived the doom and came to live on Dragonstone.

What? My post already pointed out ideas that are now proven wrong. He has a whole post about How the Targ dragon stables were not under guard and other people could have tried to ride if they wanted. I agree.

I never said anything about the prophetic dreams.....But have many times been called out if I use the word 'special' when talking about Targaryens. there is a long standing joke that every time someone says that, a puppy dies, or something, since it is untrue. But in fact, it is true and the whole puppy joke is in the wrong.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'm not certain it works that way. Dany's dragon dreams (which are a Valyrian/ Targ trait) encouraged her to perform the ritual, but if another person, without Valyrian blood, figured out the formula for bringing dragons back, would it have failed?

I think there's a very basic question at stake in all this: were certain people inherently born with magical blood that enables them to tap into magic, or does magic blood happen once a person taps into magic via bloodmagic that then conditions them and their family lines?

If this comes down to bloodmagic-- that is, if any ordinary human willing to pay the blood price in exchange for ability is what originated human magical ability-- then it follows that anyone could conceivably bond with a dragon, become a seer, build with ice provided they perform the necessary ritual. It would make it easier for some people born with the mutated gene to gain the power probably, but it wouldn't preclude others from tapping into magic from scratch ostensibly.

Well I think that certain families have magic from the beginning. For instance, Valyria was a continent with Dragons, yet there are only 40 dragonlord families, why is that? why didnt every Valyrian family have it's own dragon? IMO only those 40 families had 'the right stuff' required to preform that initial ritual bond out of all of Valyria. Which is also why Dany was able to recreate it, she had the right family genes and 'that extra something special' to do it.

[butterbumps!]

GRRM quote:

The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules. Nor precise words and series of passes that you forget when you have done them and have to learn again."

I probably shouldn't use the word "formula" because that's too specific for what Martin's going for.

Well I think that certain families have magic from the beginning. For instance, Valyria was a continent with Dragons, yet there are only 40 dragonlord families, why is that? why didnt every Valyrian family have it's own dragon? IMO only those 40 families had 'the right stuff' required to preform that initial ritual bond out of all of Valyria. Which is also why Dany was able to recreate it, she had the right family genes and 'that extra something special' to do it.

This is the heart of what really concerns me about the inherent magic debate: On the more clearly human side of the story-- the game of thrones-- we're being sent a message that there's an interplay of blood and the person that makes the man. Blood isn't deterministic.

It seems odd to me, then, and more than a little problematic, if certain groups of people truly were given special blood by the gods. I don't mean the way it was Dany who hatched the eggs or the Starks who can warg, but in terms of there being "chosen" lines from the dawn of men who are inherently superior to the rest. This idea seems in contradiction to the rest of what Martin's stating in terms of power residing in men's beliefs and so forth.

It seems much more thematically aligned if all human control of magic stems with something designed by man, rather than some sort of divine blessing.

Valyrians used to be a people similar to the Lhazarene, overlorded by the Old Ghiscari, if history can be believed. Then, one day, they turned and conquered the Ghiscari; dragons were cited as the tools used for this purpose. Something happened between Valyrians being backwoods animal herders and overthrowing Ghiscari with dragons. One might argue logically that it was specifically the ability for humans to figure out how to harness dragons that made this difference. The question is whether all of a sudden, god gave those people the dragons by giving them special blood or if they did something that then enabled them to hatch or control dragons.