R+L=J v.84

[Ellfoy]

i believe bran will tell jon through dreams ...and others will know by many factors such as howland reed and the thing kept hidden in crypts

after reading the ned chapters about the promise to lyanna and vents of TOJ and bran chapter after ned died where ned wants to tell something to jon in the crypts made me believe

to confirm that i tried to google if there is any theories to confirm mine ...at first all i got was R+L=J ...i didnt know wat it was then only understood the meaning of it and became happy that people believe in wat i believe

Congratulations I guess. Well, the chapter which maked it so obvious to me (I already know...) was the one when Ned goes to the brothel and meet Robert's bastard, then thinks of Rhaegar, Rhaegar's son, Lyanna and the promise, then Jon in two pages or so.

[robb stark of the north]

it isn't necessary that Bran will tell it to Jon

Howland Reed also knows.

[jon rhaegar stark]

Congratulations I guess. Well, the chapter which maked it so obvious to me (I already know...) was the one when Ned goes to the brothel and meet Robert's bastard, then thinks of Rhaegar, Rhaegar's son, Lyanna and the promise, then Jon in two pages or so.

yes that moment too

i just watched once again the episode where jon and sam talk in the season 1 ...kudos to the guy who saw that and its very much enough to convince if there is still any non believers

[WhoIsJonSnow]

For me, the biggest proof of Jon's parentage is more than the odd promise Ned made Lyanna or even the 3 members of the Kingsguard watching over a potential hostage, its the analysis of Ned's unswerving loyalty and sense of right and wrong that Jon mirrors as a member of the Night's watch. I'm also convinced by Melisandre's false belief in Stannis and the visions of Jon Snow in her fires, shouldn't the prophesied AA have fire in his blood to combat the ice in the Others?

I also think the big reveal for Jon will happen whilst he's inside Ghosts mind, maybe following the three-eyed raven / Summer to Bran and Bloodraven and having Bloodraven recognise his Targaryen lineage. With Westeros in ruins and open to the Others, it'd be interesting to see if Daenarys arrives at the Wall when she makes it across the sea

[LadyLiz]

For me, the biggest proof of Jon's parentage is more than the odd promise Ned made Lyanna or even the 3 members of the Kingsguard watching over a potential hostage, its the analysis of Ned's unswerving loyalty and sense of right and wrong that Jon mirrors as a member of the Night's watch. I'm also convinced by Melisandre's false belief in Stannis and the visions of Jon Snow in her fires, shouldn't the prophesied AA have fire in his blood to combat the ice in the Others?

I also think the big reveal for Jon will happen whilst he's inside Ghosts mind, maybe following the three-eyed raven / Summer to Bran and Bloodraven and having Bloodraven recognise his Targaryen lineage. With Westeros in ruins and open to the Others, it'd be interesting to see if Daenarys arrives at the Wall when she makes it across the sea

I agree that Jon's presence in Melisandre's visions are telling but for the sake of argument Stannis actually does have some Targaryen blood. Not as much as Jon would have but he does have Targaryen ancestors iirc.

[sj4iy]

I never put the marriage thing together myself until a long time later after even re-reads of all the books. I always got that was most likely the secret Lyanna asked Ned to keep for her.

I knew about the R+L=J before I started reading the books (my husband had already read them and spoiled some things for me), but I did have a eureka moment when reading the ToJ scene that made me think "Hot damn, Jon is the king!"

[BearQueen87]

it isn't necessary that Bran will tell it to Jon

Howland Reed also knows.

I don't think Bran will tell Jon, nor Sam. But they will arrive at the conclusion that R+L = J independently and before Jon learns. I do think Howland Reed will play a part, though as Apple Martini (I think) pointed out in our last thread that's very classic mythic hero: Arthur, Uther, ect. And I think GRRM might avoid that. Howland Reed might give Jon a nudge in the right direction, but actually sititng him down and saying "Jon I will now explain your heritage to you, because you are the once and future king" ....not so much.

I agree that Jon's presence in Melisandre's visions are telling but for the sake of argument Stannis actually does have some Targaryen blood. Not as much as Jon would have but he does have Targaryen ancestors iirc.

I believe Stannis, Robert, and Renly are all 1/4 Targ.

[Ygrain]

Can we start a "How did you figure it out R+L=J ?" tour ?

I watched the first two seasons before reading the books and I get spoiled Jon Snow 's parentage on the internet so I would never know if I could have figured it out on my own. It appeared really obvious when I read the books (especially in Ned's Pov), I don't think I could ever accept another explanation now.

Well I'm really curious to know how you figured R+L=J out. If I recall correctly, for Ygrain or MtnLion (sorry don't remember which one) it was in a Jaime Chapter about Kingsguard duty.

Not me :-)

I must admit I never figured out the whole marriage thing and learned only when I joined the forums, and it was one big facepalming moment because everything just fit in with a click! and I felt very stupid for not following the whole "why the KG were at ToJ" far enough.

As for R+L itself, the first reading of AGOT left me rather puzzled - Ned's silence about Jon's mother didn't maky any sense, especially in the light of telling Robert "Wylla", the contradicting versions of rape and love apparently couldn't be right both, and Ned's thought about Rhaegar not frequenting brothels didn't make any sense about his sister's rapist, either. So I went on a re-read, and somewhere along the way, things started to make sense for Ned's silence: he doesn't want to lie, but cannot tell the truth, and the only time we see him lie is for the sake of his family. He never thinks of any woman who might be Jon's mother, so what if he is lying about being Jon's father, for the sake of someone from the family? There was not much reason to provide a cover-up for Brandon or Benjen as a nobleman's bastard is no big deal, but Lyanna... And then I hit the Dany chapter with the explanation of "bloody bed" and realized that Lyanna died in childbirth, and the only plausible candidate for the father is Rhaegar.

[Alia Atreides]

I knew about the R+L=J before I started reading the books (my husband had already read them and spoiled some things for me), but I did have a eureka moment when reading the ToJ scene that made me think "Hot damn, Jon is the king!"

:)

[Ygrain]

I don't think Bran will tell Jon, nor Sam. But they will arrive at the conclusion that R+L = J independently and before Jon learns. I do think Howland Reed will play a part, though as Apple Martini (I think) pointed out in our last thread that's very classic mythic hero: Arthur, Uther, ect. And I think GRRM might avoid that. Howland Reed might give Jon a nudge in the right direction, but actually sititng him down and saying "Jon I will now explain your heritage to you, because you are the once and future king" ....not so much.

I sincerely hope this will never happen.

I've been thinking, everyone is so keen on meeting HR ever since book 1... so perhaps, just perhaps, GRRM will pull a surprise and reveal the secret through someone/something entirely else. I think there might be a multiple reveal of the various elements of the R+L relationship - through Bran, through HR, and perhaps through the Daynes/Wylla. - Was it in the last thread that someone linked GRRM saying that something important in Dany's arc will happen at Starfall?

[LadyLiz]

I've been thinking, everyone is so keen on meeting HR ever since book 1... so perhaps, just perhaps, GRRM will pull a surprise and reveal the secret through someone/something entirely else. I think there might be a multiple reveal of the various elements of the R+L relationship - through Bran, through HR, and perhaps through the Daynes/Wylla. - Was it in the last thread that someone linked GRRM saying that something important in Dany's arc will happen at Starfall?

That could certainly happen although I believe GRRM confirmed that we will see Howland Reed at some point in the future so that would be a really clear and direct way to solve the issue of parentage.

[Ellfoy]

Not me :-)

I must admit I never figured out the whole marriage thing and learned only when I joined the forums, and it was one big facepalming moment because everything just fit in with a click! and I felt very stupid for not following the whole "why the KG were at ToJ" far enough.

As for R+L itself, the first reading of AGOT left me rather puzzled - Ned's silence about Jon's mother didn't maky any sense, especially in the light of telling Robert "Wylla", the contradicting versions of rape and love apparently couldn't be right both, and Ned's thought about Rhaegar not frequenting brothels didn't make any sense about his sister's rapist, either. So I went on a re-read, and somewhere along the way, things started to make sense for Ned's silence: he doesn't want to lie, but cannot tell the truth, and the only time we see him lie is for the sake of his family. He never thinks of any woman who might be Jon's mother, so what if he is lying about being Jon's father, for the sake of someone from the family? There was not much reason to provide a cover-up for Brandon or Benjen as a nobleman's bastard is no big deal, but Lyanna... And then I hit the Dany chapter with the explanation of "bloody bed" and realized that Lyanna died in childbirth, and the only plausible candidate for the father is Rhaegar.

So, you have found out that Jon was not Ned's before understanding R+L=J. I know a few people who have experienced more or less the same process. Show-watchers friends who are like "Jon Snow is King Robert's bastard !" because of the "black of hair" think. The funny think is that they have the good mother and I'm just like :bang: . And if you explain to them R+L=J, "meh, Jon doesn't looklike a Targ at all", more :bang:

I had a friend reading aGoT who thought that Jon was benjen's.

It's like plenty of people have the same though witout realising it : "Honorable Eddard Stark can't have a bastard".

[Pigeon Pie]

Well tbh I knew from the internet first, and immediately thought it made sense. I later noticed a few things on my own, like how Ned describes Lyanna's dying bed as a "bed of blood", and later Mirri Maz Durr, while talking about her knowledge of birthing, says she knows the secrets of the "bloody bed".

[Alia of the knife]

I never put the marriage thing together myself until a long time later after even re-reads of all the books. I always got that was most likely the secret Lyanna asked Ned to keep for her.

Agreed.

[Ser Leftwich]

I don't think Bran will tell Jon, nor Sam. But they will arrive at the conclusion that R+L = J independently and before Jon learns. I do think Howland Reed will play a part, though as Apple Martini (I think) pointed out in our last thread that's very classic mythic hero: Arthur, Uther, ect. And I think GRRM might avoid that. Howland Reed might give Jon a nudge in the right direction, but actually sititng him down and saying "Jon I will now explain your heritage to you, because you are the once and future king" ....not so much.

We know Ned was willing to tell Jon something about his parentage, which was not necessarily the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If it was a partial truth, it could be related to the promise.

If Ned and Howland (and possibly Howland and Lyanna) were really so close, Howland would probably honor the specifics of whatever Ned promised to Lyanna.

That way it is not just an info dump from Howland to Jon.

ETA: Howland will only tell Jon part of it, maybe that Lyanna was his mother.

[WhiteOwl18]

As to how I figured out RLJ: the first time I read the books it never even crossed my mind. I actually thought that Robert and Lyanna had this beautiful love story going on and then came the other asshole and ruined everything. I didn't think Jon's mother was important at all, and when Ned said the name Wylla, that was it for me.

The second time I read it, I got stuck on the "her wolf's blood led her to an early grave" thing. Why would Ned blame his sister for being kidnapped and raped? Which led me to the conclusion that maybe she wasn't. I still did not associate her with Jon, though.

On my third read I started wondering why Ned never told Jon who his mother was. And then "I promise". And that's when it clicked. Even then, I thought that Jon was still a bastard. It was only when I came on these forums that the whole picture became clear to me. And, let me tell, I love this. I love the whole story surrounding it and the implications it might have to the story in the future.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Hopefully Howland Reed just sits Jon down and explains his lineage to him in whimsical and straightforward tones.

[FrozenFire3]

Approached the tv series as an unsullied and got Jon's mother after watching the first episode (the crypt scene was narratively blatant imo). At first I guessed Robert was the father and Cersei the reason for hiding Jon's identity :blushing: Got the father on second episode, after Robert&Ned's little on-the-road heart to heart lol THAT was my turning point and I decided I had to read the books. So, yeah, R+L=J was first and foremost what drew me to ASoIaF :)

[Alia Atreides]

Hopefully Howland Reed just sits Jon down and explains his lineage to him in whimsical and straightforward tones.

whimsical ? that is the last attribute I would ever give to the Frey Hunter.... ;)

[Ygrain]

Approached the tv series as an unsullied and got Jon's mother after watching the first episode (the crypt scene was narratively blatant imo). At first I guessed Robert was the father and Cersei the reason for hiding Jon's identity :blushing: Got the father on second episode, after Robert&Ned's little on-the-road heart to heart lol THAT was my turning point and I decided I had to read the books. So, yeah, R+L=J was first and foremost what drew me to ASoIaF :)

Lol, the narrative rules make it almost too obvious, right?