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R+L=J v.84


J. Stargaryen

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Okay, looking at the recent replies, a question from the past resurfaces to my mind, and it might be common knowledge to you guys, but it was never clear to me, so sorry if it's boring and stupid.

Where exactly was Lyanna when the escape happened? Was she in Winterfell? Because Kingslanding - Winterfell - Dornish Marches is as long a trip as you can make in Westeros, so long I imagine the event would be known of and they'd be stopped while still on the road. Was she somewhere near the crown lands? Maybe Riverrun?

Also, how exactly did they interact during the year between the tourney and the escape, since of course they must have, to fall in love or to plan it all? Ravens seem to be the closest answer, but are raven messages alone enough for them to have feelings for each other, and did they really think they were safe? Assumimg Lyanna was in WF, maybe she should have considered that Luwin (or whoever was maester then) would probably think "why is this young girl exchanging messages with a stranger that seem super private" and he would feel it best for her to show them to her father or one of her brothers, in fear she was doing something rash which she was. and not to mention Pycelle who was a Lannister spy and opened the letters. So, ravens are not at all safe unless you 1. Can guarantee your maester win't open them before sending and 2. Can guarantee they won't be shot on their flight and someone will find your letters.

So, answers or speculations please?

I have no idea where Lyanna was. I've seem some speculating that she was near the Isle of Faces, which would help her and Rhaegar marry quickly, at least with the old gods in the manner of the North. That's near Harrnehal, so maybe they waited until Brandon was on his way to Riverrun to marry Cat, far enough out that word wouldn't reach him in time. Then he turns around upon hearing the news and rides to KL to call Rhaegar out.

As to how they communicated...if ravens are out, messages might have come to her from Dayne or Whent, of the KG. Didn't they help Rhaegar "abduct" her? And they are 2 of the 3 KG at the ToJ. Seems like they were part of the whole thing, from start to finish.

My very hasty put together thoughts. Good questions, but I don't have any solid evidence of any of this.

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Gosh, I always had the notion Jon would look like Rhaegar (other than the coloring, I'm talking build and set of features) and it could be recognized on sight by someone who knew the latter, and that's mostly why Ned was nervous because of Robert's visit who happened to be escorted by a crowd of people who met Rhaegar (Jaime and Cersei, Barristan etc) because otherwise Jon looks everything like Ned, via Lyanna. This photo just makes it obvious.

I agree with you. I think there is more to look "Targaryen" than just the hair and the eyes, and that not only applies to Jon but also Aegon. Maybe Valyrians, generally speaking, have a defined and basic set of features like the eyes and the hair (and even the eyes have different tones), but the Targaryens had been marrying other houses (Martell, Hightowers, Arryns) and more set of genes had been added to the gene pool. Notice that Dany and her brothers have all different eye colour: Indigo for Rhaegar, lilac for Viserys and violet for Dany, and the Daynes have also violet eyes.

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Gosh, I always had the notion Jon would look like Rhaegar (other than the coloring, I'm talking build and set of features) and it could be recognized on sight by someone who knew the latter, and that's mostly why Ned was nervous because of Robert's visit who happened to be escorted by a crowd of people who met Rhaegar (Jaime and Cersei, Barristan etc) because otherwise Jon looks everything like Ned, via Lyanna. This photo just makes it obvious.

But he does look like Rhaegar. Its just lost in the subtleties of mannerisms and the elegance in his grace.

He's very different from the more "earthy" Stark males who are perhaps broader and heftier.

There is another image of Lyanna where you see how much he openly resembles her.

(I do think graphic novel Jon is "prettier" than TV Jon, not that I mind 😻, but it doesn't take anything from Kit either).

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How I discovered R+L=J

I watched Season 1 and was hooked. I knew pretty quickly that Jon was important, more so than Robb and Theon. They wouldn't name his mother and kept talking up Neds honor. To me it was clear it wasn't just some wash woman. Unfortunately I then watched season 2...then read books 3-4-5 rather quickly and then found this forum before reading book 1. So I learned on here that it's R+L. If I had read book 1 first and had Neds inner thoughts and dream I likely would have caught it, at least I hope I would have.

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I am totally mindblown over this http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/111803-lyannas-death/?p=5924718:

As Ygrain pointed out this is fantasizing on Dany's part and she had no first hand knowledge of what transpired between Rhaeghar and Lyanna. Now if we want to assume that Dany's 'swordpoint' interpretations of events is correct then we could assume that Rhaegar did threaten violence towards the guards who were with Lyanna although she went willing. This would have had helped in perpetuating the whole kidnapping story and prevented any significant taint on the Starks' reputation.

There's a similar storyline in the Indian epic the Mahabharata in which the princess is betrothed to another and then kidnapped by the hero. The princess is of course in love with the hero and goes willing but it's made to look like a kidnapping. The princess family upon hearing about the kidnapping is ready to go to war with the hero but is prevented by the timely intervention of the princess brother (Krishna) who happens to be the hero's friend and the brains behind the kidnapping plot. Krishna used the kidnapping so that his family's honor is not tainted and the fiance's family wouldn't declare war on them. Well, this is a long-winded way of saying that the whole kidnapping angle could have been a ruse to protect the Starks' reputation but then backfired.

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Yep, I've considered it to be a ruse but not to favour the Starks but to give Rhaegar some time to plot against Aerys while everybody was thinking him to have the time of his life with Lyanna, who was actually willingly participant.

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Transferred here from small questions...

Rhaegar does not chase Lyanna at Harrenhal. There is no big romance thing there and the QoLaB naming is not the huge deal people try to make it out here all the time. It was a shock, a surprise, because people thought they knew boring old dutiful Rhaegar would name his wife and instead he names some almost unknown young northern girl (making her first appearance in the south)...

The QoLaB is Rhaegar's way of acknowledging, respecting and rewarding Lyanna's actions as KotLT - something that can't be done publicly because paranoid Aerys has declared the tKotLT an enemy of the crown and ordered Rhaegar to find him.

So Rhaegar awards Lyanna the crown, everyone is shocked, but we hear no more buzz or gossip about them afterwards. Why? Because obviously there was nothing more to it than that at the time. Probably Rhaegar went straight back to Elia and publicly showed his loyalty and affection to her - he's supposed to be a smart chap after all and is still almost universally popular.

Within a month or two Elia announces her pregnancy and around 9 months or so after Harrenhal Aegon is born. Rhaegar is then seen in Dany's vision apparently happy with his plan for Aegon and noting that there must be one more. But the Maester's annnounce Elia can't provide that one more and then Rhaegar's thoughts stray to that bold, brave, honour-loving northern girl he met at Harrenhal. Hey, isn't she ice to his fire...

So your a, b and c above are just unnecessary. They assume Rhaegar is chasing Lyanna at Harrenhal, but the data we have doesn't support this. There is a clear, sensible, in character, reason for his actions there and none of the expected angst that should be present past the immediate moment if there were more to it than just that instant (note that a widely quoted SSM that says Dorne had some anger over Rhaegar's treatment of Elia refers to much later, well after he had actually been reported as abducting Lyanna).

Your d is possible, but more or less entirely unknown. It seems Elia probably knows of his plan/need for another child. Whether she is privy to the why, and whether she agreed and/or gave her blessing (reluctantly or enthusiastically) is not known at all.

Really, really... great response. I appreciate it.

(as a mathematician/analyst/theorist) I like your logic from a few vantage points: Rhaegar's, Lyanna's, Starks... and anybody privy to the the Howland Reed & KotLT story.

That said - not every person at the tournament is "in" on that story.

And thus, Rhaegar's actions would create anger among some.

An unwise course of action (I believe) when Rhaegar(who is supposed to be "smart", yes?) could have just as well honoured Lyanna in some alternate (& private) manner.

Now... as for the naming of QoLaB, I (personally) think that decision needs to be taken back farther.

Rhaegar's mom, Rhaella, was once named QoLaB by Ser Bonifer Hasty... with whom (it is suggested) she was infatuated with... pre-Aerys.

And - I would have to believe that during some point in his childhood, Rhaella passed this story down to Rhaegar.

One's interpretation of an event (and I'm being mathematical here) is oft a product of his upbringing... stories, education... parenting.

So... if mom received the QoLaB from a man that was infatuated with her...

(I think)

... a better suggestion would be that the son would give the QoLaB to a woman with whom he was infatuated.

Two ways to see this coin.

(and you are welcome to your opinion... as am I to mine... but I do believe a reader should consider the strength of WHY did GRRM include this information... that Rhaegar's mom was once QoLaB from some man she may have loved.)

Here, your opinion is that Rhaegar sought out Lyanna to fulfill his prophecy. (and not for love?)

And my opinion is that Rhaegar sought out Lyanna because he loved her... from the very moment of her actions at the Tournament of Harrenhall.

Considering that GRRM ties Rhaegar (via birth on day of Tragedy at Summerhall) to Aegon V (via death at Tragedy at Summerhall) - I believe that Rhaegar was a man "of love" and that he chased Lyanna "for love" in the same way he held honourable to what Aegon V wished for himself... and for his own children.

(and... as an extension: My question in "small questions" is actually not made with respect to whether Rhaegar + Lyanna created Jon Snow. I'm completely on board with this theory. However... *crackpot as it may seem*, I was only trying to gather evidence that "Aegon (VI)" is not the spawn of Rhaegar/Elia but rather that Rhaenys & Aegon VI are both spawn of Oberyn/Elia. I, personally, don't think either of those kids is from Rhaegar. And I believe GRRM gives us enough with: i) Elia/Oberyn being very close, ii) Their trip to Lannisport to offer to cross-marry the twin/incestuous Lannisters [how convenient], and iii) That Joanna/Princess of Dorner are paired together by GRRM as lady-in-waiting. *end crackpot theory.... but this is why I didn't start my post in R+L=J.)

Again - thanks for the response though.

I did like it... just not sound enough, IMO.

ASOIAF is a love story, IMO.

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Yep, I've considered it to be a ruse but not to favour the Starks but to give Rhaegar some time to plot against Aerys while everybody was thinking him to have the time of his life with Lyanna, who was actually willingly participant.

There could have been more than one motive, but I cannot get rid of the feeling that we might have here that Robb-Jeyne parallel: he put the girl's honour above his own.

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There could have been more than one motive, but I cannot get rid of the feeling that we might have here that Robb-Jeyne parallel: he put the girl's honour above his own.

Not only that. The circumstances of Robb and Jeyne might also parallel R+L: it was grief more than anything. While Rhaegar and Lyanna probably liked each other, it could have been mourning over her family and war what brought them together.

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Not only that. The circumstances of Robb and Jeyne might also parallel R+L: it was grief more than anything. While Rhaegar and Lyanna probably liked each other, it could have been mourning over her family and war what brought them together.

Not ruling this out, either :-)

I do think that their relationship started even before, but that Jon might have been conceived while Lyanna was being comforted.

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Ygrain, I've considered it too! Think of it this way: Someome comes to you saying your teenage sister has escaped with an older, married man who comes from a more powerful family than yours. You can tell people the truth, only in such a patriarchal society no one will blame said married man, they'll just call your sister a whore and shame her family (think of the Hightowers and Lynesse). So, what to do? Say said married man has kidnapped and raped her. Of course there's the possibility that Brandon simply didn't believe his well brought up sister would do such a thing and, in denial, thought it was a kidnapping, but the beginning remains the same: Brandon wasn't told that his sister was kidnapped by the Crown prince, but that his sister escaped with the crown prince.

This also explains his weird suicidal trip to the Red Keep: Let's shout it loud and clear that his sister was kidnapped; silence might imply otherwise.

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Ygrain, I've considered it too! Think of it this way: Someome comes to you saying your teenage sister has escaped with an older, married man who comes from a more powerful family than yours. You can tell people the truth, only in such a patriarchal society no one will blame said married man, they'll just call your sister a whore and shame her family (think of the Hightowers and Lynesse). So, what to do? Say said married man has kidnapped and raped her. Of course there's the possibility that Brandon simply didn't believe his well brought up sister would do such a thing and, in denial, thought it was a kidnapping, but the beginning remains the same: Brandon wasn't told that his sister was kidnapped by the Crown prince, but that his sister escaped with the crown prince.

This also explains his weird suicidal trip to the Red Keep: Let's shout it loud and clear that his sister was kidnapped; silence might imply otherwise.

Wow, I think that this is the first time someone suggested that Brandon may have intentionally spread a lie about Lyanna!

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As Ygrain pointed out this is fantasizing on Dany's part and she had no first hand knowledge of what transpired between Rhaeghar and Lyanna. Now if we want to assume that Dany's 'swordpoint' interpretations of events is correct then we could assume that Rhaegar did threaten violence towards the guards who were with Lyanna although she went willing. This would have had helped in perpetuating the whole kidnapping story and prevented any significant taint on the Starks' reputation.

There's a similar storyline in the Indian epic the Mahabharata in which the princess is betrothed to another and then kidnapped by the hero. The princess is of course in love with the hero and goes willing but it's made to look like a kidnapping. The princess family upon hearing about the kidnapping is ready to go to war with the hero but is prevented by the timely intervention of the princess brother (Krishna) who happens to be the hero's friend and the brains behind the kidnapping plot. Krishna used the kidnapping so that his family's honor is not tainted and the fiance's family wouldn't declare war on them. Well, this is a long-winded way of saying that the whole kidnapping angle could have been a ruse to protect the Starks' reputation but then backfired.

Yeah, this is pretty crazy. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it. We hear all about the Lannisters trying to preserve the family name, why wouldn't the Starks want to do the same.

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Really, really... great response. I appreciate it.

(as a mathematician/analyst/theorist) I like your logic from a few vantage points: Rhaegar's, Lyanna's, Starks... and anybody privy to the the Howland Reed & KotLT story.

That said - not every person at the tournament is "in" on that story.

And thus, Rhaegar's actions would create anger among some.

An unwise course of action (I believe) when Rhaegar(who is supposed to be "smart", yes?) could have just as well honoured Lyanna in some alternate (& private) manner.

Now... as for the naming of QoLaB, I (personally) think that decision needs to be taken back farther.

Rhaegar's mom, Rhaella, was once named QoLaB by Ser Bonifer Hasty... with whom (it is suggested) she was infatuated with... pre-Aerys.

And - I would have to believe that during some point in his childhood, Rhaella passed this story down to Rhaegar.

One's interpretation of an event (and I'm being mathematical here) is oft a product of his upbringing... stories, education... parenting.

So... if mom received the QoLaB from a man that was infatuated with her...

(I think)

... a better suggestion would be that the son would give the QoLaB to a woman with whom he was infatuated.

Two ways to see this coin.

(and you are welcome to your opinion... as am I to mine... but I do believe a reader should consider the strength of WHY did GRRM include this information... that Rhaegar's mom was once QoLaB from some man she may have loved.)

Here, your opinion is that Rhaegar sought out Lyanna to fulfill his prophecy. (and not for love?)

And my opinion is that Rhaegar sought out Lyanna because he loved her... from the very moment of her actions at the Tournament of Harrenhall.

Considering that GRRM ties Rhaegar (via birth on day of Tragedy at Summerhall) to Aegon V (via death at Tragedy at Summerhall) - I believe that Rhaegar was a man "of love" and that he chased Lyanna "for love" in the same way he held honourable to what Aegon V wished for himself... and for his own children.

(and... as an extension: My question in "small questions" is actually not made with respect to whether Rhaegar + Lyanna created Jon Snow. I'm completely on board with this theory. However... *crackpot as it may seem*, I was only trying to gather evidence that "Aegon (VI)" is not the spawn of Rhaegar/Elia but rather that Rhaenys & Aegon VI are both spawn of Oberyn/Elia. I, personally, don't think either of those kids is from Rhaegar. And I believe GRRM gives us enough with: i) Elia/Oberyn being very close, ii) Their trip to Lannisport to offer to cross-marry the twin/incestuous Lannisters [how convenient], and iii) That Joanna/Princess of Dorner are paired together by GRRM as lady-in-waiting. *end crackpot theory.... but this is why I didn't start my post in R+L=J.)

Again - thanks for the response though.

I did like it... just not sound enough, IMO.

ASOIAF is a love story, IMO.

Agreed.

Emotions are the unknown variable in "the things we do for love."

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Not ruling this out, either :-)

I do think that their relationship started even before, but that Jon might have been conceived while Lyanna was being comforted.

Awww... their happy accident.

Also, Jon/Ygritte is another parallel. Ygritte is "kidnapped" because Jon is following a bigger plot.

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