How would you rate episode 410?

[Winter Blues]

Oh. And the show is becoming more style over substance. It doesn't even seem real anymore. I thing D&D are overdoing it with the theatrics and it's taking away from what the actors have to offer in telling the story. I could've used more Ramsey and Roose--it was the only storyline that seemed authentic and spurred some emotion in me. I couldn't even muster emotions for Jonjen, or any other character who died this season...

[Into the Weirwood]

I feel like season 1 was the most loyal to the books because there was less to tell and time enough to do it. A major problem in the adaptation process, for me, is the need the show had to diverge from the original story throughout the following seasons because of the lack of time. The unalterable mold of 10 episodes of approximately an hour each, in my opinion, doesn't cover a book that's almost twice as big as the first one (as I believe is the case of ASoS). But as they have budget priorities and stuff like that, it's understandable that they have to cut parts of some stories and change them so they make sense without the missing parts.

[Seneti]

8/10 - one big thing and three minor things that I didn't like, but other than that it was really good.

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

It actually surprises me that people who compare it to the books are as criticized as they are, mostly because it feels like it's coming from show fans who can't take any criticism. The show is not perfect, nor are the books, so criticism shouldn't be treated like trolling.

I can't not compare it to the books. In the title credits it says "based on A Song of Ice and Fire," not "loosely inspired by." I judge this show as an adaption, not as a standalone piece of work. Mostly because very few of the ideas are original. D&D are bringing already established stories and characters to a visual media. I judge how well they can do that, and since season two they have shown they are not doing this well. Even in season one they chose less than ideal directions. this is rather frustrating because if it wasn't for the characters, the books might not be quite as renowned. Case in point, Catelyn is reduced to concerned mother rather than the inner complexities of her character that many book readers would know.

You can't separate the books from the show if you're a book reader. It's fair criticism to say D&D are not doing well in that regard. They are not adapting well. yes, changes have to be made, but the changes they make more often than not are superfluous and contradictory to the books (Cersei/Tywin's last chat, Tywin knowing about the dragons, Tywin and the Iron Bank [[boy, they've really f**ked up with Tywin completely]] JeyneLisa Westergyr)

The books matter.

Agreed. Look when I watched The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo I was totally fine with some of the changes made to the storyline...in fact the changes improved the story immensely but also because I thought the movie really showed the core of Lisbeth Salander. Obviously there are major differences between that book and ASOIAF but the point is that adaptations can do a good job at showing the depth of characters and get the basic storyline down right.

I can't believe how much people love Game of Thrones. The characters are far more shallow on the show and the writing is weak IMO. I've pretty much given up on the show (haven't actively watched it for three years) but every time I check out an episode I am disappointed in how shallow the adaptation is. People shouldn't be bashed for criticizing how the series has been adapted. It is perfectly valid to be critical of the producers for how they have adapted Martin's work.

[makchamp]

8

I really enjoyed this episode. Just one thing

How did Stannis' army magically cross he wall ?

[makchamp]

8

I really enjoyed this episode. Just one thing

How did Stannis' army magically cross he wall ?

[makchamp]

8

I really enjoyed this episode. Just one thing

How did Stannis' army magically cross he wall ?

[Ser Blake]

It pains me to say it, as I'm a huge show supporter, but this was probaly the most dissapointing episode of the entire series for me. I'm saying that it's bad, in fact its quite good, its just that it had the chance to be amazing and it just fell way short. I've never really had a problem with changes but they really are starting to get to me.

What I loved:

Everything at the Wall. Scene with Jon and Mance was phenomenal, Stannis's arrival was great and the scene with Stannis/Jon/Mance was phenomenal as well. I thought the foreshadowing with Jon and Melisandre was very well done. I actually really liked Jon's scene with Tormund too as well as him burning Ygritte. Just really wish we couldve gotten LC Snow...

Arya's final scene with the Hound was freaking perfect. The acting by both Maise and especially Rory was unbelievably good. His breakdown coupled with her coldness made it one of the most emotionally charged scenes in the entire show.

What I didn't love:

The Hound and Brienne fight. Despite the fact that I loved the post fight scenes I thought the fight itself was a pointless change. I actually really liked the fight itself but the lead up to it was just silly to me. What are the chances that these two small groups meet up in the middle of nowhere. Yes the scenerey is gorgeous but logically it doesn't make any sense.

The Bran scenes just felt off to me. The skeltons remdinded me too much of Pirates of the Carribean and the fireball throwing Child of the forrest just felt odd. Idk. Nothing here was really bad, everything just felt off. Although I will admit Bran talking to Bloodraven was actually really well done.

The massive changes to Jaime and Cersei. Having Cersei threaten Tywin with her incest fundamentally changes her character. In Feast her sole goal is trying to be Tywin and now it seems almost as if she will be glad he is dead. I just don't get why you would whitewash her for so long just to have her go crazy at the one character she would never go crazy at. The Jaime changes break my heart. Having sex in the White Tower and throwing the White Book are just completely contrary to his character development. He should be done with Cersei by this point. Now he doesn't even know everybody she's been fucking because...

Why would you change so much in the Tyrion scene? Why? I understand that its impossible to be 100% loyal but these changes are illogical. Cutting the Tysha story completely derails the character development of both Jaime and Tyrion. Since Jaime doesn't tell him the story Tyrion doesn't tell him about Cersei or claim to have killed Joffery. I know its nice seeing them leave on good terms but it loses all of the power and emotion that the book scene had. Its one saddest most tragic moments in the books, one that Peter and Nikolaj would have nailed and yet for some reason it was just cut. Gone without a trace. Also a lot of little changes here have great implications. By not having Varys lead him to Tywins chambers you lose all the subtle hints that Varys wanted Tyrion to kill Tywin. By having Shae pick up a knife you have Tyrion acting in self defense instead of rage. It just loses so much nuance with these small little changes.

Its just sad becasue this episode had a chance to be something truly special. It had a chance to go down in the histroy books as one of the greatest hours of television ever. But ultimately it just didn't. No offer of Winterfell, No Only Cat(shouldve been saved for finale along with the Jon Arryn reveal), No LC Snow, No Tysha, No Stoneheart. Solid. But not greatness like it could've been.

[LordStoneheart]

@Jack's Smirking Revenge, I actually think movies get a little more leeway because they have less time... but there are great feature films based on books in spite of that. And there are terrible ones too.

Game of Thrones has ten hours a year to establish what it needs to. That's a good chunk of time. Unfortunately, I think Tweedle DB and Tweedle David are focusing on establishing what they want to rather than what they should. Otherwise we might have actual characters with depth instead of Ros the Exposition Whore or Pod the Sex God.

[Oberyn2cool4Westeros]

+ Stannis was done right for once

+ Dany getting REKT by the old guy

+ Sandor-Brienne fight

+ UnGregor confirmed

+ Stoneheart didn't show up

+ NW scenes were epic

- Children don't look nearly as cool as they do in the books

- BR was pretty bad

- Jojen's death was shitty

+/- Fireballs

Overall, 9/10

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

8

I really enjoyed this episode. Just one thing

How did Stannis' army magically cross he wall ?

in the books he travels to eastwatch by the sea which is the castle all the way to the east of the wall and is led by their commander beyond wall to flank mance and his army.

Edited June 16, 2014 by TheNorth's1stKnight

[The Drunkard]

8

I really enjoyed this episode. Just one thing

How did Stannis' army magically cross he wall ?

Using boats.

What doesn't make sense is that pincer attack.

Oh, and 7/10. The Dany and Wall scenes were quite good, the rest was fairly average. Jaime and Tyrion shouldn't have been changed.

Edited June 16, 2014 by The Drunkard

[Gregor's Nancy Boy]

Nine. Final Answer.

Bad

• No mention of the Horn of Winter (I guess this means the real one will never be found in future books)
  
• Everyone bringing up Ygritte to Jon Snow
  
• Gregor being in no sort of pain whatsoever (totally messed up Oberyn's revenge after death)
  
• Qyburn making it completely obvious to book readers that Gregor does indeed become Ser Robert the Strong
  
• Emlia Clarke's mediocre acting
  
• The shepherd with the bones not being the same shepherd as before (I think that would have been better...)
  
• Shrinking of Rhaegal and Viserion for catacombs scene
  
• Night's Watch amassing an enormous funeral pyre smack dab in the middle of Castle Black's courtyard
  
• Death of Jojen (again, another character/plot subject revealed to be unimportant to the future of the books)
  
• Underwhelming interior lair of the Three-Eyed Crow (just a bunch of dead roots in a small, confined space)
  
• Underwhelming Three-Eyed Crow (looked and sounded like some run-of-the-mill old man chilling in a tree)
  
• No mention of Tysha! That story had a lot of value/purpose, why cut it from the show?
  
• Shae dying literally 15 seconds after Tyrion begins choking her
  
• No LS reveal. God damn it.
  

Ok. That's it. And truth be told, I don't really give a shit about none of that (at least at this moment in time). It was an obligatory critique. Now...

Good

• Jon's lamentation on his friend...
  

"He was their king. Last of a bloodline that stretches back before the First Men."

"... Grenn came from a farm." LOL yes! I was really disappointed with his death but at least Jon stays true to him post mortem.

• Mance trying to reason with Jon. He's so persuasive you almost want Jon to accept.
  
• STANNIS THE MANNIS RIDING IN LIKE HE WAS THE GOD DAMN KING OF ROHAN ON PLANET HOTH
  
• ^ whole sequence was pretty sick
  
• ... ^ seriously, that shit was awesome
  
• Cersei rubbing the fact she fucks Jaime in Tywin's face. Seeing him actually in shock for once was pleasantly disheveling.
  
• Jaime letting himself be seduced by Cersei despite all the evil shit she's doing. After everything, he's still just a man.
  
• Jon's crying face. Let me hug you, Kit.
  
• Exterior view of the Three-Eyed Crow's lair. Beautiful and true to the book's description.
  
• The entire skeleton attack sequence. The CGI on them was so well done. They looked incredibly creepy.
  
• Meera kicking ass not because the director wanted her to look cool but because she was desperate to save her brother.
  
• Jojen's disturbing death by dismembered skeleton hand. Well done even though I know he's an irrelevant character now...
  
• The Children of the Forest being actual children with super cool saiyan powers.
  
• Brienne's encounter with the Hound. They both want what's best for Arya. So hard to watch. Great deviation on D&D's part for once.
  
• ^ the fight was ridiculously good. Probably the best I've seen on the show thus far in all honesty.
  
• The Hound's last words to Arya. Him revealing everything to her in taunts and evoking nothing in her but looks of pity.
  
• Pod not being killed by Arya. That rumor was really bothering me.
  
• Jaime's goodbye to Tyrion. It wasn't so pleasant in the books and I just prefer this instead.
  
• Tyrion killing Shae. I've never seen Peter Dinklage give a better performance. That was flawless. Also glad that scene wasn't cut.
  
• Tywin trying to coax Tyrion into surrendering by telling him lies. You wanted to believe him just as much as Tyrion did...
  
• ^ Peter Dinklage killed that scene, by the way.
  
• The uplifting ending. Arya is finally going to Braavos, home to her beloved trainer, the late Syrio Forel.
  

I haven't been reading much of other people's posts yet but I really don't understand some of the 1/10 criticisms I've seen. I thought it was a major improvement over last week's travesty. Much more real and to the heart. I know that most people can't appreciate good quality TV and prefer nonsensical Hollywood narratives filled to the brim with flashy action sequences (See Captain America, Avengers, X-Men, Godzilla, etc) but I was of the mind that the people on this forum were more refined. Looks like I was wrong, oh well.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Gregor's Nancy Boy

[Caerl Targaryen]

- Shae/Tyrion scene had so many plot holes. If she believes Tywin is nearby (or say, his guards) why not scream for help? And I still have a hard time believing Tywin would have sex with a whore who was sleeping with his son. Just not very Tywin-like - but that's GRRM's fault not the show writers :)

Tywin is a massive hypocrite in the books. That's why he was with Shae. He has sex with prostitutes just his son does. Tyrion is more like Tywin than Tywin wants to admit and it just makes him hate his son all the more.

[...] Stannis ... well, not sure what he's doing at the Wall [...]

Stannis is at the Wall because he's been convinced that the real war is against the Others. Therefore, there is no more important place for him to be.

[The hairy bear]

This episode is one of my hugest disappointments in the whole show. I expected great things of it. I truly believed that they'd get it right.

If I had to rate based on my feelings right now, I'd give it a 3. Trying to udge the episode on itself (and trying hard to avoid judging by the expectations that were created, and the fact that a finale should be better than that), I'm giving it a 7.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I give this episode an 8.

But I give the whole season a 4, tbh.

[The Knight in Motley]

It pains me to say it, as I'm a huge show supporter, but this was probaly the most dissapointing episode of the entire series for me. I'm saying that it's bad, in fact its quite good, its just that it had the chance to be amazing and it just fell way short. I've never really had a problem with changes but they really are starting to get to me.

What I loved:

Everything at the Wall. Scene with Jon and Mance was phenomenal, Stannis's arrival was great and the scene with Stannis/Jon/Mance was phenomenal as well. I thought the foreshadowing with Jon and Melisandre was very well done. I actually really liked Jon's scene with Tormund too as well as him burning Ygritte. Just really wish we couldve gotten LC Snow...

Arya's final scene with the Hound was freaking perfect. The acting by both Maise and especially Rory was unbelievably good. His breakdown coupled with her coldness made it one of the most emotionally charged scenes in the entire show.

What I didn't love:

The Hound and Brienne fight. Despite the fact that I loved the post fight scenes I thought the fight itself was a pointless change. I actually really liked the fight itself but the lead up to it was just silly to me. What are the chances that these two small groups meet up in the middle of nowhere. Yes the scenerey is gorgeous but logically it doesn't make any sense.

The Bran scenes just felt off to me. The skeltons remdinded me too much of Pirates of the Carribean and the fireball throwing Child of the forrest just felt odd. Idk. Nothing here was really bad, everything just felt off. Although I will admit Bran talking to Bloodraven was actually really well done.

The massive changes to Jaime and Cersei. Having Cersei threaten Tywin with her incest fundamentally changes her character. In Feast her sole goal is trying to be Tywin and now it seems almost as if she will be glad he is dead. I just don't get why you would whitewash her for so long just to have her go crazy at the one character she would never go crazy at. The Jaime changes break my heart. Having sex in the White Tower and throwing the White Book are just completely contrary to his character development. He should be done with Cersei by this point. Now he doesn't even know everybody she's been fucking because...

Why would you change so much in the Tyrion scene? Why? I understand that its impossible to be 100% loyal but these changes are illogical. Cutting the Tysha story completely derails the character development of both Jaime and Tyrion. Since Jaime doesn't tell him the story Tyrion doesn't tell him about Cersei or claim to have killed Joffery. I know its nice seeing them leave on good terms but it loses all of the power and emotion that the book scene had. Its one saddest most tragic moments in the books, one that Peter and Nikolaj would have nailed and yet for some reason it was just cut. Gone without a trace. Also a lot of little changes here have great implications. By not having Varys lead him to Tywins chambers you lose all the subtle hints that Varys wanted Tyrion to kill Tywin. By having Shae pick up a knife you have Tyrion acting in self defense instead of rage. It just loses so much nuance with these small little changes.

Its just sad becasue this episode had a chance to be something truly special. It had a chance to go down in the histroy books as one of the greatest hours of television ever. But ultimately it just didn't. No offer of Winterfell, No Only Cat(shouldve been saved for finale along with the Jon Arryn reveal), No LC Snow, No Tysha, No Stoneheart. Solid. But not greatness like it could've been.

+1. I was very disappointed and I was waiting for this episode for a long time. With having last week's episode short and only covering the Wall, I'm baffled that they didn't just take the Wall parts from this episode and have them last week. Tyrion's escape just felt completely flat, no Tysha story means no Tyrion wondering about 'wherever whores go'.

No Stoneheart...No Coldhands....

[zaafsta]

I gave it an 8! there were good parts like Stannis, Jon Snow, Dany, and Arya boarding the ship. BUT there was a lot missing, and the Tyrion part was wayyyyyyyyyyy too rushed! And there was no conflict between Jaime, yes that's a good thing but sometimes bad things that happen make a good story (Red wedding was horrible, but it was still good to have it there), so the Tysha thing should've been in there. So instead of Tywin dying cos of Tysha, he dies cos of Shae.. not cool. Hound vs Brienne? That was a waste of time!!! Annnnd I dont think Cersei ever revealed the truth in the books...

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

@Jack's Smirking Revenge, I actually think movies get a little more leeway because they have less time... but there are great feature films based on books in spite of that. And there are terrible ones too.

Game of Thrones has ten hours a year to establish what it needs to. That's a good chunk of time. Unfortunately, I think Tweedle DB and Tweedle David are focusing on establishing what they want to rather than what they should. Otherwise we might have actual characters with depth instead of Ros the Exposition Whore or Pod the Sex God.

Agreed. I know GRRM has a massive number of characters and you can't possibly fit every story line or characters into the show but the show seems to add alot of pointless bullshit that makes it difficult for them to cover important story lines later on.

I just don't get what they are doing with the show. I look at some of the scenes they added in season 1 like the Jaime/Tywin scene which was excellent and brought some much needed attention to both characters but I don't understand why the creators keep adding characters (Ros) and scenes to the show that add nothing at all.

[Barty]

I would have given it a 0 if that had been an option. It was complete BS - they screwed up every scene(except maybe Jon and Mance).

I also dont see why they feel the need to add useless shit like Brienne and Arya/Hound(not to mention the beetles of last episode), when they dont seem to have the time to add relevant and potentially amazing scenes like LS. I am pissed.