How would you rate episode 410?

[ipsuel]

I bet the guy that wanted Michelangelo to make the creation scene in the sistine chapel did not tell him to add fat little baby angels with lutes and flutes, or that Adam should be placed on a cream cloud.

But the adaptation turned out wonderful, even though it is only loosely based upon the original story.

But if I want a painting of Sleeping Beauty in the rose covered castle, I don't want the castle to have black bricks and is haunted and the witch is just an evil monster and she is covered in devils and the sky is black and lightning everywhere.

Sometimes make a change for the better (Cersei and Tommen scene in Blackwater) and sometimes just stick to the books.

It is hard to determine what will be good, but I think cutting half the plot, yet extending it over ten episodes and then cutting out all the awesome stuff...

But I'm guessing that adaptation would NOT turn out so well if he threw in random giraffes, or had Adam sitting on a puppy's head, or floating baby hedgehogs -- or any other random things, that have nothing to do with anything AND that actually change the story.

And guess what? If those changes were made?

I'd critique them as crap, too.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I feel sorry for grrm the most.

Disappointing the fans is one thing, but butchering a masterpiece and the life's work of someone, that is unacceptable.

Yeah. Weren't D&D the ones who offered GRRM to adapt ASOIAF? Jeez, let us do this, we won't screw it up... although we might change everything because, even though we're quite impressed by your work, we think we might do better!

[Casso, King of the Seals]

8/10.

This was a really good episode, but it did not live up to the hype of being the best episode they have ever done. I enjoyed all of the actors' performances, mainly Rory McCann, Emilia Clarke and Lena Heady. I will comment on what I did not particularly like (I really enjoyed the episode and almost all of its scenes): It is a shame we did not see Jaime being true to what he told himself he would be doing when giving Brienne a task (I guess his instincts were strong); the whole fighting sequence with Bran and the wights was almost ridiculous - a child of the forest throwing fiery "bombs" at the wights? Jojen is dead on the show, which I guess happens sooner or later in the books (doesn't have to, but I think that there is a strong chance); Tywin's and Shae's deaths did not particularly move me, I expected a lot from these scenes, as the chapter in which this happens is my all-time favorite chapter of all the books, it is a shame they did not include Tysha.

Overall, this was a very strong episode, but I liked other directors' work more than Alex Graves's. I like the books far more than the show, but it did not disappoint me at all. I am looking forward to the casting news for Season 5.

Season 4: 7;10;8;9;10;8;9;10;9;8/10; the fourth season as a whole: 9/10.

[cmclain5]

Lol this show would never have came about if not for the books. I don't understand how people can watch the show and go all super fan when they really don't know what's going on, and they refuse to read the books. The whole reason the series caught my eye was martins use of language in the books. Why press an issue hard in the books and then drop it in the show like it's nothing? I'm appalled that Jojen was killed off and with the wording in Tywins scenes. The show will obviously have the same ending the books are meant to have, it just seems like the loyal readers are getting the short end of the stick.

[Metopheles]

But I'm guessing that adaptation would NOT turn out so well if he threw in random giraffes, or had Adam sitting on a puppy's head, or floating baby hedgehogs -- or any other random things, that have nothing to do with anything AND that actually change the story.

And guess what? If those changes were made?

I'd critique them as crap, too.

I just imagined that, sorry ;)

You walk around the sistine chapel, Michelangelo painting the dots on a cheetah...

"F you Michaelangelo! This is not part of the story!!"

[Metopheles]

Yeah. Weren't D&D the ones who offered GRRM to adapt ASOIAF? Jeez, let us do this, we won't screw it up... although we might change everything because, even though we're quite impressed by your work, we think we might do better!

And guess what:

GRRM left them one note, one single instruction when they made the deal:

<Don't fuck it up>

All I say now:

Wherever the adaptation goes.

[Metopheles]

7;10;8;9;10;8;9;10;9;8/10;

That pattern :'D

Sounds like a song from the chemical brothers.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Jaime in Dorne would be ridiculous. Again, it would betray their total lack of understanding/appreciation for the characters.

First of all, Jaime would never go to Dorne because Myrcella is presumed safe there. Yes, Oberyn had it in for the Lannisters, but he was known for being out for blood ever since Robert's Rebellion. After the sacking of King's Landing and the murder of the royal family, Oberyn tried to raise Dorne in rebellion. Jon Arryn, newly appointed Hand of the King, had to travel to Dorne to settle him down. House Martell is considered loyal, and Prince Doran is considered senile. That's part of what makes the Martell plot to overthrow the Lannisters so perfect - no one suspects them! Doran himself said that he and Oberyn worked as a team: Oberyn drew attention to himself with his antics and distracted everyone else from the real mastermind, Doran.

Second of all, Jaime in Dorne (and hopefully by this point, on the outs with Cersei) spells sex with Arianne (or a Sand Snake if they stupidly decide to merge her). That's not right for him, either. He may be disaffected with Cersei, but he's been faithful to her all his life. He's not going to go jump in the sack with some sexy stranger.

Last, but not least, Jaime would NEVER GIVE UP. He would save his daughter or die trying. Having him slink away in defeat would be completely out of character.

It goes without saying that putting Jaime in Dorne would jeopardize events in the Riverlands. We would gain nothing from adding him to Dorne, but potentially lose another part of the story. I want to see Jaime and Blackfish in smack-off outside of Riverrun. I want to hear reports about Nymeria's wolfpack terrorizing Freys. I want to see Jaime outwitting his enemies. At best, the Dorne sojourn would be another "Asha rescue" or "Bran capture," i.e. some pointless filler material that ultimately amounts to nothing and just leaves people wondering wtf was the point.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Anarchosaurus Rex

[Filemon]

I say stop hating.

Many of the comments here are made without any criteria, just based on "I've read the books, so that give me authority to spit on the show". First of all we need to keep in mind that the show is for non readers. For us, knowing what will (or at least should) happen, things are very different. For example Lady Stoneheart. That's cool and I agree it's a nice way of ending the books. But if they don't show her on the show that's not an inconsistency or whatever. I doesn't imply bad writing, 'cause its not incoherent in any way with what's shown (they never foreshadowed that or anything similar). Same goes for not showing coldhands, don't be purist on that, the spirit of Bran's story is the same. Others complain that the leaf grenades were the worst of the series. WTF. The children of the forest are supposed to have some magical powers, calm down on that. I agree that bloodraven looked a bit ugly for my taste, but come on, you can't expect everything to look as it does in your mind. And by the way, one the huge merits of the show in general is a good graphical portrait of the books' universe.

That's for the omissions, now for the changes: I don't like some of them either, but this is an adaptation. The encounter Brienne - Arya I think was good, logical, and, for the purists, it didn't change the outcome of the story. Again, don't hate. Omitting Tysha may seem big, but still Tyrion had a lot of reasons to kill Shae and Tywin, its not like its complete nonsense.

And we can discuss about all of these, what's in, what's out, that's what the forum is for. But throwing crap like "Extremely weak" without further reasons is a childish attitude. Saying the writers are dumb, production is cheap, actors are improvising, is for most of the part out of bounds. I think very few are qualified to say such comments. Producing an episode require effort from hundreds of professional people. Saying all their work is poor because Lady Stoneheart is not there is being a crybaby.

I gave it an 8. Not a masterpiece, but far from the disaster some people say. One of my all time favorite moments from the book is Arya saying valar morgulis. And I like it how it happened here, with the music and everything.

The season was good, for me the best since the first one.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And guess what:

GRRM left them one note, one single instruction when they made the deal:

<Don't fuck it up>

All I say now:

Wherever the adaptation goes.

It's like when you say the hairdresser to cut a bit and s/he practically shaves your hair... we've all been there. Edited June 16, 2014 by JonCon's Red Beard

[ipsuel]

I just imagined that, sorry ;)

You walk around the sistine chapel, Michelangelo painting the dots on a cheetah...

"F you Michaelangelo! This is not part of the story!!"

Lol... well I wouldn't curse at him -- but I would critique it! Free speech and all ;-)

[Modesty Lannister]

Yeah. Weren't D&D the ones who offered GRRM to adapt ASOIAF? Jeez, let us do this, we won't screw it up... although we might change everything because, even though we're quite impressed by your work, we think we might do better!

Exactly. It increasingly looks like that. Also, we know which characters are D&D's favourite and which are not by the treatment they get. That is why, amongst other things, they need a broader writers team. They need a fresh perspective.

[White Harbors Wrath]

Jaime in Dorne would be ridiculous. Again, it would betray their total lack of understanding/appreciation for the characters.

First of all, Jaime would never go to Dorne because Myrcella is presumed safe there. Yes, Oberyn had it in for the Lannisters, but he was known for being out for blood ever since Robert's Rebellion. After the sacking of King's Landing and the murder of the royal family, Oberyn tried to raise Dorne in rebellion. Jon Arryn, newly appointed Hand of the King, had to travel to Dorne to settle him down. House Martell is considered loyal, and Prince Doran is considered senile. That's part of what makes the Martell plot to overthrow the Lannisters so perfect - no one suspects them! Doran himself said that he and Oberyn worked as a team: Oberyn drew attention to himself with his antics and distracted everyone else from the real mastermind, Doran.

Second of all, Jaime in Dorne (and hopefully by this point, on the outs with Cersei) spells sex with Arianne (or a Sand Snake if they stupidly decide to merge her). That's not right for him, either. He may be disaffected with Cersei, but he's been faithful to her all his life. He's not going to go jump in the sack with some sexy stranger.

Last, but not least, Jaime would NEVER GIVE UP. He would save his daughter or die trying. Having him slink away in defeat would be completely out of character.

It goes without saying that putting Jaime in Dorne would jeopardize events in the Riverlands. We would gain nothing from adding him to Dorne, but potentially lose another part of the story. I want to see Jaime and Blackfish in smack-off outside of Riverrun. I want to hear reports about Nymeria's wolfpack terrorizing Freys. I want to see Jaime outwitting his enemies. At best, the Dorne sojourn would be another "Asha rescue" or "Bran capture," i.e. some pointless filler material that ultimately amounts to nothing and just leaves people wondering wtf was the point.

I don't disagree with any of this but it doesn't change the fact that one of the Sandsnake readings that was on Vimeo is talking about him being in Dorne

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

GRRM was so resistant to adaptations, but they won him over. He trusted them. And now look at it. Poor guy.

Also, at the same time, they started the show a year or two too soon. Let's be real. It's overtaking the books, and may well even conclude before the books. They got greedy and jumped the gun.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Anarchosaurus Rex

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

I don't disagree with any of this but it doesn't change the fact that one of the Sandsnake readings that was on Vimeo is talking about him being in Dorne

Oh, I'm not saying he won't be. I'm sure they're quite capable of doing that. I'm just saying it would show how totally out of touch they are with the source material.

[Khal Ivo]

I gave it a six, one of the worst of the season. Perhaps my expectations were too high for this episode. I can imagine that the show-watchers liked it very much, but I just can't get over the fact, that while decent, they missed a chance to make it completely awesome.

I liked all the scenes at the Wall. I like Stannis (and Davos even more) and I thought it was handled well. I couldn't disagree more with people complaining about the music - I love the music they play in Stannis' scenes, it is by far my favorite track in the series. I don't see it as villain music, more of a badass music for me. Besides, he is a bit of a villain, otherwise I would not give a shit about his character. I liked Mance, Thormund, Jon Snow burning Ygritte. Every scene with maester Aemon is among my favorites.

Mereen scenes were pretty good as well - both the slave-teacher scene and even more so the burned girl establish that Dany's happy little messianic world is falling apart, which makes her storyline interesting again. The only complaint I have is that those chains looked very heavy (and should be to contain the dragons) and I find it hard to believe that a little girl like Dany would lift them so easily to put them around their necks.

Bran and co. scenes were probably the worst of the season and perhaps the series for me. First of all - the wights - the skeletons and the fight really reminded me of Pirates of Carribean, two skeletons on Hodor's back banging him on the head with a club and other things made the scene comic rather than terrifying, which it should have been. This way Jojen's death also fell flat. And then the Child came throwing fireballs, WTF? I didn't know CotF were such killing machines - if I ever had to name a champion in a trial by combat, I would pick that little girl for sure. Also, she just looked like a human little girl with a strange haircut and clothes. And then we finally get the three-eyed raven whom we've been waiting to see since season 1 and while his lines were great, he looked just like an ordinary grandpa with a long beard and nothing like a 150 year old half man/half tree that he is. These scenes were rather underwhelming.

Arya/Sandor/Brienne/Pod were ok. A little unbelievable that they would meet there, but in a show with dragons and zombies things can be a bit unbelievable. I question Brienne's reasoning a bit - what was she trying to achieve? Kill Sandor and take Arya against her will? And where? Well, I guess Sandor got it right and Brienne is not the brightest person west of the Narrow See. I really liked the final scene of Arya and Sandor.

I have mixed feelings about the King's Landing scenes. The Qyburn scene was nice, I liked Cersei and Tywin mainly due to great acting, I didn't really see the need for the Cersei/Jaime scene, but I would not complain about it. The most important scenes were not handled to their potential in my opinion. Jaime and Tyrion scene was too rushed. Tyrion hearing about Tysha was an important moment in the books - if only for giving him a good reason to risk his life and seek his father to confront him. At the same time, Jaime hearing about Cersei cheating on him was an important moment in the books for his character and his relationship with Cersei. I can't think of a good reason for cutting their scene like that. Tyrion with Shae was a good scene and with Tywin it was great (Any scene with Charles Dance is great, he will be missed). The only thing I have a problem is that while the Shae we saw in this episode was very believable in the books, it just didn't fit with the character of Shae in the series (especially the one we saw in season 2). I really liked the scene where Varys turns back and boards the ship when he hears the bells ringing.

And I also think that no LS is a missed opportunity and it would have been the best ending possible for the season. This was the second season in a row in which the ending fell a bit flat.

So in short:

- Some storylines were good to great (Wall, Arya, Dany)

- Some were good, but had potential to be much better (King's Landing)

- Then there is really bad (Bran and co.)

- And a scene that would have been perfect there was missing

- 6 is a fitting score

[White Harbors Wrath]

Oh, I'm not saying he won't be. I'm sure they're quite capable of doing that. I'm just saying it would show how totally out of touch they are with the source material.

I think at this point we should just thankful that they don't have him raiding the Dreadfort.

[Bridgeburners]

I say stop hating.

<snip>

The season was good, for me the best since the first one.

Okay, there's your response to the people with the explanation-free criticisms that amount to "show writers are dumb, they don't follow the book properly".

Now how about all those people who claim that the show simply has poor writing, and is basically riding off the brilliant source material to account for their success? There are plenty of people writing well thought out and reasoned criticisms for why all the dialogue changes and plot changes are basically garbage, and why this show will never come close to the quality of the television titans (like The Wire, etc). Every single scene that has been given praises for its good writing gets credit entirely from GRRM. What was the big dialogue scene last season? Jamie's tub scene. What was it this season? Tyrion's trial scene.

The thing about the book readers is that we have the ability to control for the material that comes from the books when we evaluate the writing of the show. When you subtract out all the writing achievements of GRRM and simply look at the quality of the show writers alone, you see that the quality is no better than some c-list television show that would get virtually no fame. We have the ability to use that filter, but show-only watchers don't. They see the brilliant stuff whose credit goes entirely to the source material mixed with the garbage that the show writers produce, and don't know which stuff to credit to whom. These are mediocre writers adapting a titanic book series. I am a reader, but I compare GoT to The Wire or Breaking Bad a hell of a lot more often than I compare it to aSoIaF. And in those comparisons, GoT pales as a mere infinitesimal shadow every time.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Bridgeburners

[Metopheles]

It's like when you say the hairdresser to cut a bit and s/he practically shaves your hair... we've all been there.

I hate such moments.

I am not even exaggerating. I point at the picture and end up getting a buzz cut or what its called.

I say basically : "I have what he's having "

and they process the message as:

"Yeah..whatever, do I want what you want me to have."

[Dudu42]

It should end with the Bran.

"No, but you'll be able to fly."

The End.

Not that knowing that Arya is finally going to Braavos isn't great.