Anarchosaurus Rex Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) I think at this point we should just thankful that they don't have him raiding the Dreadfort. Don't jinx it. Okay, there's your response to the people with the explanation-free criticisms that amount to "show writers are dumb, they don't follow the book properly". Now how about all those people who claim that the show simply has poor writing, and is basically riding off the brilliant source material to account for their success? There are plenty of people writing well thought out and reasoned criticisms for why all the dialogue changes and plot changes are basically garbage, and why this show will never come close to the quality of the television titans (like The Wire, etc). Every single scene that has been given praises for its good writing gets credit entirely from GRRM. What was the big dialogue scene last season? Jamie's tub scene. What was it this season? Tyrion's trial scene. The thing about the book readers is that we have the ability to control for the material that comes from the books when we evaluate the writing of the show. When you subtract out all the writing achievements of GRRM and simply look at the quality of the show writers alone, you see that the quality is no better than some c-list television show that would get virtually no fame. We have the ability to use that filter, but show-only watchers don't. They see the brilliant stuff whose credit goes entirely to the source material mixed with the garbage that the show writers produce, and don't know which stuff to credit to whom. These are mediocre writers adapting a titanic book series. I am a reader, but I compare GoT to The Wire or Breaking Bad a hell of a lot more often than I compare it to aSoIaF. And in those comparisons, GoT pales as a mere infinitesimal shadow every time. Hear hear. The fact that they submitted this episode for an Emmy shows how oblivious they are to their own shortcomings. Edited June 16, 2014 by Anarchosaurus Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Let's rally up and throw all our savings together and make our own adaptation. We could just go to HBO and say we do it for half the payment and pay the actors the double, so they join our endeavour.Now we just need a Davos who helps us convince the Iron Bank(HBO) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 ^^^ Tysha doesn't matter for the show. Having Tyrion kill Tywin because of Shae, a character the show audience actually knows is a much better plot device than having Tyrion kill Tywin because of Tysha.. a person they likely wouldn't have even remembered. Luckily, D&D are much smarter than the average board user. Otherwise, this show would be a mess that only book readers could follow.If Tysha did not matter at all they wouldn't have explained her storyline in the first season and they wouldn't have had Tyrion shout "I was wed" in season three when he just thought it in the book.You and the show runners seem to have the same problem. You're assuming the tv audience isn't smart enough for complex narrative, which is very untrue if the last ten years in tv drama is an indication. That "mess" you mention is the books, which are definitely more complex, so you're both admitting the show is dumbing down while praising the show runners as smarter than book readers for doing so. Mixed message. That is not indicative of the writers' intellect, only their arrogance of thinking the viewers are too dumb to follow. Thinking someone is dumb does not mean one is smart. Further proven by your own insult of the book readers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Redeemed Hound Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Can someone explain how they could have put in Stoneheart in the finale? They did not show or cover the BWB/Dondarion all season long. It would have been rushed and stupid to just give it a weak 2-3 minutes. Besides, I don't think any character story has been given 2-3 minutes in any episode. That's a ton of time for one character in this show. All of the most awesome moments are over now. Red Wedding, Eddard's death, Purple Wedding, Viper/Mountain, Blackwater, Battle of the Wall, Lysa flying, Getting the Unsullied, Hatching dragons, Tywin/Shae death, etc., etc. There are not many "HOLY SHIT" moments in books 4 and 5. I can really only think of the fighting pit scene in Mereen that was truly epic. So holding Stoneheart until next season is a great idea. My worry is that they leave her out all together. I don't see how they could do that but you never know. I assume she is more important than Coldhands. Maybe next season, to fill it out, we will see what Osha, Rickon, and Shaggydog are up to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 ^ah..they are so shock loving, it would have been exactly what they wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerl Targaryen Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I think that helps the keep him busy while eliminating a whole plethora of only temporarily useful characters in the Riverlands arc. -They don't have to cast the Riverlands characters -They can avoid Lady Stoneheart -Keep Jaime in the story and somewhat active (whats he going to do all of season 5 otherwise, pout over the White Book and bang Cersei?) The only real hole that leaves is Brienne and her losing her end purpose w/ LS...but they can easily just have her move onto the Vale...which MIGHT be why they advanced Sansa so fast...to make room for future meetups that need to happen sooner.As much as I like AFFC and ADWD, I think they're probably the most difficult books when it comes to adapting them to be riveting TV. So much of the development that happens in those books is internal to the characters. The development is necessary to understanding what's coming next but it wouldn't be the most exciting TV. I can see them wanting to give Jaime something more active to do simply for that reason. And that's ignoring the other limitations they're facing. Or in short, I pretty much agree. Jaime in Dorne would be ridiculous. Again, it would betray their total lack of understanding/appreciation for the characters. First of all, Jaime would never go to Dorne because Myrcella is presumed safe there. Yes, Oberyn had it in for the Lannisters, but he was known for being out for blood ever since Robert's Rebellion. After the sacking of King's Landing and the murder of the royal family, Oberyn tried to raise Dorne in rebellion. Jon Arryn, newly appointed Hand of the King, had to travel to Dorne to settle him down. House Martell is considered loyal, and Prince Doran is considered senile. That's part of what makes the Martell plot to overthrow the Lannisters so perfect - no one suspects them! Doran himself said that he and Oberyn worked as a team: Oberyn drew attention to himself with his antics and distracted everyone else from the real mastermind, Doran. Second of all, Jaime in Dorne (and hopefully by this point, on the outs with Cersei) spells sex with Arianne (or a Sand Snake if they stupidly decide to merge her). That's not right for him, either. He may be disaffected with Cersei, but he's been faithful to her all his life. He's not going to go jump in the sack with some sexy stranger. Last, but not least, Jaime would NEVER GIVE UP. He would save his daughter or die trying. Having him slink away in defeat would be completely out of character. It goes without saying that putting Jaime in Dorne would jeopardize events in the Riverlands. We would gain nothing from adding him to Dorne, but potentially lose another part of the story. I want to see Jaime and Blackfish in smack-off outside of Riverrun. I want to hear reports about Nymeria's wolfpack terrorizing Freys. I want to see Jaime outwitting his enemies. At best, the Dorne sojourn would be another "Asha rescue" or "Bran capture," i.e. some pointless filler material that ultimately amounts to nothing and just leaves people wondering wtf was the point.I don't disagree with any of that. I don't think it necessarily makes story sense or character sense. But it's a change that does make a certain budgetary/screen time sense. That said, I think it will also introduce even bigger problems down the road. The only way I can see it working is if they have Jaime go through a similar arc but just have it be more action driven and less thought driven. Like I said above, though, I'm not very confident that they'll be able to do that after the current season. They desperately need some new writers. I think they've gotten in over their heads by wanting to write so much of each season. They could really use some fresh eyes on things. I remember reading that they were adding at least 1 new writer next season. But they should probably add at least 3. That way they'd be able to focus more on polishing the scripts and breaking the stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarchosaurus Rex Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Can someone explain how they could have put in Stoneheart in the finale? They did not show or cover the BWB/Dondarion all season long. It would have been rushed and stupid to just give it a weak 2-3 minutes. Besides, I don't think any character story has been given 2-3 minutes in any episode. That's a ton of time for one character in this show. All of the most awesome moments are over now. Red Wedding, Eddard's death, Purple Wedding, Viper/Mountain, Blackwater, Battle of the Wall, Lysa flying, Getting the Unsullied, Hatching dragons, Tywin/Shae death, etc., etc. There are not many "HOLY SHIT" moments in books 4 and 5. I can really only think of the fighting pit scene in Mereen that was truly epic. So holding Stoneheart until next season is a great idea. My worry is that they leave her out all together. I don't see how they could do that but you never know. I assume she is more important than Coldhands. Maybe next season, to fill it out, we will see what Osha, Rickon, and Shaggydog are up to? Well, whose fault is it that they did not address events in the Riverlands all season long? They had plenty of time to do so, but chose instead to embark on pointless tangents like Asha's abortive rescue, Bran's abortive capture, and Grey Worm and Missandei's romance, or even bizarre ramblings like the beetle soliloquy. So it's their own damn fault. Besides, how much in the way of "set up" was really needed? Not much. Part of its impact is that you don't see it coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draft0 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 1/10 protest vote. No, I don't really think the episode is that bad. Makes me feel better though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerl Targaryen Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 It's like when you say the hairdresser to cut a bit and s/he practically shaves your hair... we've all been there.I was thinking more along the lines of asking for a little bit off the top and they blow your head off with a shotgun. ;) Okay, there's your response to the people with the explanation-free criticisms that amount to "show writers are dumb, they don't follow the book properly". Now how about all those people who claim that the show simply has poor writing, and is basically riding off the brilliant source material to account for their success? There are plenty of people writing well thought out and reasoned criticisms for why all the dialogue changes and plot changes are basically garbage, and why this show will never come close to the quality of the television titans (like The Wire, etc). Every single scene that has been given praises for its good writing gets credit entirely from GRRM. What was the big dialogue scene last season? Jamie's tub scene. What was it this season? Tyrion's trial scene. The thing about the book readers is that we have the ability to control for the material that comes from the books when we evaluate the writing of the show. When you subtract out all the writing achievements of GRRM and simply look at the quality of the show writers alone, you see that the quality is no better than some c-list television show that would get virtually no fame. We have the ability to use that filter, but show-only watchers don't. They see the brilliant stuff whose credit goes entirely to the source material mixed with the garbage that the show writers produce, and don't know which stuff to credit to whom. These are mediocre writers adapting a titanic book series. I am a reader, but I compare GoT to The Wire or Breaking Bad a hell of a lot more often than I compare it to aSoIaF. And in those comparisons, GoT pales as a mere infinitesimal shadow every time.Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Worse rated season ever? As if the hand full of whiners on this forum's opinions mean anything at all? Go read some reviews from out side this pit of despair if you want to know how real people feel about this amazing show. Honestly, the moaners on this site are so bad, I wouldn't doubt at all if most of them didn't have 20 different accounts on here just so they could post their idiocy under 20 different "users". I mean, have you ever read the complaints? They're almost always exactly the same. So, either we have a ton of clones that all whine about the same ridiculous things, or we have a few users that create multiple accounts just so it looks like more people agree with them. I'd say the latter. This is seriously the worse forum I've ever visited. What does it tell you that so many people are reacting negatively to the show? Occam's Razor, buddy. 1. Legions of fans are just people with bad taste and impossible to please. 2. *gasp* The show is flawed, as both a adaptation and a standalone show.I'd try not to be so sensitive if I was you. No show is too good for criticism, and dismissing it the way you do is not doing the show any favors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Harbors Wrath Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Well, whose fault is it that they did not address events in the Riverlands all season long? They had plenty of time to do so, but chose instead to embark on pointless tangents like Asha's abortive rescue, Bran's abortive capture, and Grey Worm and Missandei's romance, or even bizarre ramblings like the beetle soliloquy. So it's their own damn fault. Besides, how much in the way of "set up" was really needed? Not much. Part of its impact is that you don't see it coming.They explained a minor plot point (in the show) from four seasons ago of Jorahs betrayal using a recap and a note. They could have easily recapped Thoros bringing Beric back and then have a couple guys chatting about " Beric giving her the kiss of life, she don't speak but she remembers" etc etc....the show some hooded woman and reveal her to be unCat. I'm not saying that I really long to see that, but they could've easily done it with no VFX at all, a couple extras and Fairley in makeup. It would have been one of the cheapest filmed and easily set up shots in the whole series IF they wanted LS in there. They obviously don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Harbors Wrath Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 What does it tell you that so many people are reacting negatively to the show? Occam's Razor, buddy. 1. Legions of fans are just people with bad taste and impossible to please. 2. *gasp* The show is flawed, as both a adaptation and a standalone show.I'd try not to be so sensitive if I was you. No show is too good for criticism, and dismissing it the way you do is not doing the show any favors.I think you're a bit tainted just by seeing so many forum opinions. Talking to all the unsullied at work they loved it and thought it was one the greatest episodes and greatest seasons ever. So 1000 of us don't like it and 8 million people do like it. We're definitely not the majority they're catering to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holymoly Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 What the actual fuck? Brienne killing Sandor and Varys running off with Tyrion?!? Is this the screenwriters getting ready to overtake GRRM with the story? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defeatarion Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Starksmustwin, on 16 Jun 2014 - 08:50 AM, said: Worse rated season ever? As if the hand full of whiners on this forum's opinions mean anything at all? Go read some reviews from out side this pit of despair if you want to know how real people feel about this amazing show. Honestly, the moaners on this site are so bad, I wouldn't doubt at all if most of them didn't have 20 different accounts on here just so they could post their idiocy under 20 different "users". I mean, have you ever read the complaints? They're almost always exactly the same. So, either we have a ton of clones that all whine about the same ridiculous things, or we have a few users that create multiple accounts just so it looks like more people agree with them. I'd say the latter.This is seriously the worse forum I've ever visited. Yeah they do all complain about the same things! They must have some certain guidelines they all follow. Like...like some books or something...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 It's unfortunate that the topic has veered so of course into random complaints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordFirkraag Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 The most disappointing episode in the series for sure. It's come to the point where they're going off on an ego trip and the adaptations they're making are unnecessary and incredibly inferior to the original. It's not merely that GRRM is a better writer than them. To be brutally honest, I get the feeling that Benioff and Weiss aren't that bright. Just in general intelligence. It's like they can't even comprehend the nuances of the GRRM's work ... let alone improve upon it, for God's sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Have to say I was massively disappointed about no Tysha revelation from Jaime... it makes his rage against Tywin that much more potent (not to mention turning against Jaime as well), and it literally consumes his thoughts in the next book. BUT... the show is its own entity. Does Tyrion killing Shae & Tywin still "work" on the show? Did Tyrion have enough motivation already for it to be believable? Yes, I think so. And I can understand how it would be difficult for them to "switch tracks" from Shae to Tysha on the show. I am confident they tried it, and they couldn't get it to work. Omitting Tysha lets them keep the focus on Tyrion's betrayal from someone we've actually SEEN on the show (Shae). Also was hoping for LS (and a few more Jon Snow items)... but if they've saved that for next season, so be it. So with those caveats in place... 10/10. Television does not get any better than this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Carnahan Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) 5 Disappointed about the lack of LS and Tysha. I also felt like they shouldn't have let the Lannister brothers end on good terms, Jaime is supposed to start questioning Cersei and pull away from her, not have sex with her on a table. The Tyrion-Shae scene was quite good, but the Tyrion-Tywin scene felt underwhelming and too short. Dany scene was okay, Emilia's acting when chaining up the dragons was better than anything else she has done this scene. Stannis (Stephen Dillane) was perfect of course, as always, though they managed to make him look a bit like the villain once again (loved how much in sync he was with Davos though). The burning of Ygritte was useless (they should have used this time for LS!!!!). The fight between Brienne and the Hound was okay (Brienne is quite shite at protecting the Stark girls though). Arya and the Hound easily was the best scene of the episode, amazing acting by both of them (+ glad that they included the mention of Sansa). oh and Jojen's death was quite harsh, the child deserved a softer death. It was an okay episode, but it definitely didn't live up to expectations. Edited June 16, 2014 by empresslaseen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I think you're a bit tainted just by seeing so many forum opinions. Talking to all the unsullied at work they loved it and thought it was one the greatest episodes and greatest seasons ever. So 1000 of us don't like it and 8 million people do like it. We're definitely not the majority they're catering to.There are plenty of people who dislike the show (nonbook readers) that aren't on this forum. Number of viewers isn't really an indication of quality so its just as fair to say there are much more than a thousand people who don't like it. And eight million isn't very much either when you consider the US has upwards of three hundred million people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 It's unfortunate that the topic has veered so of course into random complaints. It's not complaining if it's true. Well it is, but not in a bad way. What did the show apologists say about our complaining? "Deal with it". Well, you deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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