Modesty Lannister Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Look at where we are plot wise 1) Arya sailing to Bravvos 2) The Hound left to die 3) Tyrion kills Tywin and heads for Pentos 4) Stannis is at the wall. mance is his prisoner. 5) Dany is in Meereen and locking up her dragons. 6) Cersei is asserting her power as Queen Regent. Qyburn is experimenting on people. 7) Sansa is leaving the Eyrie with LF. 8) Theon and the Boltons are taking up residence in Winterfell. 9) Brienne and Pod are looking for the Starks. 10) Tommen is going to marry marge. These are the same beats as the books. Ok so there have been some changes to individual journeys but this is clearly an adaptation of GRRMs books rather than fanfic. I think you are nitpicking. 1. Jojen dies and is alive in the books. 2. Pyp dies, along with bunch of people who are still alive and who will continue to appear in the books. 3. Tormund Giantbane is a prisoner at the Wall, which will alter the future wall plot. 4. Mance's child is not born, nor he has a wife and that wife does not have a sister. 5. There is no fake Arya. 6. Jaime has no motive to release Tyrion. 7. Jaime has no motive to doubt Cersei's fidelity. 8. Sansa should not be leaving the Eyrie at this stage, nor should she be known as Sansa to other people, nor should she be aware of her sexual power of LF. There is a psychological reason behind GRRM's development of that plot the way it was done in the books. 9. Alliser Throne was not at Castle Black and could never fight Tormund Giantbane who also wasn't there. 10. Varys is not a mummer and master of disguise. He has never led a double life as a black cells jailer. So, the whole effect of his everlasting unnoticed presence is lost. Why? 11. Tyrion has no motive to go to his father's rooms. 12. Cersei behaves like a fly caught in a jar. She goes from licking Tywin's arse to openly defying him. That's not a character anymore. i don't know what that is. A character from a soap maybe? 13. Mace Tyrell has been reduced to a caricature. Why was his rejection of Tyrell/Cersei match omitted? GRRM's characters are rich even if they have just a couple of sentences in the books. Every single alternation I mentioned is altering psychology and motivations of characters. It is also foreshadowing big alternations of the future plot and GRRM's narrative. Mostly, it is dumming everything down. GRRM writes great dialogues and each of his characters has a solid motivation for their actions. My unsullied friends have been totally confused by season 4. They constantly ask for explanations of events and motivations. If that is great writing, then your standards are very very very low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolsimir Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 His motivation is a murkier question, but it's not "illogical." He's not thinking straight – he's been in a cell contemplating his own death for several days now, and he knows Tywin has the power to stop it. Everyone saying "oh, it's not Tywin's fault that Tyrion's getting executed, he has no reason to be angry with him" is failing to understand the mentality of a man who's just been sentenced to death by his own father. It's perfectly understandable that he would make the impulsive decision to follow a nearby passageway he knows leads to Tywin's chambers. No. Just no. Tyrion knew that his father has wanted him dead ever since he was born, has he ever done anything about this? No. Why would he do something now, when he has the chance to barely escape death? He had no idea Shae was there, so that can't be it. And since the reason he kills Tywin is apparently because he calls Shae a whore (Shae just tried to kill him and he is offended by this?), we know that he did not want to go there to kill Tywin. So what did he want to do there? Talk? About what? One of the most important scenes from the books makes no sense and is terribly contrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 You really can't tell? If your father, after hating you your entire life, finally decided to sentence you to death, I repeat, if your father sentenced you to die for no reason whatsoever, you wouldn't want to, hell, you wouldn't need to face him and simply ask him: "Why? What have I ever done to you to deserve this treatment?" You're really saying this? Really? Well then, more power to you, I guess. And how did Tyrion know where to find his father? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 How do you know that the Missandei/Greyworm thing doesn't have some important implication down the road? In the show, it's very well done and tasteful. it's also a very valid point to bring up- the Unsullied may be castrated and they may be warriors, but they are also humans. And up until recently, they haven't been treated as such. This so much. People moaning about this great pairing are completely the point. Their loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) And how did Tyrion know where to find his father? As someone already said, that's the definition of nitpicking. Remember that Varys showed him the map of all the underground passageways back in "Blackwater". It's perfectly possible he remembered it there. Also, Tyrion had been Hand of the King for quite a while; his chambers were in the Tower of the Hand. I don't think it's a stretch to assume he knew his way around. Edited June 19, 2014 by Mr Fixit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
species5618w Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 You really can't tell? If your father, after hating you your entire life, finally decided to sentence you to death, I repeat, if your father sentenced you to die for no reason whatsoever, you wouldn't want to, hell, you wouldn't need to face him and simply ask him: "Why? What have I ever done to you to deserve this treatment?" You're really saying this? Really? Well then, more power to you, I guess. "Why? You ask that? You who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors since I cannot prove that you are not mine. And to teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men will ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse. " :) I love the show Tywin. Tywin said the same thing in the books, but Charles Dance really brought his emotion out. I felt that he was close to tears when he told Tyrion that he was going to kill him when he was born. I still don't believe Tywin meant to have Tyrion killed though. A last minute pardon and taking the black was still on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) No. Just no. Tyrion knew that his father has wanted him dead ever since he was born, has he ever done anything about this? No. Why would he do something now, when he has the chance to barely escape death? He had no idea Shae was there, so that can't be it. And since the reason he kills Tywin is apparently because he calls Shae a whore (Shae just tried to kill him and he is offended by this?), we know that he did not want to go there to kill Tywin. So what did he want to do there? Talk? About what? One of the most important scenes from the books makes no sense and is terribly contrived. Cannot agree more. Tysha story was introduced in the show - twice. And then it was unused. Tysha story makes Tyrion blind with rage. He then goes on and commits two second degree murders. He would have never killed Tywin otherwise. No motive. Or as you said, no new motive. Plus, if you have Tysha story hanging over like a Chekov's gun, then use it. Viewers know who Tysha is. And how does Tyrion know where to find Tywin? Suddenly he is the master of the Red Keep tunnels. Pls. Total mess. Above all, we do not see a possibility that Tywin has already been poisoned. We do not see him constipated. That blows away the whole Dornish revenge subplot. D&D are killing so many subplots that they will end up killing the whole narrative if they continue down this path of simplifying what should be left complicated while inventing beetle stories, love stories between maidens and eunuchs, drinking wine from people's skulls, showing mass rape in detail, making Asha (Yara, whoever) sail around Westeros to rescue her brother only to run with her tail between her legs, creating a series of almost meetings that make no sense etc. Edited June 19, 2014 by Modesty Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolsimir Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 As someone already said, that's the definition of nitpicking. Remember that Varys showed him the map of all the underground passageways back in "Blackwater". It's perfectly possible he remembered it there. Also, Tyrion had been Hand of the King for quite a while; his chambers were in the Tower of the Hand. I don't think it's a stretch to assume he knew his way around. Why do we have to assume things? Why can't the show clearly explain them? If we want to criticize something we can only work with what we are given. The facts. And it's a fact that it was never explained how Tyrion can navigate through the secret dungeons. I think that it's a perfectly valid criticism, even though it can easily be ignored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 This so much. People moaning about this great pairing are completely the point. Their loss. Sure, it is a fine pairing. But when it comes at the cost of so much other character development there is a point. Show's loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 As someone already said, that's the definition of nitpicking. Remember that Varys showed him the map of all the underground passageways back in "Blackwater". It's perfectly possible he remembered it there. Also, Tyrion had been Hand of the King for quite a while; his chambers were in the Tower of the Hand. I don't think it's a stretch to assume he knew his way around. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I still don't believe Tywin meant to have Tyrion killed though. A last minute pardon and taking the black was still on the table. I guess we'll never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
species5618w Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 As someone already said, that's the definition of nitpicking. Remember that Varys showed him the map of all the underground passageways back in "Blackwater". It's perfectly possible he remembered it there. Also, Tyrion had been Hand of the King for quite a while; his chambers were in the Tower of the Hand. I don't think it's a stretch to assume he knew his way around. I highly doubt Varys would have shown him his spy network. Tywin was the hand of the King for 20 years, yet he didn't know the tunnels. Yet Tyrion knew exactly where to go from the black cells. It just didn't make any sense. I was actually surprised that Varys would have exposed his spy network even to save Tyrion in the books. His little birds would be much less effective. Yet the tunnels seems to be still in use later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 As someone already said, that's the definition of nitpicking. Remember that Varys showed him the map of all the underground passageways back in "Blackwater". It's perfectly possible he remembered it there. Also, Tyrion had been Hand of the King for quite a while; his chambers were in the Tower of the Hand. I don't think it's a stretch to assume he knew his way around. LOL. So, the show thinks the audience is too stupid to keep "Asha" and "Arya" separate but they're going to remember the scene from 3 years ago with the map??? All they had to do was put Varys in the tunnel with 10 seconds of exchange and no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Sure, it is a fine pairing. But when it comes at the cost of so much other character development there is a point. Show's loss. Such as...? Who do we need to know more about? Who suffered because we got about 10 minutes of screentime between Missandei and Grey Worm? (btw, both of them will be added in the opening credits as regular cast members next season) Edited June 19, 2014 by sj4iy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floppytrout Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I gave it a 3, for Stannis (that evil entrance music though) and pleasantly little Daenerys. Not gonna mention Bran/Bloodraven/Draugr/fireballs scene, just too awful to cope with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Sure, it is a fine pairing. But when it comes at the cost of so much other character development there is a point. Show's loss. I see your point, but I don't subscribe to that particular theory. Books are huge. Every single thing the show adds on its own can be thought of as taking the time away from something in the book. You could always say: "Yeah, that scene was pretty good and all, but had they omitted it, they could've included this bit or that bit." It can be a relevant critique, of course, but I don't think one should argue that way in general. I for one believe those Missandei - Grey Worm scenes (and let's not blow this out of proportion; they were very few) were nicely handled and really spoke to some universal truths that ASoIaF is exploring. I thought it was beautiful to see two former slaves, one of whom isn't even capable of sexual relations, developing the most basic of human bonds: the need to love and be loved, to belong, to have a life beyond your profession, to just take a breath and look around and try to re-invent yourself if only a little bit. It's a worthy message and a worthy way to spend several minutes of your 10-hours-long season. If others don't see it that way, I'm sorry. But those scenes were most definitely not a waste. Edited June 19, 2014 by Mr Fixit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Why do we have to assume things? Why can't the show clearly explain them? If we want to criticize something we can only work with what we are given. The facts. And it's a fact that it was never explained how Tyrion can navigate through the secret dungeons. I think that it's a perfectly valid criticism, even though it can easily be ignored. Of course, if the audience wants everything spelled out for them, I guess. Why exactly wouldn't Tyrion know about these passageways? He was Hand for, what, 6-9 months with his "base of operations" in the Tower of the Hand. Maybe he spent his free time roaming around Arya-style :cool4: Varys did show him that map. Tyrion, smart guy that he is, would probably remember some of the more "interesting" passageways, and those under his home at the time would definitely fit the bill. I mean, why are we even debating this stuff? It's so inconsequential and easily and logically explainable that I don't know what you guys get from all this. If you hate it, you hate it, great for you, don't stoop to these silly nitpicks . Edited June 19, 2014 by Mr Fixit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Such as...? Who do we need to know more about? Who suffered because we got about 10 minutes of screentime between Missandei and Grey Worm? The entire Wall storyline and characters involved. The characters of the Dragons and how they directly relate to Dany's own personality and character. Amongst others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pentos Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 1. Jojen dies and is alive in the books. 2. Pyp dies, along with bunch of people who are still alive and who will continue to appear in the books. 3. Tormund Giantbane is a prisoner at the Wall, which will alter the future wall plot. 4. Mance's child is not born, nor he has a wife and that wife does not have a sister. 5. There is no fake Arya. 6. Jaime has no motive to release Tyrion. 7. Jaime has no motive to doubt Cersei's fidelity. 8. Sansa should not be leaving the Eyrie at this stage, nor should she be known as Sansa to other people, nor should she be aware of her sexual power of LF. There is a psychological reason behind GRRM's development of that plot the way it was done in the books. 9. Alliser Throne was not at Castle Black and could never fight Tormund Giantbane who also wasn't there. 10. Varys is not a mummer and master of disguise. He has never led a double life as a black cells jailer. So, the whole effect of his everlasting unnoticed presence is lost. Why? 11. Tyrion has no motive to go to his father's rooms. 12. Cersei behaves like a fly caught in a jar. She goes from licking Tywin's arse to openly defying him. That's not a character anymore. i don't know what that is. A character from a soap maybe? 13. Mace Tyrell has been reduced to a caricature. Why was his rejection of Tyrell/Cersei match omitted? GRRM's characters are rich even if they have just a couple of sentences in the books. Every single alternation I mentioned is altering psychology and motivations of characters. It is also foreshadowing big alternations of the future plot and GRRM's narrative. Mostly, it is dumming everything down. GRRM writes great dialogues and each of his characters has a solid motivation for their actions. My unsullied friends have been totally confused by season 4. They constantly ask for explanations of events and motivations. If that is great writing, then your standards are very very very low. This is just a list of nitpicks. So what if Jojen is dead? He's a minor character. Likewise Pyp and Grenn. Mace? Who cares? He's pretty irrelevant so far. Might come into his own in future seasons. D&D don't have 20 years and ten million words to tell the story on tv. They have to pare it down to it's essence. You also don't seem able to differentiate between the forms of tv and literature. How does the show communicate Varys 'everlasting unknown presence.' i think it makes sense to give the character more to do rather than him just disappearing from our screens for a year. Jaime has no motive to free his little brother? What are you on dude. They love each other. Your list reads like a fundamentalist book fan who just wants EVERYTHING to be exactly like GRRM wrote it. Who cares if Thorne wasn't at castle Black in the books? It worked well in the show. Fake Arya will appear next season I'd have thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 And how did Tyrion know where to find his father? Tyrion knew that his father goes everyday at 11pm to the last privy in the corridor of the western wing of the Red Keep, obviously. I mean, who would have a privy next to his personal chambers. :lol: That was the stupidest part of it. Have Tyrion walk along this long corridor to find him on the last toilet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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