Frey Pentos Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Why do we have to assume things? Why can't the show clearly explain them? Because the show would have to run for about a hundred seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolsimir Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Of course, if the audience wants everything spelled out for them, I guess. Why exactly wouldn't Tyrion know about these passageways? He was Hand for, what, 6-9 months with his "base of operations" in the Tower of the Hand. Maybe he spent his free time roaming around Arya style :cool4: Varys did show him that map. Tyrion, smart guy that he is, would probably remember some of the more "interesting" passageways, and those under his home at the time would definitely fit the bill. I mean, why are we even debating this stuff? It's so inconsequential and easily and logically explainable that I don't know what you guys get from all this. If you hate it, you hate it, great for you, don't stoop to these silly nitpicks . This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. It is not up to the audience to try and come up with explanations, that is the job of the writers. Just because they leave minor things unexplained does not mean it is ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grufolo Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Today i spoke with an unsullied friend and he could not understand why Tyrion killed Shae. Taking away the Tysha lines the killing spree of Tyrion is hardly justified. That is the only low in the episode. It could have been a 10, otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Tyrion knew that his father goes everyday at 11pm to the last privy in the corridor of the western wing of the Red Keep, obviously. I mean, who would have a privy next to his personal chambers. :lol: That was the stupidest part of it. Have Tyrion walk along this long corridor to find him on the last toilet. Let me get this straight. The stupidest part of the whole thing is the placement of the privy in relation to the bedroom? Did I understand you correctly? I asked this already, but maybe you could answer me: do you think the Enterprise could beat a Star Destroyer in a fair fight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) His father just condemned him to death, is it not enough to confront him? And then Tyrion found Shae in Tywin's bed, another reason to kill Tywin (who called her a "whore" twice) the hypocrit saying in his face that he deshonored the family with whores while he was doing the same thing. As for Shae, she betrayed Tyrion because he left her for Sansa, and because Cersei forced her to make a testimony against him (it's the same in the books)... In the bedroom, she knew he was gonna be mad at her. As for the door, how is it different from the books? Tyrion climbs the stairs in the darkness and find his father's appartments... Nothing is illogical, it's just you who can't accept little changes. Don't watch an adaptation if you don't accept that the books are adapted... It's perhaps not "illogical", but it doesn't make as much sense. Book-Shae and TV-Shae are different. Book-Shae was an opportunist playing Tyrion for a decadent lifestyle, and Tyrion was happy to have such a willing player of the role of his sex kitten so had his blinkers on. TV-Shae actually cares about Tyrion and Sansa. Condemning them to death just because he sent her away for her own protection simply doesn't makes sense for TV-Shae. Having changed her, they should also have changed how the whole situation unfolds. It's not a problem with there being changes to characters or story, it's a problem with changes that they don't keep to. If you change one thing, you should change other things down the line that make less sense because of the change. Cause and effect plays a big part in ASoIaF and Martin meticulously built the story around his characters' decisions, which were often based on their life experiences. Tyrion gets a chance at freedom. It has to be something monumental that causes him to confront Tywin, otherwise he's sensible enough to realise he needs to get out of KL. The Tysha reveal is monumental because it's an episode he has been dealing with all his life and arguably shapes his personality and character. To find out that his family betrayed him in such a despicable and brutal fashion does something terrible to his psyche. If it was condemning him to death that made him want to confront and kill someone surely it would be Cersei he would want to kill, who accused him and desperately wanted him dead. Tywin disliked Tyrion but he was forced into his position as judge as Hand Of The King, and it was Tyrion who eventually asked for a Trial By Combat, which Tywin had no control over. I have argued what they should have done is change it so Shae doesn't give her testimony against Tyrion, is caught before she makes the ship and hanged by Tywin as he promised he would. If their love was truly real as the show had us believe, Tyrion might then have sought vengeance for the killing of the Shae he loved. Also, the show did NOT make it look as though Shae was coerced into testifying against Tyrion. She looked in complete control of what she was doing. She had not been built up to be spiteful in the preceding seasons. Edited June 19, 2014 by Dolorous Gabe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The entire Wall storyline and characters involved. The characters of the Dragons and how they directly relate to Dany's own personality and character. Amongst others. The Wall got more time than any other storyline this season. They even added MORE to the Wall's storyline than was in the books, and gave them THE prominent episode of the season, as well as the first 10 minutes of the last episode. The Wall was covered. We have time for the dragons next season, where they will be more important. I'm still not convinced that someone suffered greatly from 10 minutes of character building for two characters who ACTUALLY needed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Let me get this straight. The stupidest part of the whole thing is the placement of the privy in relation to the bedroom? Did I understand you correctly? I asked this already, but maybe you could answer me: do you think the Enterprise could beat a Star Destroyer in a fair fight? yes the privy placement was the stupidest part of the finale. Common. what has Tywin in all these other chambers in that corridor..or what? This made no sense. Have the shitter next to his room please. It is a suite for god's sake. It's a wonder he didn't shit in his bed, as they all had chamberpots. And a cardboard saucer with two pencil engines and colourful buttons and beep boo beep sounds against a metal monster in the shape of a triangle with thousands of cannons and lasers, hangars full of Tie Fighters and Bombers, tractor beams and Piett as commander? please. The Enterprise has no chance against the full power of the Galactic Empire. The Enterprise would fit in it's main hangar after all. And the Star Destroyers have no canyon where they could shoot a torpedo in it to destroy it. I mean are you kidding me? Who could even ask this? Besides, if it came to boarding, the crew of the Enterprise wears ballet uniforms in different colours. The Imperial Forces wear pure white armor and helmets, have blasters and thermal detonators and a chance of Darth Vader with his frickin Lightsaber. Spock would be outwitted by any protocol droid. Vulcans..tsk..he may have been born on Vulcan, but Darth Vader was born inside a volcano on a volcano planet. And if it came to escape...hahaha..not that they would have to use their tractor beams, the Star Destroyer would simply be faster than them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The Wall got more time than any other storyline this season. They even added MORE to the Wall's storyline than was in the books, and gave them THE prominent episode of the season, as well as the first 10 minutes of the last episode. The Wall was covered. We have time for the dragons next season, where they will be more important. I'm still not convinced that someone suffered greatly from 10 minutes of character building for two characters who ACTUALLY needed it. The trouble is, we can't judge the Missandei/Grey Worm stuff yet because we don't know where D&D are going to take the story. If it turns out to be important, then fine, but if it's just there because D&D wanted to put an unusual love story between them into the story, I'm not convinced it was time well spent. I'm guessing they're building it up so they can kill off Grey Worm and have Missandei get all emotional about it, or perhaps vice-versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 And a cardboard saucer with two pencil engines and colourful buttons and beep boo beep sounds against a metal monster in the shape of a triangle with thousands of cannons and lasers, hangars full of Tie Fighters and Bombers, tractor beams and Piett as commander? please. The Enterprise has no chance against the full power of the Galactic Empire. The Enterprise would fit in it's main hangar after all. And the Star Destroyers have no canyon where they could shoot a torpedo in it to destroy it. I mean are you kidding me? Who could even ask this? Besides, if it came to boarding, the crew of the Enterprise wears ballet uniforms in different colours. The Imperial Forces wear pure white armor and helmets, have blasters and thermal detonators and a chance of Darth Vader with his frickin Lightsaber. Spock would be outwitted by any protocol droid. Vulcans..tsk..he may have been born on Vulcan, but Darth Vader was born inside a volcano on a volcano planet. And if it came to escape...hahaha..not that they would have to use their tractor beams, the Star Destroyer would simply be faster than them. Pffft. You clearly see five lights where there are only four. :idea: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) The Wall got more time than any other storyline this season. They even added MORE to the Wall's storyline than was in the books, and gave them THE prominent episode of the season, as well as the first 10 minutes of the last episode. The Wall was covered.. And yet the watchers I know who hailed the FX of the final episode, when I asked "But did you care?" replied with "Well, not really, no." The added scenes were, in large part, hamfisted failures - I didn't mind the Moles Town town material, and I don't mind the Thenn being cannibals - but it appears that widely few cared about Sam and Gilly this season and "Why do I have to watch this" was a common sentiment. The Crasters sequences asked far more questions than they answered and failed to generate any dramatic tension for the final episode. Do you have a citation for the claim the Wall had more than any other this season? Line counts I have seen would suggest KL had far more than the wall. The Wall was not well covered - in line with the last 3 seasons. We have time for the dragons next season, where they will be more important.. I have heard this before, and I used to just accept it - but the numerous times this season that "Just have patience! They will do it later this season!" has been demonstrated to be false means that I will not just accept it out of hand any longer. A grumpy Drogon in Ep 1 and a human killing Drogon in Ep 10 do not support the claim they will be used as a device to explain the character arc Dany is going through. Edfit: In fact I treat it with the same disdain as the "OMG! Mel is going to burn Yara!!!" rubbish. Edited June 19, 2014 by Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) A grumpy Drogon in Ep 1 and a human killing Drogon in Ep 10 do not support the claim they will be used as a device to explain the character arc Dany is going through. Why do you hate goats so much? What have they ever done to you? ^_^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6tKZ-cg4RI Edited June 19, 2014 by Mr Fixit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The trouble is, we can't judge the Missandei/Grey Worm stuff yet because we don't know where D&D are going to take the story. If it turns out to be important, then fine, but if it's just there because D&D wanted to put an unusual love story between them into the story, I'm not convinced it was time well spent. I'm guessing they're building it up so they can kill off Grey Worm and have Missandei get all emotional about it, or perhaps vice-versa. I have no problem waiting the storyline out to see where it goes, then making a judgment on it based on its effectiveness in the show. I like the fact that we can't see where it's going, because that's what makes the show interesting. If it were a carbon copy of the books, then what would be the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) This is just a list of nitpicks. So what if Jojen is dead? He's a minor character. Likewise Pyp and Grenn. Mace? Who cares? He's pretty irrelevant so far. Might come into his own in future seasons. D&D don't have 20 years and ten million words to tell the story on tv. They have to pare it down to it's essence. You also don't seem able to differentiate between the forms of tv and literature. How does the show communicate Varys 'everlasting unknown presence.' i think it makes sense to give the character more to do rather than him just disappearing from our screens for a year. Jaime has no motive to free his little brother? What are you on dude. They love each other. Your list reads like a fundamentalist book fan who just wants EVERYTHING to be exactly like GRRM wrote it. Who cares if Thorne wasn't at castle Black in the books? It worked well in the show. Fake Arya will appear next season I'd have thought. Well, that is the difference between adaptation and fan fiction. You demonstrate that you don't distinguish between the two and/or don't care. That's fine. But, why are you so wired when other people care? Every work that has been made public opens itself to criticism. You don't need to agree with mine, but you have no right to deny my right to free speech and free criticism. Especially, since it is based on arguments. These arguments may not be valid to you, but they are valid to me and to many other people. And if you bothered to read my critique of episode 10, you'd realize that I've been much less purist than most connoisseurs of the books. I have already stated my arguments and I'm not going to repeat them endlessly. The series is sinking into irrational fan fiction and I care because I love what GRRM has written. I have a feeling that D&D endlessly want to prove that they are better writers. They alter the best lines for no reason and they keep inventing ridiculous plot-lines that serve no purpose while erasing meaningful plot-lines that do serve a purpose. GRRM has woven an intricate plot tapestry and if one keeps pulling threads out of it, it will eventually go to pieces. And I do fear that process is well underway. Edited June 19, 2014 by Modesty Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 It was utter garbage and I can't even fathom how anyone would rate an episode where Leaf throwa fireballs at skeletons higher than 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogon's Personal Trainer Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 His motivation is a murkier question, but it's not "illogical." He's not thinking straight – he's been in a cell contemplating his own death for several days now, and he knows Tywin has the power to stop it. Everyone saying "oh, it's not Tywin's fault that Tyrion's getting executed, he has no reason to be angry with him" is failing to understand the mentality of a man who's just been sentenced to death by his own father. It's perfectly understandable that he would make the impulsive decision to follow a nearby passageway he knows leads to Tywin's chambers. See - even I can't accept this, Haldir. Let's forget the books for a moment and examine this as a show only scenario. If Tyrion is pissed with his father for sentencing him to death, he goes off to confront him about it? Let's forget we know what happens for the moment. Suppose Shae hadn't been in the bed? Suppose Tywin calls his guards. Heck, suppose Tywin actually has a guard in the room with him. Plus, isn't Tyrion putting Jaime into jeopardy too, for releasing him? Or are we thinking that Tyrion went there with the sole intention of killing his father? If he didn't - if he just went there to offer one of his usual snarky speeches, I think he would be acting foolishly. He is putting himself right back into the danger Jaime has just freed him from. Perhaps this was the intention from the show writers, however. To show he wasn't thinking straight, but even so....As I say - this was only a small thing in the end, but it did scream out at me for those few seconds when he was at the crossroads in the corridor. I've read the other explanations here from the posters, but it did come off as a bit contrived to me. (Gosh - I never thought I'd be a nitpicker :)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I have no problem waiting the storyline out to see where it goes, then making a judgment on it based on its effectiveness in the show. I like the fact that we can't see where it's going, because that's what makes the show interesting. If it were a carbon copy of the books, then what would be the point? I'd be fine with a carbon copy, but really I just want it to be consistent with how they change it. When they change it, they should take the change into consideration further down the line. My main problem with the show is that they've changed things and then taken the same route with characters whose motivations and personality don't completely match up. Next season could be very interesting if they've learned from this and decide to take their own route and follow through with it. I'd rather they do that now, especially if they do end up catching up with the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) And yet the watchers I know who hailed the FX of the final episode, when I asked "But did you care?" replied with "Well, not really, no." Personal anecdotes mean nothing. But critical consensus on different sites put it as a well-liked episode. The added scenes were, in large part, hamfisted failures - I didn't mind the Moles Town town material, and I don't mind the Thenn being cannibals - but it appears that widely few cared about Sam and Gilly this season and "Why do I have to watch this" was a common sentiment. The Crasters sequences asked far more questions than they answered and failed to generate any dramatic tension for the final episode. In your opinion, maybe. But you can't say that they weren't spending enough time on characters at the while and then criticize them for spending time on characters like Sam and Gilly (who do become important later in the story). And anyone who didn't 'get' that the point of the Craster's Keep scene was to show Jon becoming a leader just wasn't paying attention. Seriously, it was pretty straight-forward. Karl TFL Tanner is pretty popular now for a show invention. Do you have a citation for the claim the Wall had more than any other this season? Line counts I have seen would suggest KL had far more than the wall. The Wall had over 100 minutes of screentime this season (I did a rough count of all of the clips throughout the season). That's probably second to KL, since they had part of an episode dedicated to the Purple Wedding. Still, that's a damn good clip. Line counts aren't going to mean much because KL will obviously have more talking than the Wall will (and the Wall has more fighting than talking). It was featured in all but 2 episodes this season (Episode 2 and 6) and has less characters in it. The Wall was not well covered - in line with the last 3 seasons. How can it not be when it has almost two episodes worth of material in just this season alone? What else did they need to add to 'cover it' better? I have heard this before, and I used to just accept it - but the numerous times this season that "Just have patience! They will do it later this season!" has been demonstrated to be false means that I will not just accept it out of hand any longer. A grumpy Drogon in Ep 1 and a human killing Drogon in Ep 10 do not support the claim they will be used as a device to explain the character arc Dany is going through. Well, why not gripe every time GRRM delays something? It's because he's writing a book series, and not everything is going to come up. They are halfway through the show...things aren't going to be necessary at the exact same time they were in the books. Edited June 19, 2014 by sj4iy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 See - even I can't accept this, Haldir. Let's forget the books for a moment and examine this as a show only scenario. If Tyrion is pissed with his father for sentencing him to death, he goes off to confront him about it? Let's forget we know what happens for the moment. Suppose Shae hadn't been in the bed? Suppose Tywin calls his guards. Heck, suppose Tywin actually has a guard in the room with him. Plus, isn't Tyrion putting Jaime into jeopardy too, for releasing him? Or are we thinking that Tyrion went there with the sole intention of killing his father? If he didn't - if he just went there to offer one of his usual snarky speeches, I think he would be acting foolishly. He is putting himself right back into the danger Jaime has just freed him from. Perhaps this was the intention from the show writers, however. To show he wasn't thinking straight, but even so....As I say - this was only a small thing in the end, but it did scream out at me for those few seconds when he was at the crossroads in the corridor. I've read the other explanations here from the posters, but it did come off as a bit contrived to me. (Gosh - I never thought I'd be a nitpicker :)) Plus, and I'm sticking to the show script, it was not Tywin who sentenced Tyrion to death - it was Tyrion. He demanded a trial by combat in order to screw his father's plan to get Jaime back as an heir and send Tyrion to the Wall. And Oberyn lost to the Mountain, which was to be expected. So, ultimately, Gods sentenced Tyrion to death, not Tywin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber W Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) This episode was an odd one for me; there were scenes I absolutely loved (Arya! Stannis! The Hound!), and then there were some scenes that were (in my humble opinion) the very worst of the show thus far (the Pirates of the Caribbean-esque skeletons, nobody giving a shit that Jojen died, and Saruman in the tree to name just one example). Are anyone else's unsullied friends starting to get really confused? I spent a lot of time explaining stuff this episode, including but not limited to: the skeletons ('The fuck are those? What do you mean wights, didn't those have blue eyes?'), Tyrion's motivation for killing Tywin, the change in Cersei and Jaime's relationship (although admittedly I couldn't really answer that one either), Bloodraven, Jon trying to kill Mance after him giving Jon his excellent reason for wanting to get past the wall (another one I couldn't really answer) - the list goes on. Normally I get about one question max. That being said, there were a few scenes that were simply brilliant, my absolute favourite being Brienne and Arya meeting, the ensuing fight (which I felt might just as well have been in the books; it's the kind of frustrating thing GRRM could've written), and finally the conversation between Arya and the Hound. The acting there was truly spectacular. 'The Children' playing over Arya's departure of Westeros gave me goosebumps, brilliant work by Djawadi. Edited June 19, 2014 by Amber W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 See - even I can't accept this, Haldir. Let's forget the books for a moment and examine this as a show only scenario. If Tyrion is pissed with his father for sentencing him to death, he goes off to confront him about it? Let's forget we know what happens for the moment. Suppose Shae hadn't been in the bed? Suppose Tywin calls his guards. Heck, suppose Tywin actually has a guard in the room with him. Plus, isn't Tyrion putting Jaime into jeopardy too, for releasing him? Or are we thinking that Tyrion went there with the sole intention of killing his father? If he didn't - if he just went there to offer one of his usual snarky speeches, I think he would be acting foolishly. He is putting himself right back into the danger Jaime has just freed him from. Perhaps this was the intention from the show writers, however. To show he wasn't thinking straight, but even so....As I say - this was only a small thing in the end, but it did scream out at me for those few seconds when he was at the crossroads in the corridor. I've read the other explanations here from the posters, but it did come off as a bit contrived to me. (Gosh - I never thought I'd be a nitpicker :)) Of course it was a foolish decision, and one made in the heat of the moment. Tyrion wasn't going through a rational thought process, weighing the pros and cons of both scenarios, when he made the decision to go to the Tower of the Hand; he was thinking "f*ck this asshole, this is my last chance to confront him once and for all!" We don't know what exactly he would have done if Shae hadn't been in the bed, but that's something that's left up to the viewer's interpretation (as is the exact nature of the relationship between Tywin and Shae). As someone has said, this makes less sense than the book's version of events, and I bitterly regret the exclusion of Tysha (in fact, in an adaptational sense this might be my least favorite episode of the series), but that does not equate to "it doesn't make sense at all in show canon." If there was no source material to compare the scene to, nobody would be questioning it. No Unsullied seemed to have a problem with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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