How would you rate episode 410?

[rmholt]

If you love the series what's your problem?

[Tolsimir]

Tyrion's impulsive, stubborn and doesn't think things through- his smart mouth of his is what got him into his predicament in the first place. He also has wanted nothing more than his father's approval his whole life. It makes sense.

Shae betrayed him, she's not freaking stupid.

He truly loved her- which, if you have to ask in the first place, must have not be obvious to you, despite the fact that we have seen them together in a loving relationship for several years now.

It does not make sense. Yes, he wanted his fathers approval his whole life, but he did not had the confidence to step up to him. When he asks for Casterly Rock and Tywin dissmises him, there was his chance to stand up to his father. Instead he walks away in silence. If he could not stand up to Tywin then, what happened that he would want to go see him when he has to escape? Nothing happened. The trial was not Tywin's fault at all, in fact Tywin would agree to send him to the Wall. If he wanted answers for the trial would he not want to see Cersei? There had to be something more that would send Tyrion over the edge and give him the will to confront his father. There was nothing.

And exactly because Shae loved Tyrion in the show, it made no sense that she tried to stab him. Unless of course she didn't, in which case Tyrion had no reason to kill Tywin.

It is all an ilogical mess.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Tolsimir

[sj4iy]

whats the point of defending a multi million company against people with no power that love the series?

Now how do you like them apples?

Wrong. The audience is ultimately the ones who decide whether a show survives or dies. Don't like it? Don't watch it. If enough people agree with you, then the show will be cancelled. That's how tv has always worked.

[boojam]

FYI

Wrapping up ratings from elsewhere.

Episode 10

IMDb

9519 votes weighted average vote of 9.7 / 10

Episode content seemed to have some influence on the voting, Episode 2 had ~16,000 votes, Ep.7 ~ 11,000 votes, Ep 8 ~ 14,000, Ep 0 ~ 10,000

Rest of the episodes ~ 6,000 ...

Not sure why since for a week counting all HBO airings and On Demand , I guess DVR viewings, HBO hit a record of 18.4 million for the season.

Note: As far as I can tell these are all USA figures , compiled by Nielsen.

As to say Canada (it's it on simultaneously?), or the UK (we used to get UK numbers, but I can't find them anymore), ... the rest of the world... we never seem to find ... except for Time Warner qualitative yearly report , but that will just be words like "Time-Warner's HBO big profit last year".

Rotten Tomatoes 100

By RT subjective judgment 36 out of 36 critics liked it.

Many of these reviews are just summaries , sometimes interspersed with a thumbs down or up about a certain sequence.

James Hibberd at ET seems , among these to give most lengthy summery with some analysis.(Hubbard seems to be a real fan of both the books and the show, and has the press connections to deliver interesting news items during a season, heck during the year.)

As always I recommend the episode overview and analysis on this web site, plus the reviews by Myles McNutt , for this episode he had two essays , well worth a read.

We don't ,I guess, have a overall season rating thread, but here are some of the others elsewhere.

IMDb Seasons 1,2,3 and 4: 598914 users voted a weighted average of 9.5 / 10. (I can't find an IMDb season by season score.)

Rotten Tomatoes ... season 4 ... critics average 98 , from 47 critics.

At RT 1664 'users' gave a 98 for season 4 (not sure where or if there individual 'user' ratings of episodes.)

At Metacritic there was a weighted average score of 94, 29 critics , but their summary of critics seems even more subjective than RT, they do have a 'user' score 838 Ratings gave it a 9.2.

So Season 4 critics and viewer (users?) all put it in above 90 at these 'media' sites.

Those who voted with their pocket books broke HBO's previous record for a series , so HBO-wise has their votes!

(I am not going to speak about the pirating...)

Have to see what next year brings, HBO may have topped-out , if not, that will be a first for HBO.

Observation:

The New York Times again started the season with a mostly 'down' review by Mike Hale , as he did for seasons 2 and 3.

Yet there were 10 episode reviews by Jeremy Egner , all a bit breezy but positive , but that's a NYT blog and not a printed feature, I don't think the NYT does a review of episodes of any show in print form.

Dave Itzkoff of the NYT and who I know is genre friendly gets in a handful of feature articles every season but no reviews, I wish they would let him do the season write ups.

O... and one more thing.

Besides George mentioning it, read enough reviews to find several instances of frustration about the 10 episode HBO limit..

Edited June 22, 2014 by boojam

[Frey Pentos]

It does not make sense. Yes, he wanted his fathers approval his whole life, but he did not had the confidence to step up to him. When he asks for Casterly Rock and Tywin dissmises him, there was his chance to stand up to his father. Instead he walks away in silence. If he could not stand up to Tywin then, what happened that he would want to go see him when he has to escape? Nothing happened.

Nothing happened? Joffrey was poisoned, Tyrion falsely accused of murder, his own father put him trial, people he thought of as friends desserted him or testified against him at the trial, the woman he loved turned against him, Oberyn had died for him, his brother unexpectedly rescued him. A lot happened. It's perfectly logical that he decided to confront his father. Tywin knew he was innocent yet was prepared to execute Tyrion. Tyrion wasn't being rational at the time. He was about to go into exile. Something snapped. It wasn't done as well as in the books but it was still compelling tv if you have an open mind and aren't looking to nitpick.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Frey Pentos

[Dolorous Gabe]

My question is why people think "Only Cat" is important in the first place.

My second would be why it's being discussed in an episode that has nothing to do with it.

It doesn't bother me all that much that they changed it, but I personally think it has to do with the subtext behind the words.

I think "your sister" conveys a sense of vindictiveness towards Lysa that doesn't actually exist. Lysa is really just a pawn in Littlefinger's overall plan but I don't think he hates her. "Only Cat" uses the name of the object of his affection so suggests he's really just thinking about her in the moment and has a kind of nonchalance towards Lysa (she's not part of the equation) in pushing her through the moon door like she wasn't even really there. Just my take on it.

It is a very very minor quibble that doesn't really matter though. Agree it shouldn't be discussed here but I guess the last episode of the season is always going to have people discuss the season as a whole.

[Tolsimir]

Nothing happened? Joffrey was poisoned, Tyrion falsely accused of murder, his own father put him trial, people he thought of as friends desserted him or testified against him at the trial, the woman he loved turned against him, Oberyn had died for him, his brother unexpectedly rescued him. A lot happened. It's perfectly logical that he decided to confront his father. Tywin knew he was innocent yet was prepared to execute Tyrion. Tyrion wasn't being rational at the time. He was about to go into exile. Something snapped. It wasn't done as well as in the books but it was still compelling tv if you have an open mind and aren't looking to nitpick.

Have you even read my post? At the trial Tywin was actually on Tyrion's side (because of Jaime, but still). Why did he not seek out the people who gave false testimonies or the person behind all of this, Cersei? Why Tywin? He had no reason for it. And this is not a nitpick, it is a glaring flaw of the series.

[iliasb]

Here I thought they couldn't do worse than the last episode, and yet they managed to outdo themselves. Except for Stannis, absolute garbage. D&D really can't keep it together when they don't stick to the source material.

Pissed because you read the books but the series didn't turn out the same? Well, then it's hypocrite of you to call this ep garbage based on this. D&D consult GRRM everytime so it was not something that way of the books. Good ep. and not at all pissed :)

.

[Metopheles]

Wrong. The audience is ultimately the ones who decide whether a show survives or dies. Don't like it? Don't watch it. If enough people agree with you, then the show will be cancelled. That's how tv has always worked.

Missed my point or didn't read my argument.

[I am a Dragon]

Pissed because you read the books but the series didn't turn out the same? Well, then it's hypocrite of you to call this ep garbage based on this. D&D consult GRRM everytime

Do they, though? Also, that's not what hypocrisy means.

[Modesty Lannister]

Wrong. The audience is ultimately the ones who decide whether a show survives or dies. Don't like it? Don't watch it. If enough people agree with you, then the show will be cancelled. That's how tv has always worked.

FYI, this is thread where we discuss whether we liked a GoT episode and if not why. You are perfectly entitled to adore each episode with or without any arguments. What you are not entitled to do is to argue endlessly against people who find the show lacking. Respect other people's opinions. And also FYI, D&D do check this forum, so fans do and should state their different opinions in hope that the producers/writers will take some suggestions on board.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Modesty Lannister

[Mr Fixit]

D&D do check this forum

Once upon a time, yeah. Nowadays, unlikely.

And even if they do, what would D&D hope to get out of that endeavour except to read posts by people who wish plague on both their houses? And an especially virulent strain of ebola as well, if and when applicable.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Mr Fixit

[sj4iy]

FYI, this is thread where we discuss whether we liked a GoT episode and if not why. You are perfectly entitled to adore each episode with or without any arguments. What you are not entitled to do is to argue endlessly against people who find the show lacking. Respect other people's opinions. And also FYI, D&D do check this forum, so fans do and should state their different opinions in hope that the producers/writers will take some suggestions on board.

They don't, and they've explicitly said they stopped reading it a while back.

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/05/06/david-benioff-dan-weiss-pact-read-online-comments/

"Benioff says, “We both made this pact that we were going to stop looking at stuff online because you can go into the rabbit hole and get lost in this world of online Thrones commentary if you’re not careful. We both felt a lot saner after we stopped doing that.”

And even if they did, what have I done wrong? I'm simply disagreeing with someone else's opinion, and I have not been disrespectful about it in the slightest. Tell me how I've "endlessly argued" or "disrespected anyone's feelings", because I'm honestly confused. This isn't the nitpick thread, and we were talking about the entire season (and series) at one point. I pointed out that televisions shows are cancelled when people stop watching. Viewers have power, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. Of course, there's always the fact that maybe someone just doesn't like something that a bunch of other people do like, but they still lose nothing by not watching it. I hate The Big Bang Theory, but obviously, more people like it than I do. But if enough people stop watching, it will be cancelled.

Edited June 22, 2014 by sj4iy

[sj4iy]

<snip>

*applause*

Awesome job compiling all of those stats, btw. Really interesting to see how people are worried about the 10-episode limit...I think we'll see if it really becomes a problem next season when they recombine (yay) the next two books.

Edited June 22, 2014 by sj4iy

[mr.mop]

Have you even read my post? At the trial Tywin was actually on Tyrion's side (because of Jaime, but still). Why did he not seek out the people who gave false testimonies or the person behind all of this, Cersei? Why Tywin? He had no reason for it. And this is not a nitpick, it is a glaring flaw of the series.

You completely misread that whole sequence. Tywin was never on Tyrion's side. To the extent he wanted Tyrion to live, it was only to get Jaimie to give up being in the Kingsguard, and this is important: that only happens if Tyrion is found guilty. If Tyrion is found innocent, there is no need to deal with Jaimie and let Tyrion take the black. So Tywin always wanted Tyrion guilty, and always wanted Tyrion gone, the only question was whether he'd settle for Tyrion in a black cloak or if he would insist on Tyrion's head.

So no, Tywin was not, in any way, shape, or form, on Tyrion's side.

No think about where Tyrion stood at that moment, Tysha or no. Even though he was escaping with his life, he had just said goodbye to Jaimie forever, who, as far as he could tell, is the only person who ever loved him. He was looking at the rest of his life without money (after being able to buy his way into or out of anything for his entire life), on the run, a fugitive with nothing but a bounty on his head. Never to see his brother or anyone else he likes or loves ever again. Because his father plotted with his sister to arrange for him to get a death sentence for a crime he didn't commit, and Tywin knew it.

Yeah, I'd say there's plenty of reason for Tyrion to be feeling desperate, emotional, irrational, and looking at probably his last chance ever to confront his father, even without Tysha.

[FalseKnight]

I am still waiting for someone who gave the show a 9 or 10 to explain to me why Tyrion went up the ladder to Tywin. Or why Shae tried to knife him on sight. Or why he would go mad when someone insulted Shae, the whore who betrayed him and tried to kill him.

Emotions make people do strange things. Who can say what he should or shouldn't feel. They didn't need to justify why he did those things.

[Modesty Lannister]

Once upon a time, yeah. Nowadays, unlikely.

And even if they do, what would D&D hope to get out of that endeavour except to read posts by people who wish plague on both their houses? And an especially virulent strain of ebola as well, if and when applicable.

Sorry, but you are behaving like your avatar Duffy Duck. Arguing endlessly for argument's sake is not my thing.

[mr.mop]

Emotions make people do strange things. Who can say what he should or shouldn't feel. They didn't need to justify why he did those things.

1- Why Tyrion goes up the stairs: because it's probably his last chance ever to confront his father, who has at that point tried to kill him and at the very least ruined his life permanently.

2 - Why Shae lunges at him with a knife: for the same reason she testifies against him at the trial. She wants him dead, she hates him for what she sees as multiple betrayals. He stayed at King's Landing when he could've left with her, married Sansa as a result, and then sent her away while calling her a whore. As a viewer we know he always loved her and had her interests at heart, but she was a wounded lover feeling betrayed several times over and had come to hate him.

These things aren't hard to see if you actually watch the show, rather than let yourself get caught up in the various ways the show deviates from the books

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Seriously, reading through these rating of the episodes threads is becoming a real chore.

Let's face it, statistically a great episode should be around 7-9 and an absolutely perfect one ala Blackwater should be 10. Equally even the worst episode should be around 3-4, with probably no episodes deserving a complete 1 because of the strength of the source material.

However, as always, what the hell is with all the 10/10 'yay this is super perfect in everyway!' crowd? If you call that finale a 10/10 your ability to discern good television from average or subpar television is seriously open to question.

You could say 'well, each to their own' and although you wouldn't be wrong, I just feel I have to say to those people who think this is perfect ... really?

How is that episode perfect and without a single flaw? Not a single one? Please enlighten me because I actually want to know?

What I saw instead was a T.V show that has completely forgotten the source material on which its based. Just to remphasise, all the writers have to do is take a solid existing story and translate it reasonably faithfully onto screen ... that's it.

Instead they feel they have to constantly change things that don't need changing. For example:

1. How ... the .. fuck ... did the Hound and Arya just show up at the Vale and then just leave? Didn't LF hear about it? How about Sansa? How about anyone?

2. Brienne vs The Hound ... yeah that's awesome, its also good to know that, all in, the episode spent more time on that whole sequence that the Mountain vs Red Viper. So an event that never should have taken place gets preferential treatment for one of the absolute key moments in the entire series.

3. We get it, people like Tyrion, I personally never have liked him as a character (love his POV's though) but why can't he possibly ever have even the slightest shade of grey in the T.V show. Shae of course would have to straight up stab him, I mean thats completely in line with her character, and everything that has preceded with her developement since season two ... oh wait, no it wasn't.

4. The writers haven't a fucking clue about Stannis, or how to work with his storyline.

5. The writers of the T.V show consistently miss the cool little things in the books and exchange them for Podricks magic penis adventures, burbing wenches, the relationship between a eunach and a girl, stories about mentally handicapped people crushing beatles and all the other crap filler these writers invent off the tops of their heads. GRRM is a good solid writer, nobody is saying he is Shakespeare, but he is good at what he does, and is good with his characters. So why all the unecessary changing things?

So many characters on the T.V show are so far from their book counterparts in terms of developement, that without prior knowledge of the books, you are literally in another world.

But back to my point; differing opinions aside, how is that a 10/10 best end of the series ever? I genuinely want to know, how people can call that (at best) average episode perfect?

Oh and I haven't even mentioned that whole Bran travesty ... shudder.

Exactly.

[FalseKnight]

1- Why Tyrion goes up the stairs: because it's probably his last chance ever to confront his father, who has at that point tried to kill him and at the very least ruined his life permanently.

2 - Why Shae lunges at him with a knife: for the same reason she testifies against him at the trial. She wants him dead, she hates him for what she sees as multiple betrayals. He stayed at King's Landing when he could've left with her, married Sansa as a result, and then sent her away while calling her a whore. As a viewer we know he always loved her and had her interests at heart, but she was a wounded lover feeling betrayed several times over and had come to hate him.

These things aren't hard to see if you actually watch the show, rather than let yourself get caught up in the various ways the show deviates from the books

Agreed but this place a record of holding the show to an impossible level of scrutiny while giving every flaw in the books a pass.