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How would you rate episode 410?


Ran
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How would you rate episode 410?  

1,081 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

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Sorry, but I am too lazy to discuss this.

But hey, upside for you: The show won't do a bisexual Jon Snow anyway. I mean..they could lose ratings.

Downside for every real book fan: Story will be more boring than it already was, because they take away all the subtle parts of it.

Upside for me: One more reason to skip the show, because I had it with "change".

Lazy or not, there's absolutely no way Jon is in live with Satin. We can see his thoughts and everything he does, remember? He thinks about Ygritte quite a lot. He thinks about Val a little. He doesn't think anything at all about Satin. At all. There's not even the slightest hint.

The show won't make Jon bisexual because he's not bisexual. They obviously don't have a problem with it, considering Oberyn was the most beloved character this past season. But Jon isn't even CLOSE to being bisexual.

Edited by sj4iy
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Lazy or not, there's absolutely no way Jon is in live with Satin. We can see his thoughts and everything he does, remember? He thinks about Ygritte quite a lot. He thinks about Val a little. He doesn't think anything at all about Satin. At all. There's not even the slightest hint.

The show won't make Jon bisexual because he's not bisexual. They obviously don't have a problem with it, considering Oberyn was the most beloved character this past season. But Jon isn't even CLOSE to being bisexual.

thread.

there are dozens of threads about this. Go there. Read there. (and later come and apologize to me, but this is optional)

This thread is about e410

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thread.

there are dozens of threads about this. Go there. Read there. (and later come and apologize to me, but this is optional)

This thread is about e410

Uh, you brought it up.

And I don't have to read dozens of threads, I've read the books several times and this isn't exactly a mystery like "Who Are Jon's Parents?" This is "Does Jon Love His Steward?" and the only clues we need are Jon's own chapters. None of which ever once mention that Jon has any sort of feelings of love for anyone other than Ygritte or any attraction to anyone other than Val.

I will not apologize for not jumping the shark to believe something so incredibly crackpot.

Edited by sj4iy
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I am fucking livid, I originally got into the TV series and then the books, and the climax of this episode was the moment I was most looking forward to of any of the written content so far. This whole season wasted time with inexplicable monologues about beetles that served no purpose other than to push the Oberyon-Mountain fight into a rushed last few minutes of the episode, and then they did the same with the finale. So much time was wasted on dumb shit like that, and yet they thought they would be alright to cut the Tysha reveal with Jaime and Tyrion? Jaime telling Tyrion the truth about Tysha was his entire motivation for going to the tower of the hand to confront Tywin, instead he went there for literally no reason. Some say it was enough that Tywin sentenced him to death, you're wrong if you believe this, here is why; Tyrion was always satisfied to defeat Tywin with his mind, and would've, in the TV series of events, have seen escaping his execution and outwitting his father's plans as a victory enough. I don't care about LSH's lack of presence, whatever, introduce her in the next season, I don't care, it doesn't matter, but D&D completely changing the series of events in King's Landing the night of the escape I will never understand.



I guess I'll give it a 1, but even that makes me sick for giving this too much credit.


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The entire non-book scene with Arya, the Hound, Brienne and Pod was fantastic. Hated the idea of that fight, loved the execution. The Hound was a scene stealer all year, imo, from the "eat all the chickens" scene all the way to his death. His death trumped Tywin's... something I'd never have expected.

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Watched it in full for a second time. Independently it's a nine... but if I set a ten as what it would have been with a LSH reveal, it's a low eight.

Rating it like that doesn't make sense. Episodes should be rated by the quality of what was in, not be omissions.

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sj, about your defense of Craster's Keep this season... Really gonna have to disagree.



It's not that I don't like that story. It's obviously a big deviation, but I did enjoy it at face value, and it had the same "they're close, but miss each other barely" feel that the books did when Jon left the wildlings. But I don't think it helps Jon's character become LC better than the book does at all. It was there as filler so they didn't have to do the battle at Castle Black right away, because if you recall, the battle is not that far apart from when Jon returns. The battle is what makes Jon able to be elected, not a filler expedition to kill like ten deserters. to me it just feels like an artificial effort to do what you said, transition his character, because of them deciding to make the battle start so much later than in the books. It really left them stalling for material at the Wall. I guess there's nothing wrong with delaying the battle, but their filler really just feels like too little too late to build up Jon after three seasons of him on the backburner, as you said.


Edited by LordStoneheart
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sj, about your defense of Craster's Keep this season... Really gonna have to disagree.

It's not that I don't like that story. It's obviously a big deviation, but I did enjoy it at face value, and it had the same "they're close, but miss each other barely" feel that the books did when Jon left the wildlings. But I don't think it helps Jon's character become LC better than the book does at all. It was there as filler so they didn't have to do the battle at Castle Black right away, because if you recall, the battle is not that far apart from when Jon returns. The battle is what makes Jon able to be elected, not a filler expedition to kill like ten deserters. to me it just feels like an artificial effort to do what you said, transition his character, because of them deciding to make the battle start so much later than in the books. It really left them stalling for material at the Wall. I guess there's nothing wrong with delaying the battle, but their filler really just feels like too little too late to build up Jon after three seasons of him on the backburner, as you said.

It's not the reason he's made LC, though...it's the reason they turn to him in the big battle. In the books, there's literally no reason for Noye to put him in charge or for the others to follow him. Here, it makes sense because he's led a successful mission to CK and killed the mutineers...he's also been training the men and warning them for weeks what would happen. They have every reason to trust him and turn to him in a situation like that.

I think the books do some things better, but this was one of those times that I felt the show got it right over the book.

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How is it not the reason? If he hadn't led the battle he wouldn't have the respect of the others. If he had shown up after the battle (assuming it's won) it would look a lot different to the NW. I think you're undercutting the way the LC election went. It was over a series of chapters, not just "poof! he's Lord Commander!"



I do agree that the show can (rarely) do things better (Harrenhal plot discounting Arya/Twin, and Locke/Jaime was better IMO), for that matter. Next season, though, I think they have real potential to do a lot of things better, but if there's no Lady Stoneheart there's no LordStoneheart with the show. :D


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How is it not the reason? If he hadn't led the battle he wouldn't have the respect of the others. If he had shown up after the battle (assuming it's won) it would look a lot different to the NW. I think you're undercutting the way the LC election went. It was over a series of chapters, not just "poof! he's Lord Commander!"

I do agree that the show can (rarely) do things better (Harrenhal plot discounting Arya/Twin, and Locke/Jaime was better IMO), for that matter. Next season, though, I think they have real potential to do a lot of things better, but if there's no Lady Stoneheart there's no LordStoneheart with the show. :D

To me, it was most definitely "poof! He's LC!" in the books. And the battle for CB and the Wall are my favorite chapters...but I can't deny that Jon being put in command made no sense. Even Jon himsf questions why Noye does it, despite his bad injury that makes him nearly unable to walk, his youth, inexperience, and questions about his loyalty ("he had made as many enemies as he had friends"). Then he's somehow elected by 2/3rds of the vote over men with more experience, age and support? It makes no sense under scrutiny. Even Jon thinks it's a joke when he's submitted as a candidate.

I don't expect everything to be realistic about the books, but I immediately saw that the show was trying to make it more believable by lengthening the storyline and adding things rather than shoehorn the "oh, he's LC!" into the story. I still enjoy both versions, but I think the show did it better. My only real problems with the show version were Locke and the senseless slaughter of Molestown, but WotW was so awesome they were easy to forgive.

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therein lies the disagreement... I don't find anything wrong with the election after the battle. Plus, it is known that Jon was steward to the last one. Agree to disagree? Plus, WotW was terrible for me. Not visually but story and execution-wise. The whole Wall story in general is, which is a shame because I love it in the books.


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The Craster's keep arc was great and completely necessary! After the completely not BS reason to go and kill the mutineers, Jon finally got the chance to show his skill as a leader! He led his men to the mutineers in the middle of the night, and instead of slitting their throats while they were sleeping he ran into them with an epic battle-cry. His men were so inspired by his manliness that they finally started respecting him as a leader, despite the loss of many lives, which could easily have been avoided. The gain of getting another combat scene and showing what a bad-ass Jon can be completely outweighed the dead brothers and was MUCH more realistic than what happened in the books, right?


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The show should've kept Coldhands. Bran could've warged Summer, and observed the slaughter from a distance. CH frees Ghost, follows Summer back to Bran and show's them the way to BR. Locke could've been left in the Riverlands with Frey forces, and been one of the ones the BWB/SH hangs either S4, or in S5. Not a fan of Karl Tanner, or his arc this season. That scene he had with Meera was extremely stupid.


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