Ruin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) I wouldn't say that the entire story was ruined, perhaps limited? I can see your point, and the homages/brothel/filler/whateverthehellscenes really did eat up screen time that could've been put to better use. I guess I'm one of those fools that thinks we'll see Stoney next season, perhaps even with her own filler scenes, lol. In S2 a lot of people thought Ramsay had been cut...Jojen and Meera entered a bit later in the story...Jorah's exile was pushed a little back, and who knows what the hell is going to happen in Dorne, lol. *Possible Spoilers* One of the deviations had me thinking...how many troops does ShowStannis possess now? With his stop in Braavos, and with the Davos making it rain scene with Sala...did the show address J. Massey's task in TWOW? Are we to assume that he succeeded, or will Stannis later search to hire more swords from Essos. I know in an episode this season Davos suggests hiring the Golden Company, and Stannis shrugs him off, but that contradicts his thoughts later on in TWOW...even suggesting that J. Mass go look for them...oh the irony... And will ShowStan hook up with the Northern mountain clans...or will that just be casually mentioned in a filler scene...possibly like the one below... Davos, "Your Grace, several mountain clans have come to pledge their swords..."ShowStannis, "Yes...yes...make sure they know how to kneel properly."Mel, "They don't...I've seen it my fires."*Cue Evil Stannis Music*ShowStannis grinds his teeth.Davos, "Your Grace, you are the rightful King..."*Selyse enters scene* Its FRIGGIN COLD HERE....*Selyse leaves*ShowStannis, "We're not leaving until they kneel."Mel, "If you burn someone perhaps they may get the hint..."Davos, "Your Grace...SHE'S EVIL!"*Mel looking into the fire* "Again Davos?"*Davos fails to stab Mel a second time"ShowStannis, "You know the drill Davos."*Shireen enters scene* "I'm bored...do we get Patchface this season...or do I have to teach someone else how to read?" Edited July 12, 2014 by Lord Commander Thrawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 book Oberyn Martell:LEGENDARY fighter and poisoner, personification of a snake, dangerous.Sidenote: Loves lovemaking and possibly bisexual. show Oberyn Martell:Sex addict. Literally fucks everything that he sees. Somehow a Robert in that matter. Drinks, fucks and has not fought in the last months.Unable to make a sentence without a sexual reference.Childish and like a boy in puberty. A zero in politics and intrigue.Oh, he can fight a bit, too. Oberyn Martell is Megan Fox in Transformers.Brings nothing to the story whatsoever and only serves as speaking sex doll. But as Meg got her one non sexual or misogynistic thing, the ability of repairing muscle cars, Oberyn can fight. Don't get me wrong, I loved the introduction of Oberyn in the first episode, but that should have been the only sex scene. He more or less had only sex scenes.Even Ros, the whore, has less sex scenes than him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 book Oberyn Martell: LEGENDARY fighter and poisoner, personification of a snake, dangerous. Sidenote: Loves lovemaking and possibly bisexual. show Oberyn Martell: Sex addict. Literally fucks everything that he sees. Somehow a Robert in that matter. Drinks, fucks and has not fought in the last months. Unable to make a sentence without a sexual reference. Childish and like a boy in puberty. A zero in politics and intrigue. Oh, he can fight a bit, too. Oberyn Martell is Megan Fox in Transformers. Brings nothing to the story whatsoever and only serves as speaking sex doll. But as Meg got her one non sexual or misogynistic thing, the ability of repairing muscle cars, Oberyn can fight. Don't get me wrong, I loved the introduction of Oberyn in the first episode, but that should have been the only sex scene. He more or less had only sex scenes. Even Ros, the whore, has less sex scenes than him. I was surprised he wasn't shagging some chick doggy-style while he spoke with Tyrion in his cell.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I was surprised he wasn't shagging some chick doggy-style while he spoke with Tyrion in his cell.... But the guards went missing after their meeting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 book Oberyn Martell: > show Oberyn Martell: I am most positive the problem with showOberyn is that in the books he is honestly not that big of a character. I think fans have built him up to be more than the book gave. He was there for the trial and trial by combat, but really didn't do much else. The show, running with the fan hype, wanted to make him "big" character... but what the hell was he supposed to do? What things did they know about Oberyn besides the two trials? hmm.... it's HBO so.... SEX!!! FUCKING! ORGIES! SEX SEX SEXY SEX!! BONER BONER UTERUS FALLOPIAN!!! If there's one criticism of the show that no one can dispute it's that there is too much superfluous sex, no matter the character, no matter the context. I did enjoy Oberyn on screen, but to say they turned him up to 11 is an understatement. They bombarded us in the face with Oberyn's "spear" before actually showing us his fight. I suppose it would have been a little bit of a spoiler showing him fighting before hand but there were much better ways to give Oberyn screen time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I am most positive the problem with showOberyn is that in the books he is honestly not that big of a character. I think fans have built him up to be more than the book gave. He was there for the trial and trial by combat, but really didn't do much else. The show, running with the fan hype, wanted to make him "big" character... but what the hell was he supposed to do? What things did they know about Oberyn besides the two trials? hmm.... it's HBO so.... SEX!!! FUCKING! ORGIES! SEX SEX SEXY SEX!! BONER BONER UTERUS FALLOPIAN!!! If there's one criticism of the show that no one can dispute it's that there is too much superfluous sex, no matter the character, no matter the context. I did enjoy Oberyn on screen, but to say they turned him up to 11 is an understatement. They bombarded us in the face with Oberyn's "spear" before actually showing us his fight. I suppose it would have been a little bit of a spoiler showing him fighting before hand but there were much better ways to give Oberyn screen time. They kinda killed all the mystery around him. We get not much info in the books about him. Just basics. And then that he is beloved by the dornish. I can't really see how he is loved and respected by the dornish in the show version, as he is just a Charlie Sheen kinda guy. Funny dialogue and has his other talents, but that's it. Oh, and he runs around in the same outfit the entire season(basically). But they missed the whole legendary fighter thing, for what the book characters respect him. "I saw the Unsullied in action" "Oh, did you? Tell us more please!!" "They are bad in the bed" O.o Oberyn =/= Oberyn in the show. two different characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 They also missed how Oberyn was there to poison Tywin....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Hyperbole abounds. Show Oberyn was awesome...much more interesting than he was in the books. His sex scenes didn't actually have much sex in them at all, for all of the complaining. And they ended about other things. But he had some amazing scenes such as his talk with Tyrion in the cell, his talk about his daughters with Cersei and his talk about bastards at the Red Wedding...and oh look, those didn't involve sex.He was the most likable character this season because he's a wild card that shook up everything in KL. He wasn't nearly that cool in the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted July 13, 2014 Author Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) They also missed how Oberyn was there to poison Tywin....... He wasn't. Show Oberyn was awesome...much more interesting than he was in the books. There's nothing in the show that isn't really from the books, so how could he be "more interesting"? Unless you just mean that seeing an actor on the screen works better for you than letting your imagination tackle words on the page? Maybe, can't speak to that. If anything, they reduced him a bit by not digging into his background more. Things like his trying to raise Dorne in rebellion, his various deeds that won him his notoriety, his amicable relation to Willas Tyrell that Mace and Olenna don't at all care for... that fleshes out the character quite well. They strip him down to a rather narrower focus, and then bring in a little bit of the AFfC/ADwD posthumous details which are, in the end, actually details from the books. That said, Pedro Pascal did a very fine job, and his episode 7 scene is tremendous. Edited July 13, 2014 by Rantonio Valencia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 He wasn't. There's nothing in the show that isn't really from the books, so how could he be "more interesting"? Unless you just mean that seeing an actor on the screen works better for you than letting your imagination tackle words on the page? Maybe, can't speak to that. Yes, because insulting people automatically proves one's point. My imagination is just fine, thanks- but I can't read what's not there. There are quite a few differences between show-Oberyn and book-Oberyn that make show-Oberyn a more interesting character. Also, your assertion that everything in the show is from the books is incorrect. Where, in the books, did Oberyn casually walk up to someone singing the Rains of Castamere and stab him in the wrist? Or be disgusted by the antics of Joffrey at the Red Wedding, as well as trade shots with Cersei and Tywin about Myrcella's treatment in Dorne? Or have a talk with Varys about Essos? No, book-Oberyn was a much more fleshed-out character than the book and wasn't reduced at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 How was show Oberyn any interesting?I mean he was indeed a perfect played character that always was in character, not really saying he was the character grrm described, but what we were presented, he perfectly played. But we know all about him. No mysteries or hinted stories or tongue in cheek stuff or anything. He was the most open guy in the show so far. Ask him for a secret, he answers you. He doesn't just evade the thing or something. He straight out tells you.Boring. And I think this season's most likable character was Olenna for killing the most hated character...and openly admitting it...yawn. It was good. This is not a critique because of acting or writing, both were done great in the scene, but still....tactless.A show that builds on mystery doesn't work when you just reveal the mystery. There is a point in having fans riddle about who killed Joffrey 10 years after the book came out.And there is a reason why book readers love Oberyn Martell, a guy with 10 lines in the books.MYSTERY and unanswered stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruin Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Just because the show sexually supercharged Oberyn doesn't mean he's a completely different character...and the dude did have eight daughters, so you can't be that bent out of shape with ShowOberyn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Just because the show sexually supercharged Oberyn doesn't mean he's a completely different character...and the dude did have eight daughters, so you can't be that bent out of shape with ShowOberyn. Sure, Shae was also the same character, cause she slept with Tyrion. cough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruin Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I said Oberyn...I said nothing about Shae. I agree with you about Shae. ShowOberyn was fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I was fine with the change of Shae, until S4. But only because s4 made no fucking sense in regards of shae and continuity.s4 made nowhere sense when it came to character continuity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Hyperbole abounds. Show Oberyn was awesome...much more interesting than he was in the books. His sex scenes didn't actually have much sex in them at all, for all of the complaining. And they ended about other things. But he had some amazing scenes such as his talk with Tyrion in the cell, his talk about his daughters with Cersei and his talk about bastards at the Red Wedding...and oh look, those didn't involve sex.He was the most likable character this season because he's a wild card that shook up everything in KL. He wasn't nearly that cool in the books. As I said above, the problem fans are finding with him is that the subtly of his character is lost in favor of bombarding the viewer with who Oberyn is. That's how you know he's a wild card. Because the writers are slapping the viewers in the face with just how wild and different the new face is. He might as well have worn cards as his sigil and a sign that says "I am a wild card." The show is not good with subtlety. It's the same with Renly and Loras. They take the one aspect of their characters they need, overload it, and usually forgo all other aspects. Oberyn is the same in the books, he's just more subtle and reserved (as in, not obviously there to threaten the Lannister.) How do you reconcile his wedding talk with Cersei and Tywin in episode two with his later chat with Cersei? Honest question, because it really makes no sense to me. Plus, his brothel talk with Tywin (another straight disregard with who Tywin from the books is) seems to suggest he believes Tywin about not giving Gregor the order, yet when he fights Gregor he shouts "who gave you the order?" and points directly at Tywin. He still blames Tywin, which makes that brothel scene... well, filler. As far as the sex goes, I think the showrunners made it very clear that they wanted Oberyn as a sex character first, and everything else secondary. Their quotes before season four make that clear. Yes, because insulting people automatically proves one's point. My imagination is just fine, thanks- but I can't read what's not there. There are quite a few differences between show-Oberyn and book-Oberyn that make show-Oberyn a more interesting character.Also, your assertion that everything in the show is from the books is incorrect. Where, in the books, did Oberyn casually walk up to someone singing the Rains of Castamere and stab him in the wrist? Or be disgusted by the antics of Joffrey at the Red Wedding, as well as trade shots with Cersei and Tywin about Myrcella's treatment in Dorne? Or have a talk with Varys about Essos?No, book-Oberyn was a much more fleshed-out character than the book and wasn't reduced at all. I saw no insult there. Visually speaking, Oberyn is a "much more interesting character" because again, the showrunners do not do subtle. He did not mean scene-by-scene everything was in the books, he meant the persona was there, in a much more subtle way that didn't necessarily need to attack the reader to convey. There is a reason the character has achieved that level of popularity in the books even though not being so abrasive and obvious in the show. I don't doubt your reading abilities but to say it's not there is a disservice to the way these characters are written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I saw no insult there. Visually speaking, Oberyn is a "much more interesting character" because again, the showrunners do not do subtle. He did not mean scene-by-scene everything was in the books, he meant the persona was there, in a much more subtle way that didn't necessarily need to attack the reader to convey. There is a reason the character has achieved that level of popularity in the books even though not being so abrasive and obvious in the show. I don't doubt your reading abilities but to say it's not there is a disservice to the way these characters are written. "Unless you just mean that seeing an actor on screen works better for you than letting your imagination tackle the words on the page? Maybe, can't speak to that." That's an insult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 "Unless you just mean that seeing an actor on screen works better for you than letting your imagination tackle the words on the page? Maybe, can't speak to that." That's an insult.Not seeing it. Some people are more just visually inclined than written media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted July 14, 2014 Author Share Posted July 14, 2014 Indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pies Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Show-Oberyn, is, without a doubt, the better character. More interesting and more fleshed-out. Also, while being likable doesn't make one a better or worse character, it really helped here, imo, just because everything is so grim all the time that it just gets a little exasperating. There's literally no one important out there who's genuinely likable as well as powerful and having Oberyn be that brought a breath of fresh air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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