Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

How would you rate episode 410?

How would you rate episode 410?  

1,079 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      60
    • 2
      21
    • 3
      23
    • 4
      27
    • 5
      62
    • 6
      76
    • 7
      122
    • 8
      179
    • 9
      248
    • 10
      259


Recommended Posts

If we take the Star Trek reference here: Into Darkness can hardly be called an adaptation of Wrath of Khan. It has certain plot points that are the same, and made a terrific story out of it, but it is more or less a horrible adaptation. (Even if it is a great film, but the show didn't look great recently)

Into Darkness was inspired in part by Wrath of Khan, but it was a very weak movie. It is essentially one giant chain of loosely linked setpieces that are supposed to look "cool" with half-baked allegories and shallow moralising sprinkled all over it (drones! extrajudicial killings! security vs freedom!) because Trek has to be topical, I guess. I truly thought it was an audio-visual nightmare of the highest order.

As for GoT, of course it's an adaptation, and a pretty faithful one at that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't understand the Jaime Cersei reconciliation either, especially being that the wedge driven between them has already taken place. It just seems like they are going to have to waste time creating this rift between them all over again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be fine with a carbon copy, but really I just want it to be consistent with how they change it. When they change it, they should take the change into consideration further down the line. My main problem with the show is that they've changed things and then taken the same route with characters whose motivations and personality don't completely match up.

I have argued what they should have done is change it so Shae doesn't give her testimony against Tyrion, is caught before she makes the ship and hanged by Tywin as he promised he would. If their love was truly real as the show had us believe, Tyrion might then have sought vengeance for the killing of the Shae he loved.

That would have worked wonderfully. 100 times more emotional than the head-scratch-inducing thing they did in ep 10.

I've always found Tyrion and Shae's mushy scenes boring, but I'd really had felt for both of them, if the show would have done the above suggested version.

But since Martin has mentioned that he's going to reveal more about that scene (http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/), I guess the show had to put all the same characters in the same scene although they removed the motivations.

Fact is that the book version, while leaving question open, makes sense, the TV version doesn't. The TV version very often leaves the viewers supposing that more will be elaborate in a future ep or season.... Didn't happen yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't understand the Jaime Cersei reconciliation either, especially being that the wedge driven between them has already taken place. It just seems like they are going to have to waste time creating this rift between them all over again.

Shouldn't be too difficult when Cersei figures out Jaimie helped Tyrion escape.

I don't have much of a problem with Shae either, they were building her up as jealous of Sansa and simply not understanding of why Tyrion wanted her out of Kings Landing for awhile, and the last we saw of her before the trial, Tyrion got rid of her by calling her a whore and having her believe it. Is it really hard to imagine a scorned lover "getting back" at someone in the ways Shae did? People sleep with their ex's friends, brothers, whatever, all the time.

Edited by mr.mop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assume we can both agree that you can't just film the books, page for page, so what would you be cutting out and changing to make the story fit into 10 50 minute episodes?

No one expects that, but this is not filming the books. This is writing your own stories using GRRM's characters. That's fan fiction by definition. I wouldn't have any problem with it if the snow was advertised as "loosely based on ..." rather than "adaptation of..." First season was an adaptation, even seasons 2 and 3, but season 4 went its own way and it's sad to watch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Admittedly, I'm pretty picky about what I watch, but that's probably the worst television scene I've seen in years...I mean, did you actually need to link to a video of somebody *ss-raping George Orwell's corpse while trying to suck some life back into his d*ck?

Is there a point to this verbosity of yours? I'd say it's severely misplaced and, dare I say, wasted.

Edited by Mr Fixit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Into Darkness was inspired in part by Wrath of Khan, but it was a very weak movie. It is essentially one giant chain of loosely linked setpieces that are supposed to look "cool" with half-baked allegories and shallow moralising sprinkled all over it (drones! extrajudicial killings! security vs freedom!) because Trek has to be topical, I guess. I truly thought it was an audio-visual nightmare of the highest order.

As for GoT, of course it's an adaptation, and a pretty faithful one at that.

I think the comparison of Khan and Darkness in relation to GOT S3 & 4 and ASOS is pretty fitting.

Both loose adaptations...or medias that now only used themes and characters and certain plot lines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the comparison of Khan and Darkness in relation to GOT S3 & 4 and ASOS is pretty fitting.

I can't agree with that assessment. For all the deviations, GoT still hits all the major, and many minor, beats of the books. Into Darkness and Wrath of Khan have absolutely nothing in common except the most superficial of homages: Khan himself (though he's nothing like Montalban's version) and... nothing else really. Maybe the inversion of sacrifices to save the Enterprise? A sequence so bad and completely undone 10 minutes later by Khan's magical blood.

Edited by Mr Fixit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't agree with that assessment. For all the deviations, GoT still hits all the major, and many minor, beats of the books. Into Darkness and Wrath of Khan have absolutely nothing in common except the most superficial of homages: Khan himself (though he's nothing like Montalban's version) and... nothing else really. Maybe the inversion of sacrifices to save the Enterprise? A sequence so bad and completely undone 10 minutes later by Khan's magical blood.

You really don't see the similarities?

They are basically the same. Kinda-same endgame, kinda-same actions, kinda-same dialogue. Stuff happens to different people or from different people, different stuff happens that seems the same, endgames are different, but still seem the same.

It's actually really a perfect comparison.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You really don't see the similarities?

They are basically the same. Kinda-same endgame, kinda-same actions, kinda-same dialogue. Stuff happens to different people or from different people, different stuff happens that seems the same, endgames are different, but still seem the same.

It's actually really a perfect comparison.

No, I don't see the similarities.. WoK and STID have absolutely nothing in common except little bits here and there and of course the name of the antagonist. The plot is completely different, and I really mean competely. Name me one plot point that is covered in both movies except the silly "sacrifice" at the end. Characters are in utterly different stages of their lives and/or mental places where their motives and characterisations are concerned.

Wrath of Khan is a movie about age finally catching up to Kirk and company; they aren't the dashing heroes of yesteryear anymore, able to find a way out of any bad situation. His best friend, not some redshirt loser, has to die to save the ship. Kobayashi Maru no-win scenarios indeed do happen in real life and Kirk simply wasn't ready for them. This was an occasion where he couldn't cheat death. His roguish womanising is also shown as having real consequences - he got a son he doesn't know what to do with.

Wrath of Khan is a total opposite of Into Darkness on nearly every front. The former is a movie about aging and coming to terms with your life and your limitations. The latter... I don't know what it stands for. It desperately wants to say something, true, and it wants to be relevant and topical, but it pays only lip service to these notions, all the while wrapped up in Abrams' glossy, lens-flarey package.

Edited by Mr Fixit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That would have worked wonderfully. 100 times more emotional than the head-scratch-inducing thing they did in ep 10.

I've always found Tyrion and Shae's mushy scenes boring, but I'd really had felt for both of them, if the show would have done the above suggested version.

But since Martin has mentioned that he's going to reveal more about that scene (http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/), I guess the show had to put all the same characters in the same scene although they removed the motivations.

Fact is that the book version, while leaving question open, makes sense, the TV version doesn't. The TV version very often leaves the viewers supposing that more will be elaborate in a future ep or season.... Didn't happen yet.

Thanks. I read through the article you linked, very interesting. the following quote from GRRM is particularly relevant:

"It’s also worth mentioning Shae is one of the characters that really has changed significantly from the books to the TV show. I think that [showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] wrote Shae very differently, and a symbol to Sibel Kekilli — the incredible girl playing her. Shae is much more sincere in her affections for Tyrion. This is almost contradictory, but with the Shae in the TV series, you can tell she actually has real feelings for Tyrion — she challenges him, she defies him. The Shae in the books is a manipulative camp-follower prostitute who doesn’t give a s–t about Tyrion any more than she would any other john, but she’s very compliant, like a little teenage sex kitten, feeding all his fantasies; she’s really just in it for the money and the status. She’s everything lord Tywin thought Tyrion’s first wife was that she actually wasn’t. So there are all layers of complexity going on here. They’re the same character, but they’re also very different characters, and I think that’s going to lead to very different resonances playing out in the TV show than in the books."

It says it was published very recently, but the comments suggest he thought it would play out differently. I'd be interested to learn when he said this. I can't recall which episode it was, but I know GRRM provided a commentary for one of the episodes in season 3 in which he mentions the changes to Shae's character as the biggest cause of dispute between him and D&D. They must have known the problems it would cause and yet they did nothing to alter the repercussions accordingly.

I love the show - It's what made me interested in reading the books so I'm very grateful - but I can't help the feeling that they've messed up one of the best sections of the books.

Edited by Dolorous Gabe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First season was an adaptation, even seasons 2 and 3, but season 4 went its own way and it's sad to watch.

Absolutely barking. It's clearly an adaptation. Most of the major plot points, events and characters are the same. If you find it so sad to watch then the answer is obvious. Stop watching it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, I don't see the similarities.. WoK and STID have absolutely nothing in common except little bits here and there and of course the name of the antagonist. The plot is completely different, and I really mean competely. Name me one plot point that is covered in both movies except the silly "sacrifice" at the end. Characters are in utterly different stages of their lives and/or mental places where their motives and characterisations are concerned.

Wrath of Khan is a movie about age finally catching up to Kirk and company; they aren't the dashing heroes of yesteryear anymore, able to find a way out of any bad situation. His best friend, not some redshirt loser, has to die to save the ship. Kobayashi Maru no-win scenarios indeed do happen in real life and Kirk simply wasn't ready for them. This was an occasion where he couldn't cheat death. His roguish womanising is also shown as having real consequences - he got a son he doesn't know what to do with.

Wrath of Khan is a total opposite of Into Darkness on nearly every front. The former is a movie about aging and coming to terms with your life and your limitations. The latter... I don't know what it stands for. It desperately wants to say something, true, and it wants to be relevant and topical, but it pays only lip service to these notions, all the while wrapped up in Abrams' glossy, lens-flarey package.

You just highlighted my point.

the deviations in S4 are exactly like Khan and Darness.

Same names, some same story elements and plot points, but ultimately a different message or outcome. A fanfic, not really an adaptation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You really don't see the similarities?

They are basically the same. Kinda-same endgame, kinda-same actions, kinda-same dialogue. Stuff happens to different people or from different people, different stuff happens that seems the same, endgames are different, but still seem the same.

It's actually really a perfect comparison.

I don't at all.

STID did not follow the same story. GoT does.

STID was set in an alternate timeline. GoT is not.

GoT hits every single major occurrence (death, marriage, etc) that happens in the book. STID does not.

They aren't remotely the same. GoT is not a loose adaptation of the source material at all. Changing dialogue and adding a few things to some characters' storylines isn't the same as playing fast and loose with the material. Those are necessary changes required to transcribe the story from one medium to another.

STID is not an adaptation of ST:TWoK. It's an alternate story using some of the same characters.

GoT is an adaptation of ASoIaF because it's the same story with the same characters and the same end point with minor changes.

Edited by sj4iy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

minor changes like Jaime being back way earlier.


minor changes like "the Lannisters send their regards"


minor changes like Arya and Tywin


minor changes like Gendry and Edric


minor changes like Astapor


minor changes like Yunkai


minor changes like Meereen


minor changes like Yara and the Dreadfort


Balon alive


Jojen dead


Hizdahr the good guy


Jorah the loyal


Belwas the nonexistent


Shae the likable


Brienne and the Hound


the Vale and the Hound


Rorge and Biter and the Hound


the Mountain that remains silent


the Bloodraven with the two brown eyes


the skeletons of snow hill


the boy from Molestown


Tysha the forgotten


Shae the attempted murderer


Your Sister


Coldhands the invisible


:


:


:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

minor changes like Jaime being back way earlier.

minor changes like "the Lannisters send their regards"

minor changes like Arya and Tywin

minor changes like Gendry and Edric

minor changes like Astapor

minor changes like Yunkai

minor changes like Meereen

minor changes like Yara and the Dreadfort

Balon alive

Jojen dead

Hizdahr the good guy

Jorah the loyal

Belwas the nonexistent

Shae the likable

Brienne and the Hound

the Vale and the Hound

Rorge and Biter and the Hound

the Mountain that remains silent

the Bloodraven with the two brown eyes

the skeletons of snow hill

the boy from Molestown

Tysha the forgotten

Shae the attempted murderer

Your Sister

Coldhands the invisible

:

:

:

Cutting characters, inventing material and changing lines does not equate to negating the label of "adaptation." This comparison is ridiculous. Also, can you please explain to me how the bolded examples are major deviations in any sense?

Edited by Haldir Monark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You just highlighted my point.

the deviations in S4 are exactly like Khan and Darness.

Same names, some same story elements and plot points, but ultimately a different message or outcome. A fanfic, not really an adaptation.

Come on, man, I'm talking to you in good faith. No reason for this.

My entire previous post was about how STID and WoK didn't have common plot points and story elements. Someone who's read the books but hasn't seen the show will be able to guess almost all the major beats and plot points of Season 4. Okay, no Tysha, Craster's, Yara, etc., but still. Someone who's watched WOK won't have a clue about any single thing happening in STID.

Let's stop here. I have no further interest in this topic.

Edited by Mr Fixit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The episode get's 5/10 from me.


I found it a bit awkward that Brienne defeated the Hound. I mean.. he's the Hound.


The whole Jojen-dying-and-exploding-thing was also a bit messed up, since he might be important for Bran ( there are some theories about that going around).


Jaime and Tyrion just saying goodbye and leaving out Tysha is strange aswell. Seems like the series doesn't care about the change it makes in the relationship of Tyrion and Jaime.


The Stannis invasion was well done. I liked the look that Melisandre and Jon exchanged. Makes it all a bit more mysterious. Also Jon burning Ygritte as a symbol of his deep affection and respect for her was a very nice detail and made me almost cry.


Best part was Arya entering that ship and the reaction of the captain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×